AMD Llano - THE great HTPC chip? - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 880 Old 09-26-2011, 04:26 PM
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It looks like the delay of the 65W versions and the shortage of A8-3850 are due to bad yields (More than 50 less than 60 percent).
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post #632 of 880 Old 09-26-2011, 06:48 PM
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amazon got some a8-3850. also ebay got a a8-3850 for 130. i just bought it last few days on ebay.
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post #633 of 880 Old 09-27-2011, 05:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

It looks like the delay of the 65W versions and the shortage of A8-3850 are due to bad yields (More than 50 less than 60 percent).

Yes: you can guess that GloFo has poor yields for "highest speed" or "high speed and lower power" parts. Don't know what implication this has for the eventual arrival of the FX high end CPUs.

That "APU availability" slide must be many months old and is a good example of AMD's poor execution (and poor communication). It shows a part that isn't available yet (A8-3800), but doesn't show two other parts that you CAN buy (A6-3500 & A4-3300).

I liked this comment to a Fudzilla socket FM2/A85FX chipset blurb that I've excerpted below:

#3 techno 2011-09-26 19:08
I'm getting more and more confused.
Komodo on the Corona platform has been scrapped replaced by the Vishera cpu on Volan platform which will be compatible with AM3+.
See a previous article on FUD
http://www.fudzilla.com/processors/i...orona-platform
But now you say A85FX FM2 is coming out Q1 2012 for Trinity and Komodo????
AMD really need to set the record straight and journalists need to keep up to date.
I'm starting to doubt Vishera/Volan is true, may be just misinformation to con people into buying AM3+ so they get a good BD Zambezi launch when infact Komodo is still going ahead on A85FX FM2.
I'm an informed purchaser and will not buy anything from AMD till they set the record straight.
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post #634 of 880 Old 09-27-2011, 08:58 AM
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Looks like i'm one of the first people here to actually try out the llano. Here's what i've set-up, and here's what i'm having troubles with:

HTPC:
AMD A8-3850 APU
ASUS F1A75-M Pro Motherboard
Xonar PCI Soundcard
Windows 7 - all latest drivers and firmware for everything

TV:
Mitsubishi WD-73640

Receiver:
Harman Kardon AVR 745

Initially I had hooked up my HTPC via HDMI through the receiver, only to discover that it cannot do 1080p pass through. I then wired the HTPC directly to the TV via HDMI and have run optical for audio from the HTPC to the receiver. Oddly enough the motherboard would only do 2 channel stereo over optical. I added a Xonar PCI Soundcard, which lets me specify DTS 7.1, but I'm not sure if its actually working properly. The display on the receiver never seems to change based on the signal coming to it like it does with my PS3.

Anywho, onto the bigger problem) Windows 7 seems to work just fine and movies work great. However, whenever I launched a game like Crysis 2 or Bioshock, initially I had no display at all. The screen would turn blue like its waiting for a device to turn on.

Later I played with some resolution settings, and toggled some scaling options off and on. I didnt think I even changed anything permanently, but oddly enough now displays, but doesnt want to scale or plays in a window in the corner. Even then, the mouse doesnt seem to correspond with the screen. When i run the mouse over the options (new game, continue, options, etc) it doesnt light up or get selected. It's all been very inconsistent. Does anyone have any suggestions? I suspect it has something to do with the scaling options in the catalyst drivers. I know very little about ITC or GFX scaling, and I'm not even sure that's it. Any input or suggestions would be of great help.
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post #635 of 880 Old 09-27-2011, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by politby View Post

Just ordered the same board. Can you take a look at it and see if there is a "mini PCI express" legend by the wifi card socket or if it just says "wlan"?

Trying to find out if that really is a PCIe socket.

thanks

I'm afriad it's not good news...



I guess you were thinking mSATA SSD like I was? That said it's probably a good thing it isn't a mini PCIe socket as the battery would stop you using it, which would probably be more even more annoying!
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post #636 of 880 Old 09-27-2011, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neimad View Post


I'm afriad it's not good news...

I guess you were thinking mSATA SSD like I was? That said it's probably a good thing it isn't a mini PCIe socket as the battery would stop you using it, which would probably be more even more annoying!

No, the plan was/is to plug in a TV tuner card via a miniPCIe to x1 adapter.

I am still hoping. Trial and error will show. Thanks a lot for the pic.
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post #637 of 880 Old 09-27-2011, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by elockett View Post

This is why I think a cheap AMD A4 with near-term migration to Trinity is the better choice for me now, especially if no mobo swap will be required. If we were talking over a year for Trinity I would probably choose differently but given the Q2 2011 ETA (we hope ), I think it makes more sense at this point to skip the A8-3800.

