AMD Llano - THE great HTPC chip? - Page 19 - AVS Forum
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post #541 of 880 Old 09-09-2011, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffkro View Post

You don't think the A4 series will be able to do 1080p60 with post processing turned off?
Curious, what is the minimum cpu necessary for doing 1080p60 purely in software, on the CPU, and with no offloading to a gpu?

This is purely a guess from my experience with HD 6450 (sp 160) DDR3-1333 and GDDR5-3200. The DDR3 version can't handle 1080p60 whichever post-processors are disabled. The GDDR5 version can play 1080p60 perfectly if MNR and DB are disabled (ESVP was [and is still with 11.8] broken).

Decoding 1080p60 by CPU is pretty easy with any decent dual-core processor (Pentium E5200 2.5GHz [Wolfdale] could do it perfectly with ~90% CPU usage).
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post #542 of 880 Old 09-09-2011, 01:52 PM
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Good points: I've already settled on J.River Media Center for most HTPC media playback (I still have to use WMC7 for PC-based cable TV) and given this setup, I still think the pending A8-3800 makes the most sense as JRMC uses MadVR and its HQ setting for video should benefit from the more potent IGP in this chip. Though I know I could do better on the video processing front with a dedicated GPU, I'm attracted to the eloquence and simplicity of a IGP solution.

In a ideal world for the near-term I'd love to see AMD release something like a ~ $100 A4 dual core combined with the 6550 IGP but if the A8-3800 can work within 65W TDP I can live with it for the near-term.

Now I just need Newegg to offer it plus A55 mobos, as all other HTPC components are in place...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffkro View Post

I'm guessing AMD was pressuring mobo manufacturers not to release the A55 until the A4's were out. The goal being to push potential buyers into buying the higher end stuff for a while and then releasing the bargain stuff. Intel always does this with their processors, like holding off on the pentium and then celeron lines. So what I'm saying is I expect the A55 boards to be on the market very soon. If they delay to long I guess I could go celeron, but I think llano has a lot more HTPC potential.

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post #543 of 880 Old 09-09-2011, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

This is purely a guess from my experience with HD 6450 (sp 160) DDR3-1333 and GDDR5-3200. The DDR3 version can't handle 1080p60 whichever post-processors are disabled. The GDDR5 version can play 1080p60 perfectly if MNR and DB are disabled (ESVP was [and is still with 11.8] broken).

Decoding 1080p60 by CPU is pretty easy with any decent dual-core processor (Pentium E5200 2.5GHz [Wolfdale] could do it perfectly with ~90% CPU usage).

I guess I'm not 100% clear on how the processing works. I thought if the gpu can't handle it by itself the cpu kind of steps in to finish the job. So say you had the 6450 DDR3-1333 card on a SB core i5 system, would the system as a whole play 1080p60 without dropped frames?
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post #544 of 880 Old 09-09-2011, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffkro View Post

So say you had the 6450 DDR3-1333 card on a SB core i5 system, would the system as a whole play 1080p60 without dropped frames?

If you use a non-DXVA (and non-NVIDIA CUDA, non-AMD APP) video decoder, the result is independent of the graphics card. It depends on the quality of the decoder and the performance of CPU.
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post #545 of 880 Old 09-09-2011, 03:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

This is purely a guess from my experience with HD 6450 (sp 160) DDR3-1333 and GDDR5-3200. The DDR3 version can't handle 1080p60 whichever post-processors are disabled. The GDDR5 version can play 1080p60 perfectly if MNR and DB are disabled (ESVP was [and is still with 11.8] broken).

renethx, are you sure about this? In my observation, turning off all the post processing in CCC ensured that the MSI 6450 (DDR3) was able to play back the 1080p60 clip.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/4380/d...pus-shootout/8

(Last 2 snaps in the ESVP gallery are from the MSI 6450, showing that enabling ESVP makes it incapable of 1080p60 H264 decode with DXVA)

I haven't tried out the last few Catalyst releases. Disappointing to note that this simple problem (just need to turn off all post processing for 1080p60 clips) is not fixed yet.

