AMD Llano - THE great HTPC chip? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 880 Old 05-06-2011, 10:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Llano's already been shipped to OEM's and it's only a couple of months until official release so I figured I'd get the ball rolling.


The Good:
  • proper 23.976 support
  • HD audio bitstreaming
  • HDMI 1.4 and 3D support
  • sufficient CPU power for software decoding
  • decent gaming capabilities (should do 720p on Medium-High settings)
  • plays nice with freeware/open-source DXVA players

The Bad
  • frankly, I can't think of any

Pricing is still unknown but hopefully, it will be in line with current Athlon II offerings. I'd love build myself a few of these.
LL
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post #2 of 880 Old 05-06-2011, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by ilovejedd View Post


The Good:[list][*]proper 23.976 support

I am excited about Llano as well!

Are you 100% sure about the 24p playback? Even some of the ATI cards now struggle with this...

Although its well known that I think this "struggle" is absolute hogwash.
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post #3 of 880 Old 05-06-2011, 11:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by assassin View Post

Are you 100% sure about the 24p playback? Even some of the ATI cards now struggle with this...

At 23.978 fps (or even 23.972/3), that's close enough that it can be considered fairly accurate. The main point here is that it doesn't do 24.000 fps like Clarkdale does as that can be very noticeable for some people.
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post #4 of 880 Old 05-06-2011, 11:20 AM
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I'll definitely have my eye on the A8-3550.

I wonder if the 100W "P" skus are "Black Edition".

 

 

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post #5 of 880 Old 05-06-2011, 11:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by StardogChampion View Post

I wonder if the 100W "P" skus are "Black Edition".

I think so. The Bulldozer SKU's is as follows:
  • FX-4110
  • FX-6110
  • FX-8110
  • FX-8130P

Have to say, Intel can learn from AMD's naming scheme. With the FX series, it's obvious which processors have 4, 6 and 8 cores.
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post #6 of 880 Old 05-06-2011, 03:53 PM
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CPU is much weaker than i3. Probably won't be good enough for 2D-3D conversion, neither for 1080p 60p playback (modern video camera output, DXVA is not working with it). That is for dual core part, at least, maybe for quad-core 65W too.

Not sure why they have such small difference in PC Mark vantage scores. Tom got 50% difference between i7-2600K and i3-2100 (21K vs 14K). They got ~30% difference between same CPUs (approx. 170% vs 135%).
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/...k,2833-12.html

So, I doubt these charts represent real performance. In any case if new AMD CPUs were outstanding AMD would have leaked some more convincing scores. There is only one month left. Last time AMD were so secretive was before releasing the first Phenom.

No parts below 65W, nothing to compete with 35W Core i3-2100T chip.
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post #7 of 880 Old 05-06-2011, 04:56 PM
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Its looking like the best chip in the near future. The deciding factor will be if intel finally fixes the 23.xxx thing for ivy bridge. The cpu portion will offer much higher overall performance and performance per watt than llano. Granted that much cpu power wont be needed for HTPC duties, but a version like the 2100T should be great.

PS supposedly AMD put a lot of work into making llano more energy efficient, so it might match sandy bridge idle wattage.
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post #8 of 880 Old 05-07-2011, 08:24 AM
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These all seem too hot (at least 65W TDP) to be considered 'HTPC' ready.
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post #9 of 880 Old 05-07-2011, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by sdsalsero View Post

These all seem too hot (at least 65W TDP) to be considered 'HTPC' ready.

I just put one of these guys on my athlon II X2 because I'm going to overclock it. Anyways if you can control the fan speed it is dead silent. Of coarse it only fits and a standard tower case.
LL
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post #10 of 880 Old 05-07-2011, 09:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by micksh View Post

CPU is much weaker than i3. Probably won't be good enough for 2D-3D conversion, neither for 1080p 60p playback (modern video camera output, DXVA is not working with it). That is for dual core part, at least, maybe for quad-core 65W too.

Not sure why they have such small difference in PC Mark vantage scores. Tom got 50% difference between i7-2600K and i3-2100 (21K vs 14K). They got ~30% difference between same CPUs (approx. 170% vs 135%).
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/...k,2833-12.html

So, I doubt these charts represent real performance. In any case if new AMD CPUs were outstanding AMD would have leaked some more convincing scores. There is only one month left. Last time AMD were so secretive was before releasing the first Phenom.