I think I'm coming to the same conclusion. Minimal CPU for now and then Trinity which is probably what we all really want...
Should have picked up the A8-3850 when I saw it as an Amazon deal for $123...
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post #638 of 880 Old 09-27-2011, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by kenyee View Post

I think I'm coming to the same conclusion. Minimal CPU for now and then Trinity which is probably what we all really want...
Should have picked up the A8-3850 when I saw it as an Amazon deal for $123...

Regarding AMD's capability to deliver product when it's introduction date has been rumored/leaked:

I'd keep my my eye on when the FX series (same 32 nm process?) actually appears. This might be useful as an indicator of whether AMD can delivery any retail CPU to any "announced" date.

The last I read, the Fx series will be introed 10/12, ~ 2 weeks from now. If they can deliver the FX series, MAYBE they can delivery retail, desktop Trinity APUs in 2Q2012.

I've basically given up on Llano for the moment, but my needs have shifted and I'm interested in the least expensive APU or SNB/MB combo available now.
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post #639 of 880 Old 09-27-2011, 07:27 PM
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I pulled the trigger on a A4-3400/Gigabyte A75 mobo combo yesterday for $145 shipped. Though it may not be the optimal IGP solution, I'm cautiously optimistic that it will prove adequate for Bluray, TV, and audio playback until better options become available next year.

The good news for HTPC enthusiasts is that it appears we'll have access to IGP-based solutions in the not too distant future powerful enough to eliminate the need for a discrete video card without compromises in AV performance (excluding higher ended gaming). This will be a desirable development in my view.
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post #640 of 880 Old 09-27-2011, 10:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neimad View Post


I'm afriad it's not good news...

I guess you were thinking mSATA SSD like I was? That said it's probably a good thing it isn't a mini PCIe socket as the battery would stop you using it, which would probably be more even more annoying!

On the subject of miniPCI slots, this may be useful for those who are considering miniITX based Llano builds: I received confirmation today from Zotac that their recently announced A75ITX-WiFi motherboard does have a full function miniPCIe socket, so the WiFi module that comes with the board can be replaced with a miniPCIe device such as a TV tuner:

"Dear Sir,The onboard mini PCI-E socket is provided for standard mini PCI-E device. The standard mini PCI-E TV card should be applicable. The SATA drive or mSATA card is not applicable on this socket."

So I will cancel my order for the Asus board and wait for the Zotac, since Asus is apparently unable to tell me if their miniPCIe socket is fully functional. After several days of waiting, their support department sent me a response saying "the x16 slot is full size" when I clearly had asked about the mini slot. Doh.

Or maybe the fact Zotac has a full mPCIe suggests Asus does too, since it is the same chipset. Not sure how much mobo manufacturers tend to differ on such features.
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post #641 of 880 Old 09-28-2011, 12:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by politby View Post

"Dear Sir,The onboard mini PCI-E socket is provided for standard mini PCI-E device. The standard mini PCI-E TV card should be applicable. The SATA drive or mSATA card is not applicable on this socket."

Still looks as though support for mSATA is lacking though -- shame really as for a mini ITX build a small SSD that you could boot from without using any of the (few available) drive bays from the case sounds like a winner.

Quote:
Originally Posted by politby View Post

Or maybe the fact Zotac has a full mPCIe suggests Asus does too, since it is the same chipset. Not sure how much mobo manufacturers tend to differ on such features.

The chipset will provide a certain level of functionality and anything over and above is added as needed; the additional USB3 ports on the Zotac board being a good example (ref AnandTech).
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post #642 of 880 Old 09-28-2011, 12:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neimad View Post


Still looks as though support for mSATA is lacking though -- shame really as for a mini ITX build a small SSD that you could boot from without using any of the (few available) drive bays from the case sounds like a winner.

Agree that could have been a nice feature.
My local etailers have Oct 6 as unconfirmed availability for the Zotac board.

I would still prefer the Asus because of their UEFI bios and generally better reputation for stability. Maybe I will break down and gamble on the mPCIE being usable on the Asus, and get USB tuners if it does not work.
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post #643 of 880 Old 09-28-2011, 02:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ryanazarko View Post

Initially I had hooked up my HTPC via HDMI through the receiver, only to discover that it cannot do 1080p pass through. I then wired the HTPC directly to the TV via HDMI and have run optical for audio from the HTPC to the receiver. Oddly enough the motherboard would only do 2 channel stereo over optical.