By the way, I noticed that you mentioned that the 1080p60 clips can play back without disabling noise reduction in the highest end Llano.. This wasn't the case at launch time.. Has this been fixed in a recent Catalyst release?

Ganesh T S
Sr. Editor, AnandTech Inc.
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post #546 of 880 Old 09-09-2011, 04:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilovejedd View Post

Note, though, if your total budget is $130 for MB/CPU/RAM, you'll likely get a not so nice uATX motherboard. It really depends on what features your current P35 board has if it's worth re-using (e.g. mine has 8xSATA which is definitely nice). More so if you also need to purchase expensive, obsolete DDR2 RAM. Heck, you can get 8GB DDR3 for $40 nowadays. For a virtualization rig, that's definitely the way to go.

This is really off-topic, but.

Yeah, I was going cheap on the RAM because of that $22 (with MIR) for 4 GB special. 8 GB makes more sense. There's nothing special about the existing Intel DP35DP MB, and certainly nothing special about the $50 H61 MB.

The video card is a HD2400 Pro. This system was basically sitting unused: I think I kept it around because it has the "other" OS on it: Vista. All the other systems run Win7. I was thinking of turning this over to my wife after upgrading the CPU, but then I have need of a virtualization rig now. One fleeting thought led to another...
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post #547 of 880 Old 09-11-2011, 08:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CountRock View Post

A8-3800 is finally shipping! YAY! I am so happy!

Edit: Dammit I cannot post links

Did a quick Google search:
http://www.google.com/products/catal...ed=0CEMQ8wIwAw

Which place did you see it at and what was the price?
Amazon has the A8-3850 for $128 shipped today...tempting...

Noticed Amazon has the A8-3800 too...for $156 :-O
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post #548 of 880 Old 09-15-2011, 01:30 PM
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Anyone run across a A4-3400 review thats relevant for HTPC's yet. I'm starting to think llano is old news and the tech sites are going to ignore it.
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post #549 of 880 Old 09-15-2011, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffkro View Post
Anyone run across a A4-3400 review thats relevant for HTPC's yet. I'm starting to think llano is old news and the tech sites are going to ignore it.
FWIW, I don't think Llano is old news. There's a lot of interesting stuff to look at with the platform.
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post #550 of 880 Old 09-15-2011, 02:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by babgvant View Post
FWIW, I don't think Llano is old news. There's a lot of interesting stuff to look at with the platform.
Indeed: The Egg only started offering the A4-3400 a few days ago. As for me, I'm still (now impatiently) waiting on the A8-3800...
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post #551 of 880 Old 09-15-2011, 05:44 PM
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This is an interesting A8-3800 review that mentions how well it overclocks:
http://lanoc.org/review/motherboards...-3800?start=13
Otherwise, it's apparently slower than the A6-3650 for pure CPU tasks.
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post #552 of 880 Old 09-16-2011, 02:07 PM
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A55 chipset motherboards available at newegg. The cheapest one so far is $65, but I imagine the price will start going down.
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post #553 of 880 Old 09-16-2011, 04:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenyee View Post

This is an interesting A8-3800 review that mentions how well it overclocks:
http://lanoc.org/review/motherboards...-3800?start=13
Otherwise, it's apparently slower than the A6-3650 for pure CPU tasks.

It's good to know that the OC capability is there (I was pleasantly surprised at the extent of it while remaining stable) but whenever I get my hands on the A8-3800 I'm going to try it at stock speeds first to see if it plays my media properly. If it does then I won't have to overclock anything. Conversely, if media performance does suffer perhaps I'll play around with OC while recognizing that I'll have to keep an eye on CPU heat.
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post #554 of 880 Old 09-16-2011, 04:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffkro View Post

A55 chipset motherboards available at newegg. The cheapest one so far is $65, but I imagine the price will start going down.

