AMD Llano - THE great HTPC chip? - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 880 Old 06-01-2011, 11:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by dbone1026 View Post

Since my build is a Mini-ITX I would rather avoid pushing the CPU for video playback via brute force due to heat, etc...

Amazingly, excess heat isn't really as big an issue as you'd expect it to be. Software decoding doesn't appear to use significantly more power than DXVA.
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post #182 of 880 Old 06-01-2011, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilovejedd View Post

No question, though, this is likely a major win for AMD in the mobile segment.

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Originally Posted by whiteboy714 View Post

But the point is that the cpu performance is plenty for what it is aimed at. So with the superior gpu performance at similar pricing to the i3 2100 this is a win for amd imo.

Well, that ignores that these quad core AMD chips are likely to run hotter and draw more power than the i3-2100, and to me that's a bad thing in both the mobile and HTPC markets. In the former it directly affects battery life, and in the latter it produces noise.

I fail to see any advantage in getting a graphics performance increase that is undetectable in anything other than 3D video games, while generating more heat.
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post #183 of 880 Old 06-01-2011, 11:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Zon2020 View Post

Well, that ignores that these quad core AMD chips are likely to run hotter and draw more power than the i3-2100, and to me that's a bad thing in both the mobile and HTPC markets. In the former it directly affects battery life, and in the latter it produces noise.

I fail to see any advantage in getting a graphics performance increase that is undetectable in anything other than 3D video games, while generating more heat.

I would expect mobile AMD processors to have lower TDP and power consumption than desktop counterparts. The thing here is if you wanted to game on your laptop, your only choice used to be bigger, more expensive models (usually 17") with discrete mobile GPU. With Llano, potentially, you can get mainstream laptops with relatively decent gaming performance in the $500~600 range.
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post #184 of 880 Old 06-01-2011, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilovejedd View Post

Amazingly, excess heat isn't really as big an issue as you'd expect it to be. Software decoding doesn't appear to use significantly more power than DXVA.

True, I prefer to stick with DXVA where possible, whether heat, more energy efficient, or maybe I am just full of poop

Cheers,
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post #185 of 880 Old 06-01-2011, 02:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilovejedd View Post

I would expect mobile AMD processors to have lower TDP and power consumption than desktop counterparts. The thing here is if you wanted to game on your laptop, your only choice used to be bigger, more expensive models (usually 17") with discrete mobile GPU. With Llano, potentially, you can get mainstream laptops with relatively decent gaming performance in the $500~600 range.

The mobile TDPs have been leaked before & are either 35W or 45W. Here's an example of the Llano mobile leak:

http://www.nordichardware.se/nyheter...ra-datorer/432
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post #186 of 880 Old 06-01-2011, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by micksh View Post

Digitimes says in July. http://digitimes.com/news/a20110529PD202.html
Not sure who is right, but AMD certainly needs to be more clear about their plans.

Yeah! I burnt some of my time skipping through the videos of their Computex presentation. Not much on the A-series. I think their plans are for further information @ their AFDS in Bellevue, whose June 13-16 dates bracket the June 14 NDA expiration.
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post #187 of 880 Old 06-07-2011, 11:55 AM
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Two Asus mini-ITX MBs (one is Deluxe) have various photos here:

http://www.computerbase.de/bildstrecke/34833/5/

Vr-zone has a short overview of an ECS ATX MB, with photos:
http://vr-zone.com/articles/ecs-a75f...iew/12532.html

A Dutch site was able to run superPii on a briefly un-atttended laptop that contained a A6-3400M APU. The clock frequency matches that of the table that leaked a few weeks ago

http://translate.google.co.uk/transl...%26prmd%3Divns
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post #188 of 880 Old 06-08-2011, 10:53 AM
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NOT the finished product, but this Chinese forum does have an A8-3800 of unknown provenance/unknown revision running in a Gigabyte motherboard. BIOS options are shown.
The (mobile?) NDA lifts on the 14th, so were are getting closer to having real performance numbers:

http://forum.coolaler.com/showthread.php?t=266652

And here is useful-sounding commentary on the published results

Quote:


Quote
Hi all.
As I don't speak Chinese, I will write in English so I hope you understand me .

First of all your Llano is not working at 5.4Ghz, there is a bug in bios.Actual clock speed is around 3Ghz (when you see 5.4GHz in CPUz). The ratio between REAL clock and what you see is around 1.75x. So when you saw 2.4Ghz it was actually locked at 1.4GHz, when you saw 4.7GHz it was performing tests at actual clock of ~ 2.68Ghz .. You get the picture . It is evident from your 3dmark06 CPU test, CPUmark99, superpi and ESPECIALLY AIDA64 results which are all in line with Phenom II @ ~ 3GHz.