My receiver do not have HDMI so i will connect it by optical. Others people have this problem?
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post #644 of 880 Old 09-28-2011, 02:55 AM
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Optical is always limited to 2ch PCM audio. The only way to get 5.1 over Optical is to use a Dolby Surround encoder (typically called Dolby Digital Live). Some Motherboards have this integrated in the audio driver.
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post #645 of 880 Old 09-28-2011, 04:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruceas View Post


My receiver do not have HDMI so i will connect it by optical. Others people have this problem?

The standard itself, and real world implementations, allows the bit rates of Dolby Digital or DTS surround sound to be carried. In addition there is much source material that contains Dolby Digital or DTS surround sound, allowing it to be transported via SPDIF, in your case TOSLINK. For example, if the source material contains this stream, VLC has a setting for A/52 over S/PDIF (Under Audio->Audio device). This will cause my 10-year old Pioneer's front panel to light it's Dolby Digital icon.


The underlying standard that contains SPDIF was developed before the media industry's obsession with copy protection/DRM so the copy protection (if used) is very simple, via SCMS. Here's the old-timey copy protection, again if used:
"SCMS copy protection looks for bits written in the subcode data in a digital link. There are three states of these bits: copy allowed (00), copy once (11) and copy prohibited (10). If the source has the copy bits 00, and a copy is made of the source, the copy itself will have the bit set as 00 as well, allowing copies to be made from copies. If the source has the copy bits set as 11, every copy of this material will have the bits set to 10, and making a copy from the copy would be prohibited."
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post #646 of 880 Old 09-28-2011, 06:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vkristof View Post

Regarding AMD's capability to deliver product when it's introduction date has been rumored/leaked:

I'd keep my my eye on when the FX series (same 32 nm process?) actually appears. This might be useful as an indicator of whether AMD can delivery any retail CPU to any "announced" date.

The last I read, the Fx series will be introed 10/12, ~ 2 weeks from now. If they can deliver the FX series, MAYBE they can delivery retail, desktop Trinity APUs in 2Q2012.

I've basically given up on Llano for the moment, but my needs have shifted and I'm interested in the least expensive APU or SNB/MB combo available now.

Im guessing Trinity will be an easier transition since it will be using the same 32nm process that llano uses. Llano was a new process and a new chip design.
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post #647 of 880 Old 09-28-2011, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by jeffkro View Post

Im guessing Trinity will be an easier transition since it will be using the same 32nm process that llano uses. Llano was a new process and a new chip design.

Yes.

What I'm really saying is that IF you have a real or perceived need for a desktop APU I would not count on desktop Trinity appearing on 4/1/2012.

But hopefully we'll KNOW how Bulldozer actually performs sometime in 4Q2011.

I wish AMD luck: I've got a lot of their AM2, AM2+, AM3 chips in my household.
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post #648 of 880 Old 09-29-2011, 06:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vkristof View Post

Yes.

What I'm really saying is that IF you have a real or perceived need for a desktop APU I would not count on desktop Trinity appearing on 4/1/2012.

But hopefully we'll KNOW how Bulldozer actually performs sometime in 4Q2011.

I wish AMD luck: I've got a lot of their AM2, AM2+, AM3 chips in my household.

Please note that this is not all gloom & doom, just something to keep in mind if you're expecting AMD to roll out new product according to time lines on slides that were created 3-6 months ago (2Q2012 desktop TRinity for example).
From an official AMD announcement regarding revising their revenue Q3 projections downwards:

The less-than-forecasted preliminary third quarter 2011 revenue results are primarily due to 32 nanometer (nm) yield, ramp and manufacturing issues at GLOBALFOUNDRIES in its Dresden, Germany factory that limited supply of "Llano". Additionally, 45nm supply was less than expected due to complexities related to the use of common tools across both technology nodes. AMD continues to work closely with its key partner GLOBALFOUNDRIES to improve 32nm yield performance in order to satisfy strong demand for AMD products.

Switching back to retail: still no 3850 in stock @ NE, nor 3800 listed. And no $50 A55 MBs either. Note that the A55/75 are built on a 65 nm process, so they should not have ben impacted by AMDs 32 & 45 nm supply issues.
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post #649 of 880 Old 09-29-2011, 06:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vkristof View Post

Yes.

What I'm really saying is that IF you have a real or perceived need for a desktop APU I would not count on desktop Trinity appearing on 4/1/2012.

