AMD Llano - THE great HTPC chip? - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 880 Old 07-06-2011, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

Actually I like Llano very much. Finally I can get superb PQ of madVR without adding a discrete graphics (DXVA/EVR is also very nice). Once A6-3600 65W is released, that will be the best option for SFF + madVR.

Is there an option for HW DI on AMD GPUs?

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post #362 of 880 Old 07-06-2011, 04:03 PM - Thread Starter
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@renethx
Do you have any power consumption figures for Llano? I'm particularly interested if the A6-3600 can be "safely" used for relatively CPU+GPU intensive gaming (Starcraft II) inside the Rosewill RC-CIX-01 with 150W PSU (which will likely deliver only 100W or so).
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post #363 of 880 Old 07-06-2011, 05:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilovejedd View Post

It really is all about the pricing. If the A6-3600 65W is priced at ~$100, it'd probably sell like hotcakes. I'd definitely go for one of those. At $120 for the A6-3650 and $140 for the A8-3850, meh...

By the way, are there any reviews of the A6-3650? From memory, it has 320 SP compared to 400 SP on the A8-3850 so it'll certainly be interesting to see if there's a noticeable difference in performance or if the latter is just extremely bandwidth limited.

I feel A6-3600 competes against 2100, so its proper price is still $110-$120. Processor is surely weaker, but the main advantages are

- Substantial hardware graphics cores
- Hence suitable for madVR (actually this is the only integrated GPU that can be used with madVR), as well as light gaming
- If you like AMD graphics (I mean in the DXVA/EVR framework), then you can enjoy it at a lower cost in SFF without worrying about adding a discrete card.

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post #364 of 880 Old 07-06-2011, 05:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by babgvant View Post

Is there an option for HW DI on AMD GPUs?

Yes, Llano is no different from other AMD's discrete graphics cards.

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post #365 of 880 Old 07-06-2011, 07:29 PM
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Download

If you are building an APU system, you will need

- Catalyst 11.6b
- A75 chipset driver (USB 3.0 controller etc., included in the mb CD-ROM)
- Drivers for other chips such as LAN, audio codec, extra SATA controller etc. (included in the mb CD-ROM)

and

- AMD System Monitor

is sometimes useful to check GPU utilization.

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post #366 of 880 Old 07-06-2011, 10:35 PM
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Quick measurements of the power consumption of the total system by Kill-A-Watt.

- APU: A8-3850
- MB: ASUS F1A75-V PRO
- Memory: DDR3-1600 2 x 2GB
- HDD: WD20EARS 3.5" HDD
- PSU: Enermax MODU82+ 520W (not efficient in the range < 100W)

At 1.412V (default voltage)

- Idle: 36W
- Video playback
  24p 60i 60p
DXVA/EVR 60W 77W 83W
madVR 105W 110W 113W
- Prime95 + FurMark: 172W

Too high? I checked core voltage, it's 1.412V. I lowered it to 1.212V (i.e. by 0.2V).

At 1.212V

- Idle: 36W
- Video playback
  24p 60i 60p
DXVA/EVR 50W 54W 68W
madVR 67W 90W 90W
- Prime95 + FurMark: 137W

I haven't seen any stability issue. 1.412V looks too conservative.

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post #367 of 880 Old 07-06-2011, 11:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by babgvant View Post

Is there an option for HW DI on AMD GPUs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

Yes, Llano is no different from other AMD's discrete graphics cards.

I am sure Andy didn't mean that He probably wanted to know whether you can get HW DI when you use madVR.

I think the answer is NO (unlike NVIDIA GPUs where you can use LAV CUVID to get HW DI and then post process with madVR also)

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post #368 of 880 Old 07-06-2011, 11:45 PM
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Yes, the lack of HW DI is the biggest issue of AMD GPU under madVR. The yadif software deinterlacer is a good choice (PQ is between Motion adaptive and Vector adaptive).

HW = non-host, in this case GPU's stream processors
SW = host, i.e. processor

HW DI = software (by AMD/NVIDIA driver) + stream processors
SW DI = software + processor

If somebody thinks up a nice software deinterlacer that uses GPU's stream processors, like madVR, then it will be also called "HW DI".

BTW, jakmal, have you played 1080p60 with dynamic contrast disabled? I see zero dropped frame once it is disabled.