One would hope so: As is I think the ASRock A75M-HVS makes more sense for $5 more-Actually a net of $3 more when shipping is considered.
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post #555 of 880 Old 09-16-2011, 06:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffkro View Post

A55 chipset motherboards available at newegg. The cheapest one so far is $65, but I imagine the price will start going down.

The "$65" Asrock A55 MB is actually $59 when you click on it. When you add it to your cart it still remains $59.

$59 (plus shipping) is a more competitive price to Asrock's own H61M-GE MB. This H61M-GE I've been looking at comes with FOUR memory slots, optical SPDIF and three video connectors. Only four SATA connectors vs. the A55's six though....

But, at least the A55s are finally in the US.
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post #556 of 880 Old 09-16-2011, 07:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by babgvant View Post

FWIW, I don't think Llano is old news. There's a lot of interesting stuff to look at with the platform.

I just hope review sites don't feel that it's not necessary to review the newer APUs because the earlier ones have been already.

I only have 1080/24p videos (no interlaced) so I'm wondering if I should go with an A4-3400 or A6-3500. There isn't much of a price difference, so I might just go with the A6-3500.
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post #557 of 880 Old 09-17-2011, 12:10 AM
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Ever so slightly off topic but does anyone have any idea about Llano's power usage?

Basically I've just bought an ASUS F1A75-I Deluxe and am planning to get a A8-3800 (assuming they get cheaper as they're currently more than a 3850!), but the case I had in mind (Cooler Master Elite 100) only has a 150w power supply and the motherboard manual says you should have 300w minimum...

I have the sneaking suspicion that I already know the answer to this question but do you think 150w ever be up to the job, especially with an SSD, HDD and an optical drive as well?
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post #558 of 880 Old 09-17-2011, 01:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Neimad View Post

Ever so slightly off topic but does anyone have any idea about Llano's power usage?

Basically I've just bought an ASUS F1A75-I Deluxe and am planning to get a A8-3800 (assuming they get cheaper as they're currently more than a 3850!), but the case I had in mind (Cooler Master Elite 100) only has a 150w power supply and the motherboard manual says you should have 300w minimum...

I have the sneaking suspicion that I already know the answer to this question but do you think 150w ever be up to the job, especially with an SSD, HDD and an optical drive as well?

A 150W PSU is enough. I ran Prim95 (CPU stress) and FurMark (GPU stress) simultaneously with an A8-3850 system. The power consumption of the total system (A8-3850, A75 mb, 1 x HDD, a 80 Plus Bronze PSU) was 178W. The DC draw from PSU is ~ 178W x 0.85 = 151W. A8-3800 consumes ~30W less power, so a 120W PSU should be (barely) fine.
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post #559 of 880 Old 09-17-2011, 06:54 AM
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Has anyone had a chance to test the image quality of DVDs and Blu-rays with an A8-3850? I can't notice a difference during video playback, but I can when comparing screenshots between the A8-3850 and AMD dGPUs; both 3650 and 5770.

I first noticed it when comparing file sizes of screenshots between the iGPU and dGPUs; I noticed a 2.5% difference in the DVD screenshots of Gladiator and a 1.5% difference in the Blu-ray screenshots of Gamer. As a result, I opened up the images in Photoshop and could see that there was a slight difference between screenshots. VA deinterlacing was used for the DVD screenshots and confirmed working correctly. The fact that two different AMD dGPUs end up with the same image quality should mean that the A8-3850 should end up with the same too, when using the exact same frame.

I normally use MPC HC with the Cyberlink Video/SP Decoder (PDVD8) for DVD playback and the MPC Video Decoder for Blu-ray playback and tested with the same version of MPC HC to ensure the player wasn't the issue. I also tested with the latest version of MPC HC, v1.5.3.3677, with the same results.