To me, it looks more like i7-2600K is at 170% and i3-2100 is at 125% so more like 45% difference. I tried 1080p60 (Ginza Cat and Birds from another thread here) on my E3300 3.33 GHz + GT 430 and it appears DXVA does help at least partially with the decoding (Video Engine Load @ 85~100% via GPU-Z). It just so happens that you still need quite a bit of help from the CPU.

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Originally Posted by micksh View Post

No parts below 65W, nothing to compete with 35W Core i3-2100T chip.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdsalsero View Post

These all seem too hot (at least 65W TDP) to be considered 'HTPC' ready.

I think it's been mentioned somewhere that AMD will be releasing energy-efficient 45W versions. Besides, the Sandy Bridge offerings also have 65W TDP. renethx has compared those with 35W versions and he's only seen around 5W difference at load.

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Originally Posted by jeffkro View Post

Its looking like the best chip in the near future. The deciding factor will be if intel finally fixes the 23.xxx thing for ivy bridge. The cpu portion will offer much higher overall performance and performance per watt than llano. Granted that much cpu power wont be needed for HTPC duties, but a version like the 2100T should be great.

Caveat, Ivy Bridge won't be released until 2012 so that's a good 6 months after Llano. Another thing, open-source software currently play nicer with AMD and NVIDIA GPU (although NVIDIA is still ahead when it comes to Linux support).
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post #11 of 880 Old 05-07-2011, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by jeffkro View Post

I just put one of these guys on my athlon II X2 because I'm going to overclock it. Anyways if you can control the fan speed it is dead silent. Of coarse it only fits and a standard tower case.

Holly crap this is a good cooler I'm at 3.525ghz running a stress test and doesn't go above 34c on the cores. Unfortunately I got a below average athlon II X2 cpu, I was only able to hit 3.585ghz where the average seems to be 3.7ghz and lucky chips hit 3.9ghz.
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post #12 of 880 Old 05-08-2011, 02:45 AM
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Originally Posted by jeffkro View Post

Holly crap this is a good cooler

Holy crap good cooler for what crap?
In early 2008 renethx guide suggested Scythe Mini Ninja cooler for HTPC cases, I bought it (thanks to renethx) and since that Core 2 Duo E8400 works perfectly with below 40C temperature at 3.6GHz.

So, you are saying in 2011 your cooler can't fit HTPC case, needs tower case, can't overclock to 3.6GHz and this is somehow related to Llano, "THE great HTPC chip"?

I would really appreciate explanation on how this is relevant to the subject, Llano.
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post #13 of 880 Old 05-08-2011, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by micksh View Post

Holy crap good cooler for what crap?
In early 2008 renethx guide suggested Scythe Mini Ninja cooler for HTPC cases, I bought it (thanks to renethx) and since that Core 2 Duo E8400 works perfectly with below 40C temperature at 3.6GHz.

So, you are saying in 2011 your cooler can't fit HTPC case, needs tower case, can't overclock to 3.6GHz and this is somehow related to Llano, "THE great HTPC chip"?

I would really appreciate explanation on how this is relevant to the subject, Llano.

Well most people with HTPC have NAS systems and also people with zacate systems will need to do video re-encoding on a more powerful system. So basically almost everyone in here networks all of their systems. As far as overclocking goes a lot of it has to do with luck of the draw even when effectively cooled. But yeah it probably is relevant to llano. That being said I would probably buy a radeon 6450 drop it into my athlon X2 system and bump it down to my HTPC before I bought llano. Then buy a core i5 system for my desktop as the core i5 SB will spank llano in cpu intensive tasks. Then I would make my zacate my always on home automation, NAS, and DVR pc and of course have all three networked.

P.S. llano is basically the same thing as an athlon II with a radeon 6450, which is a damn good HTPC setup.
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post #14 of 880 Old 05-08-2011, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by micksh View Post

Holy crap good cooler for what crap?
In early 2008 renethx guide suggested Scythe Mini Ninja cooler for HTPC cases, I bought it (thanks to renethx) and since that Core 2 Duo E8400 works perfectly with below 40C temperature at 3.6GHz.

So, you are saying in 2011 your cooler can't fit HTPC case, needs tower case, can't overclock to 3.6GHz and this is somehow related to Llano, "THE great HTPC chip"?