So this Llano sample has some "brake" in BIOS that is limiting your multiplier to 15 or 15.5x, even if you manually select 54x.
So to recap everything:
-Llano 's turbo mode is broken on your sample,
-Real clock is 1.75x lower than what CPUz reports (2.4Ghz-> 1.4GHz, 4.7Ghz-> 2.68Ghz, 5.4Ghz-> 3.05Ghz)
-Results are in line with Phenom II, clock per clock, give or take a few percent.

Just wanted to point out this obvious thing to all of you, so you all don't think Llano is slower than K7 at the same clock speed .

Cheers!

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post #189 of 880 Old 06-09-2011, 11:32 AM
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This one is easier to navigate:

全球首曝!AMD Llano A8-3800與技嘉A75-UD4H測試
http://www.coolaler.com/showthread.php?t=266878
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post #190 of 880 Old 06-09-2011, 06:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post
This one is easier to navigate:

全球首曝!AMD Llano A8-3800與技嘉A75-UD4H測試
http://www.coolaler.com/showthread.php?t=266878
Thx.

Where does this A8-3800 (2.7 GHz? base CPU clock) fit into the desktop Llano price table that the "usually not very reliable" DigiTimes published a few weeks ago?

http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20110523PD215.html
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post #191 of 880 Old 06-11-2011, 09:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vkristof View Post

Thx.

Where does this A8-3800 (2.7 GHz? base CPU clock) fit into the desktop Llano price table that the "usually not very reliable" DigiTimes published a few weeks ago?

http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20110523PD215.html

The answer is, it doesn't ("usually not very reliable" DigiTimes ). But it exists in the donanimhaber table

http://www.donanimhaber.com/islemci/...detaylandi.htm

That table lists the A8-3800 with a base clock of 2.4 GHz, Boost of 2.7 GHz. This seems consist with the testing of the leaked A8-3800 samples that are circling the web now.

The clock speeds are not impressive compared to the 1 year+ old Phenoms I have, but I guess you have to look at the A8-3800 for the overall function the APU provides, with a 65 W TDP.

And with the capability to drive tow digital video ports, something the current AMD chipset iGPU seem to lack. Too bad it can't drive three displays...
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post #192 of 880 Old 06-12-2011, 10:53 AM
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post #193 of 880 Old 06-14-2011, 01:05 AM
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The Llano Desktop Preview: AMD A8-3850 CPU & GPU Performance

In summary, CPU is more or less identical with Athlon II X4, hence it's better than Core i3-2100 in some benchmarks and worse in some. GPU is equivalent to HD 6450. No power consumption measurement yet.

Desktop Llano Motherboards: The ASRock A75 Extreme6 Preview

The AMD Llano Notebook Review: Competing in the Mobile Market: Details on the architecture and more.
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post #194 of 880 Old 06-14-2011, 01:51 AM
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post #195 of 880 Old 06-14-2011, 06:48 AM
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Looks like Llano really needs sideport memory to support the gpu. It should still be decent for mid to low end laptops and HTPC but its a pretty big disappointment for desktops. It gets completely destroyed by core i3 matched with a gt430, I'm guessing a SB pentium/gt430 would beat it.
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post #196 of 880 Old 06-14-2011, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by renethx View Post

AMDが発表したメインストリームAPU「Llano」のアーキテクチャ by Goto

Right now the best article on this subject.

I'll take your word for it.
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post #197 of 880 Old 06-14-2011, 07:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

The Llano Desktop Preview: AMD A8-3850 CPU & GPU Performance

In summary, CPU is more or less identical with Athlon II X4, hence it's better than Core i3-2100 in some benchmarks and worse in some. GPU is equivalent to HD 6450. No power consumption measurement yet.

Desktop Llano Motherboards: The ASRock A75 Extreme6 Preview

The AMD Llano Notebook Review: Competing in the Mobile Market: Details on the architecture and more.


Based upon that vastly simplified description (roughly equivalent to Athlon II X4 with 6450), the A8-3850 price should be less than the $170 in that few week old table (A8-3850 = old model A8-3550P) for the Llano to appeal to me:
http://www.donanimhaber.com/islemci/...-bilgileri.htm

So I'm interested in when the official desktop prices come out.
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post #198 of 880 Old 06-14-2011, 07:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by renethx View Post

In summary, CPU is more or less identical with Athlon II X4, hence it's better than Core i3-2100 in some benchmarks and worse in some. GPU is equivalent to HD 6450. No power consumption measurement yet.