But hopefully we'll KNOW how Bulldozer actually performs sometime in 4Q2011.

I wish AMD luck: I've got a lot of their AM2, AM2+, AM3 chips in my household.

To beat a still-live horse further, see the linked ~11 month old AMD slide that has various new products on new process technologies shown with a year granularity. I really do hope they have the FX (Zambezi) CPUs out in decent quantities in the next 3 months. I'm sure there are plenty of kids who'd love to buy an eight-core FX-8120 for the holidays,

Is AMD still predicting 28 nm E- series APUs for 2012?

http://www.pcinpact.com/affichage/62...sion/96475.htm.
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post #650 of 880 Old 09-29-2011, 07:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post

Optical is always limited to 2ch PCM audio. The only way to get 5.1 over Optical is to use a Dolby Surround encoder (typically called Dolby Digital Live). Some Motherboards have this integrated in the audio driver.

You should be able to bitstream lossy formats without any special encoder. downmixing HD audio is something I'm not familiar with as I bitstream. But ya, optical is limited to 2ch PCM.
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post #651 of 880 Old 09-29-2011, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by ryanazarko View Post

Looks like i'm one of the first people here to actually try out the llano. Here's what i've set-up, and here's what i'm having troubles with:

HTPC:
AMD A8-3850 APU
ASUS F1A75-M Pro Motherboard
Xonar PCI Soundcard
Windows 7 - all latest drivers and firmware for everything

TV:
Mitsubishi WD-73640

Receiver:
Harman Kardon AVR 745

Initially I had hooked up my HTPC via HDMI through the receiver, only to discover that it cannot do 1080p pass through. I then wired the HTPC directly to the TV via HDMI and have run optical for audio from the HTPC to the receiver. Oddly enough the motherboard would only do 2 channel stereo over optical. I added a Xonar PCI Soundcard, which lets me specify DTS 7.1, but I'm not sure if its actually working properly. The display on the receiver never seems to change based on the signal coming to it like it does with my PS3.

Anywho, onto the bigger problem) Windows 7 seems to work just fine and movies work great. However, whenever I launched a game like Crysis 2 or Bioshock, initially I had no display at all. The screen would turn blue like its waiting for a device to turn on.

Later I played with some resolution settings, and toggled some scaling options off and on. I didnt think I even changed anything permanently, but oddly enough now displays, but doesnt want to scale or plays in a window in the corner. Even then, the mouse doesnt seem to correspond with the screen. When i run the mouse over the options (new game, continue, options, etc) it doesnt light up or get selected. It's all been very inconsistent. Does anyone have any suggestions? I suspect it has something to do with the scaling options in the catalyst drivers. I know very little about ITC or GFX scaling, and I'm not even sure that's it. Any input or suggestions would be of great help.

I've found some games have issues with some display / adapter combinations. Games sometimes will default to a specific resolution that your system may not be happy with. In the past I've had to setup the game's default res using a standard monitor, THEN connect it to my preferred display.

BT

Just remember, to the MPAA "We're all guilty until..............."
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post #652 of 880 Old 09-29-2011, 03:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rahzel View Post

You should be able to bitstream lossy formats without any special encoder. downmixing HD audio is something I'm not familiar with as I bitstream. But ya, optical is limited to 2ch PCM.

I looked closer at some files and saw that some had multichannel AAC (mp4a) audio streams. Are there AV rcvrs that can decode AAC streams on SPDIF?
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post #653 of 880 Old 09-29-2011, 05:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by politby View Post

On the subject of miniPCI slots, this may be useful for those who are considering miniITX based Llano builds: I received confirmation today from Zotac that their recently announced A75ITX-WiFi motherboard does have a full function miniPCIe socket, so the WiFi module that comes with the board can be replaced with a miniPCIe device such as a TV tuner:

"Dear Sir,The onboard mini PCI-E socket is provided for standard mini PCI-E device. The standard mini PCI-E TV card should be applicable. The SATA drive or mSATA card is not applicable on this socket."

So I will cancel my order for the Asus board and wait for the Zotac, since Asus is apparently unable to tell me if their miniPCIe socket is fully functional. After several days of waiting, their support department sent me a response saying "the x16 slot is full size" when I clearly had asked about the mini slot. Doh.

Or maybe the fact Zotac has a full mPCIe suggests Asus does too, since it is the same chipset. Not sure how much mobo manufacturers tend to differ on such features.