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post #369 of 880 Old 07-06-2011, 11:54 PM
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Compare:

ffdshow Video Decoder (yadif)

CyberLink Video Decoder (DXVA, Auto)

Detailed settings are here if somebody is interested.

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post #370 of 880 Old 07-06-2011, 11:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

Yes, the lack of HW DI is the biggest issue of AMD GPU under madVR. yadif software deinterlacer is a good choice (PQ is between Motion adaptive and Vector adaptive).

Yadif is pretty good for cheese slices, but take a look at the S&M edge adaptive deinterlacing clip (or even the Video Resolution clips in HQV benchmark), the quality is pretty bad when compared with HW DI (all software deinterlacing algos have that problem.

Quote:


BTW, jakmal, have you played 1080p60 with dynamic contrast disabled? I see zero dropped frame once it is disabled.

Got some other review items in the queue, so the Llano testbed is currently packed up until a new driver arrives (or I get a bit free from the current workload, whichever is earlier)

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post #371 of 880 Old 07-07-2011, 12:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jakmal View Post

Yadif is pretty good for cheese slices, but take a look at the S&M edge adaptive deinterlacing clip (or even the Video Resolution clips in HQV benchmark), the quality is pretty bad when compared with HW DI (all software deinterlacing algos have that problem.

No, that's a fundamental misunderstanding. ffdshow+yadif never works with interlaced VC-1 (the format of both S&M and HQV). Interlaced VC-1 must be re-encoded to interlaced H.264 if you want to use yadif. Fortunately there are not so many interlaced VC-1 BDs (only 16 US BDs).

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post #372 of 880 Old 07-07-2011, 12:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

No, that's a fundamental misunderstanding. ffdshow+yadif never works with interlaced VC-1 (the format of both S&M and HQV). Interlaced VC-1 must be re-encoded to interlaced H.264 if you want to use yadif. Fortunately there are not so many interlaced VC-1 BDs (only 16 US BDs).

S&M is interlaced VC-1, but HQV is not.

In fact, the HQV clip is MPEG-2, and the particular test clip's Mediainfo is as below:

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Spoiler  
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

General
ID : 0
Complete name : \\\\DISKStation\\media\ estclips\\hqv_benchmark\\00005.m2ts
Format : BDAV
Format/Info : Blu-ray Video
File size : 242 MiB
Duration : 1mn 0s
Overall bit rate : 33.7 Mbps
Maximum Overall bit rate : 48.0 Mbps

Video
ID : 4113 (0x1011)
Menu ID : 1 (0x1)
Format : MPEG Video
Format version : Version 2
Format profile : Main@High
Format settings, Matrix : Default
Duration : 1mn 0s
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 32.0 Mbps
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 29.970 fps
Colorimetry : 4:2:0
Scan type : Interlaced
Scan order : Top Field First
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.515
Stream size : 230 MiB (95%)

Audio
ID : 4352 (0x1100)
Menu ID : 1 (0x1)
Format : AC-3
Format/Info : Audio Coding 3
Duration : 1mn 0s
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 192 Kbps
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Channel positions : L R
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Video delay : -67ms
Stream size : 1.38 MiB (1%)

Ganesh T S
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post #373 of 880 Old 07-07-2011, 01:07 AM
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I mean v1.

- SD HQV Benchmark v1: MPEG-2
- HD HQV Benchmark v1: VC-1

Interlaced VC-1 with ffdshow (wmv9+yadif) = Weave.

All screenshots below were taken with A8-3850 + ffdshow (ffmpeg-mt/libmpeg2+yadif) + EVR (to take a screenshot by Alt+I inside MPC HomeCinema). Overall the yadif software deinterlacer is not better than AMD's Vector Adaptive, but much better than Motion adaptive.

SD HQV Benchmark v1 > Jaggies Test Pattern 1

HD HQV Benchmark v1 > Video Resolution Loss Test (00012.m2ts was first converted to interlaced H.264 by x264; compare with these screenshots):

S&M > Edge Adaptive Deinterlacing > Ship (00050.m2ts was first converted to interlaced H.264 by x264):


LL
LL
LL

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post #374 of 880 Old 07-07-2011, 05:44 AM
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Hey guys --- I have added a few Llano options to my sticky guide.

Thanks!