If that's already the top Llano, then it doesn't look too good. The saving grace of Llano should have been its GPU. I was expecting something more along HD 5570-level. I'm not sure if the HD 6450 would make the cut for MadVR.
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post #199 of 880 Old 06-14-2011, 07:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilovejedd View Post

If that's already the top Llano, then it doesn't look too good. The saving grace of Llano should have been its GPU. I was expecting something more along HD 5570-level. I'm not sure if the HD 6450 would make the cut for MadVR.

yeah, I was expecting something like that also, but that was w/o much thought at all.
In the case of the Llnao the GPU has to share the BW of the memory controller/actual DDR3 memory with the CPU cores.

The anandtech notebook article repeats some of the info AMD provided about the Llano INTERNALS:

"AMD shared a few choice details about the Llano memory controller architecture. To begin, AMD guarantees more than 30GB/s of bandwidth is available between the GPU and the memory controllerin other words, the path from GPU to the memory controller won't become a bottleneck. The GPU/memory controller link (i.e. within the APU die) can apparently scale up to as much as 50GB/s to support future APUs with even faster memory interfaces. Note that unlike previous integrated graphics solutions, there is no support for dedicated external memorythis is a pure shared memory architecture."

I think the 6450 has a max memory width of 64 bits (maybe 1100MHz tops?), so the Llano DDR3 memory width can be wider and faster.
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post #200 of 880 Old 06-14-2011, 08:01 AM
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I think though when you link in video cards then it becomes a different situation. For what it is, if Anand is right, it's about 50% faster then an i5-2500k in graphic benchmarks.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/4448/a...ance-preview/4

So, depending on cost factors, this could be a good combo for the right applications. I don't really need phenomenal horsepower to be a functional HTPC.
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post #201 of 880 Old 06-14-2011, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by tmservo View Post

I think though when you link in video cards then it becomes a different situation. For what it is, if Anand is right, it's about 50% faster then an i5-2500k in graphic benchmarks.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/4448/a...ance-preview/4

So, depending on cost factors, this could be a good combo for the right applications. I don't really need phenomenal horsepower to be a functional HTPC.

True even zacate is sufficient with the right software.
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post #202 of 880 Old 06-14-2011, 09:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vkristof View Post

yeah, I was expecting something like that also, but that was w/o much thought at all.
In the case of the Llnao the GPU has to share the BW of the memory controller/actual DDR3 memory with the CPU cores.

The anandtech notebook article repeats some of the info AMD provided about the Llano INTERNALS:

"AMD shared a few choice details about the Llano memory controller architecture. To begin, AMD guarantees more than 30GB/s of bandwidth is available between the GPU and the memory controllerin other words, the path from GPU to the memory controller won't become a bottleneck. The GPU/memory controller link (i.e. within the APU die) can apparently scale up to as much as 50GB/s to support future APUs with even faster memory interfaces. Note that unlike previous integrated graphics solutions, there is no support for dedicated external memorythis is a pure shared memory architecture."

I think the 6450 has a max memory width of 64 bits (maybe 1100MHz tops?), so the Llano DDR3 memory width can be wider and faster.

Shipping is ~800 MHz, I believe.

Memory Bandwidth
  • HD 6450 DDR3 800 MHz: 800 MHz * 2 * 64-bit = 102.4 Gb/s or 12.8 GB/s
  • HD 5570 GDDR3 900 MHz: 900 MHz * 2 * 128-bit = 230.4 Gb/s or 28.8 GB/s
  • HD 5570 GDDR5 900 MHz: 900 MHz * 4 * 128-bit = 460.8 Gb/s or 57.6 GB/s

iGPU on Llano is basically Redwood (HD 5570) graphics running at lower core clock and with shared memory. The AnandTech preview wasn't very clear which HD 5570 version they used but if that's just the GDDR3 version, then it's clear the shared memory bandwidth has a big impact on performance.

Theoretical Maximum Memory Bandwidth (dual-channel):
  • DDR3 1066: 17.0 GB/s
  • DDR3 1333: 21.2 GB/s
  • DDR3 1600: 25.6 GB/s
  • DDR3 1866: 30.0 GB/s
Trouble with the above is it'll have to be shared between CPU and GPU. Ouch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tmservo View Post

I think though when you link in video cards then it becomes a different situation. For what it is, if Anand is right, it's about 50% faster then an i5-2500k in graphic benchmarks.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/4448/a...ance-preview/4

So, depending on cost factors, this could be a good combo for the right applications. I don't really need phenomenal horsepower to be a functional HTPC.