The asus is a pci-e half minicard slot, the same as on their zacate itx board. The card is most likely an azurewave based on atheros chipset, maybe even the exact same model.

You can usually deduce a slot is wired pci-e when a wlan card is installed, very few (if any) are usb these days. BT and 3G/WWAN cards are the opposite, almost guaranteed to be usb logic. GPS too I think, as serial over usb.

Very few devices bother with usb-only minicard slots by themselves. So far I have only seen them paired with a pci-only minicard slot on laptops. Its a simple way to split a dual function slot into two different ones.

You can forget about msata. So far its only been on intel boards though theres no reason I can figure out that it won't work on amd. (it does with an aftermarket adapter anyways)

edit: I'm dumb and I realize even own an amd board with msata, though its a tablet. I still say no chance on these boards though.

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post #654 of 880 Old 09-29-2011, 11:09 PM
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Originally Posted by kenyee View Post

I think I'm coming to the same conclusion. Minimal CPU for now and then Trinity which is probably what we all really want...
Should have picked up the A8-3850 when I saw it as an Amazon deal for $123...

I like this idea, upgrading in the near future once Trinity comes out. I would like to build a HTPC now, and debating llano (a4-3400) vs. i3-2100, the 2100 seems pretty dated since it's been around for a while.
Anyone have advice on which would be better? Would the upgrade to Trinity even been needed?

I will mostly be streaming 1080p. I plan on running XMBC on linux. is there a problem streaming netflix on linux? The XMBC forums recommend windows 7. What about hardware decoding on AMD using linux?
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post #655 of 880 Old 09-29-2011, 11:18 PM
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The processor part (K10) of A4-3400 (or any Llano) is horrendously outdated (since 2007).

For Linux, I would go with SNB + NVIDIA dGPU.
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post #656 of 880 Old 09-30-2011, 12:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aluminum View Post

The asus is a pci-e half minicard slot, the same as on their zacate itx board. The card is most likely an azurewave based on atheros chipset, maybe even the exact same model.

You can usually deduce a slot is wired pci-e when a wlan card is installed, very few (if any) are usb these days. BT and 3G/WWAN cards are the opposite, almost guaranteed to be usb logic. GPS too I think, as serial over usb.

Very few devices bother with usb-only minicard slots by themselves. So far I have only seen them paired with a pci-only minicard slot on laptops. Its a simple way to split a dual function slot into two different ones.

You can forget about msata. So far its only been on intel boards though theres no reason I can figure out that it won't work on amd. (it does with an aftermarket adapter anyways)

edit: I'm dumb and I realize even own an amd board with msata, though its a tablet. I still say no chance on these boards though.

Thanks, that sounds encouraging. I do not need msata, I need it to be PCIe x1 so I can plug in my TV tuner. I think this will work out nicely.
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post #657 of 880 Old 09-30-2011, 07:59 AM
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Switching back to retail: still no 3850 in stock @ NE, nor 3800 listed. And no $50 A55 MBs either. Note that the A55/75 are built on a 65 nm process, so they should not have ben impacted by AMDs 32 & 45 nm supply issues.

End of Q3, still no 3800 or 3850 @ NE.

However, NE has reduced a Biostar A75 microATX down to $60, after MIR. Free shipping.

Anyway, that seems like a decent price, but Biostar MIGHT have a problem with operating both digital video outs as seperate outputs. If you're interested and want dual independent digital displays, check the HTPC forum. I remember somebody reporting this gotcha with (I think) a Biostar.

If it is this board, maybe that's why they've reduced the price to $60 (after $20 MIR)...
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post #658 of 880 Old 09-30-2011, 08:05 AM
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I haven't been keeping up with the Llanos, is the consensus currently that it is a bust? I was still hoping to replace my Clarkdale mini-ITX HTPC with Llano, but just doesn't seem like things are going anywhere with AMD

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post #659 of 880 Old 09-30-2011, 08:16 AM
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I wouldn't replace Clarkdale with Llano. Trinity or Ivy Bridge ... that's another story ... unless you have an immediate need for something Clarkdale doesn't support?

 

 

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post #660 of 880 Old 09-30-2011, 08:21 AM
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I wouldn't replace Clarkdale with Llano. Trinity or Ivy Bridge ... that's another story ... unless you have an immediate need for something Clarkdale doesn't support?

Two specific reasons:

(1) HDMI 1.4 (Blu-ray 3D)
(2) AMDs better support of open source decoders (this reason in particular is why I don't feel like simply upgrading to another Intel solution and no room in my case for a dGPU)

I am not in a rush

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