I'm assuming that it's as a result of the A8-3850 being so new that either the AMD drivers aren't taking advantage of the iGPU or MPC HC isn't. I've ensured that all GPU video settings that could possibly effect video quality are turned off, e.g. Dynamic contrast, Edge-enchancement, De-noise etc.

Does anyone have an idea what the cause of this could be or do I simply have to wait for more mature drivers?
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post #560 of 880 Old 09-17-2011, 07:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rsaeire View Post

I noticed a 2.5% difference in the DVD screenshots of Gladiator and a 1.5% difference in the Blu-ray screenshots of Gamer. As a result, I opened up the images in Photoshop and could see that there was a slight difference between screenshots. VA deinterlacing was used for the DVD screenshots and confirmed working correctly.

Gladiator is a movie. VA (or MA or whatever) deinterlacing will be never used. Chroma upsampling errors is reported. You'd better run test patterns to identify your issue.
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post #561 of 880 Old 09-17-2011, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by renethx View Post

Gladiator is a movie. VA (or MA or whatever) deinterlacing will be never used. Chroma upsampling errors is reported. You'd better run test patterns to identify your issue.

Whether it's VA, MA or whatever A, deinterlacing is definitely being used. I might add, it's the PAL DVD I'm using, not NTSC, so pulldown doesn't come into it either.

Cheers for the link as I've read, and forgot about, AnandTech's article. It's very odd what's going on so hopefully something gets sorted. I tested the cheese slices clips already and compared the results, in motion and paused, between both interlaced and progressive files and VA was working successfully.
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post #562 of 880 Old 09-17-2011, 08:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vkristof View Post

This is really off-topic, but.

Yeah, I was going cheap on the RAM because of that $22 (with MIR) for 4 GB special. 8 GB makes more sense. There's nothing special about the existing Intel DP35DP MB, and certainly nothing special about the $50 H61 MB.

The video card is a HD2400 Pro. This system was basically sitting unused: I think I kept it around because it has the "other" OS on it: Vista. All the other systems run Win7. I was thinking of turning this over to my wife after upgrading the CPU, but then I have need of a virtualization rig now. One fleeting thought led to another...

Just out of curiosity, why does 8GB make more sense for HPTC? I put 8GB on my desktop gaming machine but lets face it gaming has much much higher system requirements than playing back video.

My gaming system:
core i5 2400
8GB ram
gts 450 soon to be replaced with 28nm graphics

For HTPC my gaming system would barely know it was doing anything.
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post #563 of 880 Old 09-17-2011, 09:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rsaeire View Post

Whether it's VA, MA or whatever A, deinterlacing is definitely being used. I might add, it's the PAL DVD I'm using, not NTSC, so pulldown doesn't come into it either.

PAL DVD is no different. The original film at 24 fps is sped up to 25 fps, then each frame is decomposed to top and bottom fields (2:2 telecine or pulldown) in PAL DVD at 50 fields/sec. At playback, two fields are combined to a frame (2:2 inverse telecine).

1 2 3 4 ... (25 fps film) -> 1T 1B 2T 2B 3T 3B 4T 4B ... (50 fields/sec DVD) -> 1 2 3 4 ... (25 fps playback)

This is called "film-mode" deinterlacing. Read Wiki 2:2 pulldown (or a book such as "Video Demystified").

"Video-mode" deinterlacing such as VA is completely different. The original content is shot by a video camera at 50 fields per second (in PAL). At playback, the player *creates* the missing fields by sophisticated algorithms (VA, MA, etc.).

1T 2B 3T 4B ... (50 fields/sec original video [DVD, broadcast]) -> 1 2 3 4 ...(50 fps playback)

where 1B is missing and 1 = 1T+1B is created from 1T and other adjacent fields. As this is a guess work at best, there is no perfect solution, unlike film-mode deinterlacing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rsaeire View Post

Cheers for the link as I've read, and forgot about, AnandTech's article. It's very odd what's going on so hopefully something gets sorted. I tested the cheese slices clips already and compared the results, in motion and paused, between both interlaced and progressive files and VA was working successfully.