The biggest question here is price. If early leaks are correct and it will cost $170, then no thank you. An i3-2100 + HD 5570/GT 430 will give me better performance for the same price and idle/playback power consumption probably wouldn't be all that different. Now if it costs just the same as an i3-2100/i3-2120, Llano's a no-brainer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffkro View Post

True even zacate is sufficient with the right software.

Only if the video themselves can be hardware accelerated. If you're watching, say, WebM, hardware acceleration on current GPU's isn't going to do you any good.
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post #203 of 880 Old 06-14-2011, 10:21 AM
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I think that's a good point. At $170, it would not be a good deal. At around $140, which is closer to what I expect (and I'm betting about what Microcenter will get) it would be a good deal.

Why? Because this, using Microcenter:

I3+H61= $170.. but no USB3 and 2 SATA3. (better boards do offer, but then price goes up)

3850+Board, let's say, $220. Except all SATA is SATA3, and native USB3. So, even in the cheapest option board, I'll have that.

Cost is going to be a real factor. If you can grab a combo at around $200-$225, it should work out very well. Because if you compare it that way, the IGP is basically 50% over a 2500K, which costs as a chip the same as the board and chip combo of an A3850 (guesstimates).

But it will boil down to costs. If the best you can find it is $169 for the CPU only, then yes, this will not work out for many.
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post #204 of 880 Old 06-14-2011, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tmservo View Post

I think though when you link in video cards then it becomes a different situation. For what it is, if Anand is right, it's about 50% faster then an i5-2500k in graphic benchmarks.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/4448/a...ance-preview/4

So, depending on cost factors, this could be a good combo for the right applications. I don't really need phenomenal horsepower to be a functional HTPC.


Yep, cost factors will determine this, and I am looking at it for a HTPC application. I don't need the clock speed of the 3850 (nor it's 100W TPD), and the 320 "Radeon cores" and slower GPU clock of the even lesser models would be fine.
Plus, I'm sure intel will respond.

I just realized: does anybody else have a review of a non-ES desktop part and motherboard?
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post #205 of 880 Old 06-14-2011, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tmservo View Post

I think that's a good point. At $170, it would not be a good deal. At around $140, which is closer to what I expect (and I'm betting about what Microcenter will get) it would be a good deal.

Why? Because this, using Microcenter:

I3+H61= $170.. but no USB3 and 2 SATA3. (better boards do offer, but then price goes up)

3850+Board, let's say, $220. Except all SATA is SATA3, and native USB3. So, even in the cheapest option board, I'll have that.

Cost is going to be a real factor. If you can grab a combo at around $200-$225, it should work out very well. Because if you compare it that way, the IGP is basically 50% over a 2500K, which costs as a chip the same as the board and chip combo of an A3850 (guesstimates).

But it will boil down to costs. If the best you can find it is $169 for the CPU only, then yes, this will not work out for many.

I hadn't bought an Intel MB/CPU in a few years, so I was pleasantly surprised to discover that their H67 chipset (one step above the H61) offers RAID5. This is something the Llano chipsets do not offer, maybe due to their mobile focus.

If you raise the Intel budget (APU & MB) to ~$200 (with the i3 on sale/priced well @ 115) you can get an HTPC that could also operate as a hard drive fault-tolerant media server. You get six SATA ports, though only two are SATA3 and the USB3 is a discrete controller, with only two ports.

If you want to save $$, you can drop HT, go from 4 threads down to two and buy their SB Pentium (2.6 GHz, HD2000 graphics) for ~$40 in savings.

Just further ruminations, since we don't really know what the LLano or their MBs will cost.
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post #206 of 880 Old 06-14-2011, 01:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vkristof View Post

Plus, I'm sure intel will respond.

I think Intel has already responded, or at least done a pre-emptive strike in the form of the Core i3-2105 ($134 1Ku). The i3-2120 might drop down to $117 1Ku and Intel might release a Core i3-2125 to replace the i3-2105 but beyond that, we won't be getting any GPU improvements until Ivy Bridge.

I'm pretty sure the graphics portion is one of the things Intel is trying to greatly improve in Ivy Bridge. It's just unfortunate in Intel's case that they don't have the same wealth of expertise AMD has through its acquisition of ATI.
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post #207 of 880 Old 06-14-2011, 04:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilovejedd View Post

I think Intel has already responded, or at least done a pre-emptive strike in the form of the Core i3-2105 ($134 1Ku). The i3-2120 might drop down to $117 1Ku and Intel might release a Core i3-2125 to replace the i3-2105 but beyond that, we won't be getting any GPU improvements until Ivy Bridge.