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post #375 of 880 Old 07-07-2011, 08:31 AM - Thread Starter
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AMD to have a triple-core desktop Llano
Quote:


A6-3500 is the name

We managed to confirm that AMD will have a triple-core version of the A6 chip that is quite similar to the A6-3600 except for the fact that it has one core less.

The specs are pretty much identical to the A6-3600, a quad-core part with Turbo Core function. The A6-3500 has Radeon HD 6530D graphics with 320 stream processors and a 433MHz GPU clock. The CPU part of the APU has three cores ticking at 2.1GHz (2.4GHz with Turbo), 3MB of L2 Cache, support for 1866MHz DDR3 memory and a TDP of 65W.

Unfortunately, we don't have a specific release date but this one might show up together with the quad-core A6-3600 that is scheduled for "sometime in Q3".

Hmm, me likey. This might be the one I end up buying. The Athlon II X3 Rana were excellent values. Indeed, their price/performance made the Athlon II X2 Regor and X4 Propus somewhat superfluous. Hopefully, the A6-3500 would continue the Rana's legacy.
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post #376 of 880 Old 07-07-2011, 10:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

ffdshow Video Decoder (yadif)
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attac...1&d=1308518944

All those motion masking artifacts on the bottom text get irritating. My satellite box has the same problem.
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post #377 of 880 Old 07-07-2011, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilovejedd View Post

AMD to have a triple-core desktop Llano

Hmm, me likey. This might be the one I end up buying. The Athlon II X3 Rana were excellent values. Indeed, their price/performance made the Athlon II X2 Regor and X4 Propus somewhat superfluous. Hopefully, the A6-3500 would continue the Rana's legacy.

What advantage would the A6-3500 have versus the A6-3600 if everything (GPU, TDP etc) is the same except one less core?

By "Rana's legacy" are you referring to, IIRC, the processors that were cheaper because they had one less core which was disabled by AMD but could be enabled by certain motherboards thus giving the user "one free core"?

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post #378 of 880 Old 07-07-2011, 11:06 AM
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Haven't been following this long thread, but simply is the new GPU in the new processors able to output HDMI 1.4 on the motherboard so that full 7.1 Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio sound can be sent out now unlike the previous boards that would only do 2 channel?
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post #379 of 880 Old 07-07-2011, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H8nXTC View Post

Haven't been following this long thread, but simply is the new GPU in the new processors able to output HDMI 1.4 on the motherboard so that full 7.1 Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio sound can be sent out now unlike the previous boards that would only do 2 channel?

Dont recall where I read it, but atleast one of the reviews I've read addressed this and the answer, I believe, is yes! Maybe one of the more experienced folks can correct me /confirm this?

-Topper
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post #380 of 880 Old 07-07-2011, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H8nXTC View Post

Haven't been following this long thread, but simply is the new GPU in the new processors able to output HDMI 1.4 on the motherboard so that full 7.1 Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio sound can be sent out now unlike the previous boards that would only do 2 channel?

I would assume so since you can bitstream HD Audio with these from the APU

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post #381 of 880 Old 07-07-2011, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H8nXTC View Post

Haven't been following this long thread, but simply is the new GPU in the new processors able to output HDMI 1.4 on the motherboard so that full 7.1 Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio sound can be sent out now unlike the previous boards that would only do 2 channel?

Yes. It basically has a built-in 6450 card which can do all of the above.


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post #382 of 880 Old 07-07-2011, 12:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by topperdude View Post

What advantage would the A6-3500 have versus the A6-3600 if everything (GPU, TDP etc) is the same except one less core?

Price.

Quote:
Originally Posted by topperdude View Post

By "Rana's legacy" are you referring to, IIRC, the processors that were cheaper because they had one less core which was disabled by AMD but could be enabled by certain motherboards thus giving the user "one free core"?

Even if you're unable to unlock the extra core, Rana provided excellent price/performance value as is. It's the value for $ that made it a great choice for budget builds.
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post #383 of 880 Old 07-07-2011, 01:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

- Hence suitable for madVR (actually this is the only integrated GPU that can be used with madVR), as well as light gaming

Are you saying that Zacate isn't powerful enough for madVR (even with hardware acceleration with CyberLink Video Decoder HAM)?

I'm trying to get Zacate working with madVR, but have a lot of dropped frames.

If Zacate isn't poweful enough, then I'll switch to Llano
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post #384 of 880 Old 07-07-2011, 04:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msgohan View Post

All those motion masking artifacts on the bottom text get irritating. My satellite box has the same problem.