So exactly what's your problem? Just the size of the screehshot of a DVD movie is different? Any other serious issue?
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post #564 of 880 Old 09-17-2011, 10:02 AM
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I was reading the 2:2 pulldown article this morning but the article mentioned that "A few motion pictures are beginning to be telecined this way" leaving me to think that it wasn't the most popular solution for PAL DVD. Cheers for explaining it by the way, as sometimes Wikipedia can be quite confusing and several articles need to be used to piece together the entire picture.

My question is simply born out of a curiosity to understand why there's a slight difference in file size and image quality between the same frame from a PAL DVD and Blu-ray when using an AMD iGPU and dGPU given that they should both, technically, be capable of providing the exact same image quality.
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post #565 of 880 Old 09-17-2011, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffkro View Post

Just out of curiosity, why does 8GB make more sense for HPTC? I put 8GB on my desktop gaming machine but lets face it gaming has much much higher system requirements than playing back video.

My gaming system:
core i5 2400
8GB ram
gts 450 soon to be replaced with 28nm graphics

For HTPC my gaming system would barely know it was doing anything.

AFAIK, it doesn't. I engaged in this thread initially because I thought I'd update my den HTPC. However, the INITIAL AMD price points for my perceived need were too high for my cheap tastes, so I started looking at the Intel comperition. Since I started doing that I had a real need develop for a virtualization PC, for a course I'm taking. This would be a Windoze PC that could also run Ubuntu as a guest OS.

So the 8 GB came from somebody's useful suggestion that I shouldn't chintz on memory for this yet-to-be purchased PC.
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post #566 of 880 Old 09-17-2011, 12:51 PM
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hello to everybody,

except oc capabilities, soundcards, sata & pci slots are there any differencies between
the cheap a55 & a75 motherboards?

which chipset is better for general HTPC purpose?

and one more question about de-intelacing thing.

is the a8-3800/3850+6550D be capable for double frames (yadif) & madVR in full settings?
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post #567 of 880 Old 09-17-2011, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Tony_Montana View Post

hello to everybody,

except oc capabilities, soundcards, sata & pci slots are there any differencies between
the cheap a55 & a75 motherboards?

which chipset is better for general HTPC purpose?

and one more question about de-intelacing thing.

is the a8-3800/3850+6550D be capable for double frames (yadif) & madVR in full settings?

The A55 chipset is cheaper and the A75 supports more features. I would think both should work fine for HTPC. Two stand out feature missing from the A55 chipset are no USB 3 or 6GB/sec sata connections, but some mobo makers are adding usb 3.

Here is a feature comparison:

http://www.techspot.com/review/418-a...apu/page4.html
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post #568 of 880 Old 09-17-2011, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony_Montana View Post

is the a8-3800/3850+6550D be capable for double frames (yadif) & madVR in full settings?

With DDR3-1866 (2x2GB ~$50),

- yadif + madVR (high quality) without ReClock: no problem
- yadif + madVR (high quality) with ReClock (Best Sinc Interpolation): no problem if GPU is slightly overclocked (600MHz -> 650MHz; btw 650MHz is the default clock of HD 6570.)

AMD's 59.94Hz is pretty accurate, so you may not need ReClock. Well, there are a bunch of BDs with LPCM audio tracks, so you will use ReClock anyway (with HD audio bitstreaming, in which case media adaptation will not be used).
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post #569 of 880 Old 09-19-2011, 09:13 PM
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post #570 of 880 Old 09-20-2011, 06:55 AM - Thread Starter
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That's great news if they can actually deliver. Llano is pretty nice but so far, the product releases have always been a quarter behind Intel so it's been hard for them to compete based on price point which is AMD's traditional bastion.
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