I'm pretty sure the graphics portion is one of the things Intel is trying to greatly improve in Ivy Bridge. It's just unfortunate in Intel's case that they don't have the same wealth of expertise AMD has through its acquisition of ATI.

It looks like you need side port memory to get decent graphics performance. Maybe intel is right with just making integrated graphics good enough for multimedia, so long as they fix the 23.xxx fps issue with ivy bridge. Anyone who is into gaming or productivity that requires high end graphics will still want discrete, at least in the near future.

So if Llano graphics is so memory limited does it make much sense to go above the lowest Llano chip? Its only going to perform like a 6450 anyways. So I'm thinking get the A4 and it will solve the shortcomings of zacate, aka not enough grunt for software video decoding and enabling 3D.
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post #208 of 880 Old 06-14-2011, 05:26 PM
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Tom's Hardware -

This benchmark is not perfect in that it’s largely subjective. Having said that, you shouldn’t see more than 10 or 15 points difference between seasoned reviewers using the same hardware and driver versions.

So, how does Llano do? With 191 out of 210 possible points, it performs like a Radeon HD 5570, which is to say, quite well indeed.

The Intel HD Graphics 3000 scores 159 out of 210, which is significantly lower. We’re impressed with Intel HD Graphics 3000’s ability to handle noise and compression artifacts, and to optimize poor skin tones. On the other hand it disappointed us with poor 2:2 Film Resolution cadence support, substandard contrast enhancement, and terrible chroma up-sampling and scaling performance.

On top of this, Intel HD Graphics continues to suffer from Intel’s inability to support 23.976 FPS video playback, doubling a frame every 40 seconds. All things considered, AMD wins in this discipline.



http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/...u,2959-21.html

It looks like Llano beats Sandybridge in one very important way for HTPC, and thats HD video quality.
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post #209 of 880 Old 06-14-2011, 05:27 PM - Thread Starter
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It looks like you need side port memory to get decent graphics performance. Maybe intel is right with just making integrated graphics good enough for multimedia, so long as they fix the 23.xxx fps issue with ivy bridge. Anyone who is into gaming or productivity that requires high end graphics will still want discrete, at least in the near future.

Given how gaming has permeated society, I think Intel knows they need to make their integrated graphics capable of playing at least casual games, or popular ones such as WoW and SC2. I believe archibael has mentioned in one of his posts, that unlike the competition, Intel doesn't have to dance the fine line between making their integrated graphics good enough to beat their rivals' but at the same time, bad enough not to eat into sales of their entry-level discrete cards. In this case, I think Intel's just having a hard time improving graphics performance. Another thing to consider, now that both CPU and GPU are on the same silicon, keeping the heat and power consumption low becomes trickier. That's why we have all these Turbo and power gating stuff. Perhaps they can make the GPU faster but at the expense of more heat and much higher power consumption. *sigh* Looks like it's Intel's mainstream offerings with integrated graphics that need triple and quad-channel memory.

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So if Llano graphics is so memory limited does it make much sense to go above the lowest Llano chip? Its only going to perform like a 6450 anyways. So I'm thinking get the A4 and it will solve the shortcomings of zacate, aka not enough grunt for software video decoding and enabling 3D.

For me, the issue with the A4 is it's soon becoming not enough CPU. I've already found a couple of clips (1080p60) that my trusty Celeron E3300 2.5 GHz can't handle so I'm somewhat hesitant to go with something that's effectively an Athlon II X2 Regor. The lack of GPU power is easy to remedy. Your choices range from $20 entry-level to $800 monsters. The lack of CPU power, particularly single-threaded performance, though, there's not much you can do about which is a concern when the fastest chip available is roughly around Sandy Bridge dual-core performance in heavily multi-threaded tasks and considerably lower in others. As it stands, my Llano purchase is now heavily contingent on pricing. If they don't price Llano attractively enough, I'd rather go Pentium Sandy Bridge or Core i3 paired with NVIDIA graphics. That way, I also get CUDA/CUVID support.

I reckon for most folks, though, the A4 should work just fine.

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It looks like Llano beats Sandybridge in one very important way for HTPC, and thats HD video quality.

Only if you use the GPU's video post-processing.
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post #210 of 880 Old 06-15-2011, 12:15 AM
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I feel better having just bought a Core i3-2100 for $80. If I'm somehow unhappy with the graphics, I can add a low power graphics card and match whatever Llano can do. And apparently, I have the better CPU on pretty much every important CPU benchmark. Oh, and I don't have to wait another 2-3 months.

I guess I expected better CPU performance here. That said, the gaming performance is best ever for an integrated design. This is probably a good thing in the big picture, even if the hardcore gamer could care less.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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