Perhaps you will watch Live TV and recordings with WMC or something else under DXVA/EVR. Then you won't see such artifacts (unless you go with the lowest end AMD/NVIDIA discrete graphics card or Intel HD Graphics).

Many people use MPC HomeCinema with madVR to play (ripped) DVD/BD and in such a case yadif is good enough for video-based contents.

If you want to use madVR for every content in the best quality, NVIDIA (GT 440 GDDR5 or higher) + LAV CUVID Decoder is the only solution.

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post #385 of 880 Old 07-07-2011, 04:31 PM
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July-August
APU Cores Clock L2 Cache GPU Cores Clock TDP Price
A8-3850 4 2.9GHz 4MB HD 6550D 400 600MHz 100W $135
A8-3800 4 2.4-2.7GHz 4MB HD 6550D 400 600MHz 65W  
A6-3650 4 2.6GHz 4MB HD 6530D 320 443MHz 100W $115
A6-3600 4 2.1-2.4GHz 4MB HD 6530D 320 443MHz 65W  
Q4
APU Cores Clock L2 Cache GPU Cores Clock TDP Price
A8-3870 4   4MB          
A8-3820 4   4MB          
A6-3670 4   4MB          
A6-3620 4   4MB          
A6-3500 3 2.1-2.4GHz 3MB HD 6530D 320 443MHz 65W  
A4-3400 2 2.7GHz 1MB HD 6410D 160 600MHz 65W  
A4-3300 2 2.5GHz 1MB HD 6410D 160 600MHz 65W  
Compare:

HD 6570/6670: 480 cores, 650/800MHz
HD 5570/5670: 400 cores, 650/775MHz
HD 5550: 320 cores, 550MHz

Basically

HD 6550D = HD 5570 with lower clock, UVD3 and poorer memory architecture
HD 6530D = HD 5550 with lower clock, UVD3 and poorer memory architecture

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post #386 of 880 Old 07-07-2011, 04:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtosic View Post

Are you saying that Zacate isn't powerful enough for madVR (even with hardware acceleration with CyberLink Video Decoder HAM)?

I'm trying to get Zacate working with madVR, but have a lot of dropped frames.

If Zacate isn't poweful enough, then I'll switch to Llano

If you ask me, I would recommend you to stay far away from Zacate. That crap is not intended for serious video playback. BTW the number of graphics cores in Zacate is only 80 (well maybe good enough for madVR + a discrete card such as HD 5450, but...).

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post #387 of 880 Old 07-07-2011, 05:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

If you ask me, I would recommend you to stay far away from Zacate. That crap is not intended for serious video playback.

Zacate certainly has limitations, but it's not that different from ION in application. There are use cases and budgets where it makes sense.

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post #388 of 880 Old 07-08-2011, 12:26 AM
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Originally Posted by renethx View Post

If you ask me, I would recommend you to stay far away from Zacate. That crap is not intended for serious video playback. BTW the number of graphics cores in Zacate is only 80 (well maybe good enough for madVR + a discrete card such as HD 5450, but...).

Well, a bit late for that When I was buying Zacate, I wasn't aware of madVR
But Zacate works great in WMC7 + MediaBrowser + Shark007 codecs setup.
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post #389 of 880 Old 07-08-2011, 06:02 AM
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Newegg has two available in the $70 price range. One of them has a mail in rebate that drops the price to $60. As expected, limited features, but adequate for a simple HTPC.

Both are probably limited to one digital video out (HDMI) only. I say probably because NE does not have photos yet, and the ECS mfg product page lists "DVI (optional)" for the A75F-M2 (V1.0).

The ECS one also has SPDIF out as internal IO, for old-timers like me.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813135294
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post #390 of 880 Old 07-08-2011, 06:13 AM
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Originally Posted by ilovejedd View Post

Price.


Even if you're unable to unlock the extra core, Rana provided excellent price/performance value as is. It's the value for $ that made it a great choice for budget builds.

I have two tri-core AMD CPUs. They were good values, even though neither operated reliably with the fourth core unlocked.

The upcoming tri-core Llano would appeal to value-conscious shoppers such as myself.

They would be a good match for the ~$70 MBs that are now available.

Hopefully we'll find out soon how much the 65W quad-core LLanos cost.
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