I would really appreciate explanation on how this is relevant to the subject, Llano.

By the way that scythe mini ninja cooler looks pretty sweet, I should have bought that one instead.
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post #15 of 880 Old 05-08-2011, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by jeffkro View Post

P.S. llano is basically the same thing as an athlon II with a radeon 6450, which is a damn good HTPC setup.

I understand that the hope is that Llano will be much better than Athlon, at 32nm it better should.

Regarding Scythe Ninja mini - it fits 7" tall HTPC case. Since the beginning I replaced stock fan with some $10 SilenX quiet fan. After 3 years it is still silent. If motherboard has a good fan management the stock fan would be good enough, I guess.
At some point Renethx dropped this cooler in favor of horizontal fan designs from Cooler Master and Noctua. He probably had reasons for that, but to me Ninja mini is perfect.

And for desktop I went super quiet. Scythe Mugen 2 cools my 95W Core 2 Quad Q9550 at 3.4GHz with 300RPM at idle. 300 RPM is dead silent, even motherboard thinks that CPU fan is dead at boot, but it still boots and everything works. It's a very old desktop, but still OK for video encoding. At 100% 95W CPU load fan is about 700-800 RPM, can't be heard at 3 feet inside Antec P182 either.
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post #16 of 880 Old 05-09-2011, 02:15 AM
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I think the big thing for Llano is that it finally integrates everything together

There are some who like Zacate's GPU power but think the CPU is too weak. There are those who like the SB i3 but don't think the GPU is enough. Llano looks like it will provide both GPU and CPU power without needing a discrete GPU or other hardware
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post #17 of 880 Old 05-09-2011, 03:40 AM
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post #18 of 880 Old 05-09-2011, 06:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by micksh View Post

I understand that the hope is that Llano will be much better than Athlon, at 32nm it better should.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chewietobbacca View Post

I think the big thing for Llano is that it finally integrates everything together

They're adding performance of a step-up from entry level GPU while keeping 65W TDP for the APU. I don't really mind if the CPU isn't that much better. For a better CPU, you can wait for Trinity or Ivy Bridge. Really, it's the integration that's the big thing.

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There are some who like Zacate's GPU power but think the CPU is too weak. There are those who like the SB i3 but don't think the GPU is enough. Llano looks like it will provide both GPU and CPU power without needing a discrete GPU or other hardware

It's not really even the lack of GPU power on Sandy Bridge. It's more driver/chipset issues. I reckon if the 24p issue was fixed and it had better support for open-source players, few people would bother waiting for Llano or Ivy Bridge. The extra GPU power on Llano is nice, but ultimately unnecessary for simple HTPC playback.
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post #19 of 880 Old 05-09-2011, 07:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chewietobbacca View Post

I think the big thing for Llano is that it finally integrates everything together

There are some who like Zacate's GPU power but think the CPU is too weak. There are those who like the SB i3 but don't think the GPU is enough. Llano looks like it will provide both GPU and CPU power without needing a discrete GPU or other hardware

Yes exactly. This is what makes it look great to me. Even if it is similar performance to athlon that is fine for an htpc.
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post #20 of 880 Old 05-09-2011, 03:45 PM
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My only concern is whether the 4 core 65W TDP version with the 6550 is capable of supporting decode of all 1080p60 H264 material, particularly those from the recent crop of AVCHD camcorders.

Both the 5450 and 6450 were qualified only for 1080p24 H264 decoding.

Ganesh T S
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post #21 of 880 Old 05-09-2011, 04:30 PM - Thread Starter
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My only concern is whether the 4 core 65W TDP version with the 6550 is capable of supporting decode of all 1080p60 H264 material, particularly those from the recent crop of AVCHD camcorders.

Both the 5450 and 6450 were qualified only for 1080p24 H264 decoding.

Does any video card support full hardware acceleration of 1080p60 H.264 anyway? I know my GT 430 couldn't do it, although I've yet to try on my GTS 450 and GTX 460 (results might be skewed since those are paired with an i5-760 and an i7-860 respectively). I don't think full hardware decode acceleration is necessary as long as there's enough CPU power to handle what the GPU couldn't. That was the case with my GT 430 + Celeron E3300 (oc'ed to 3.33 GHz).

Curious, what specific clips does AT use in their Media Streamer test suite? Is it public domain or perhaps covered by Creative Commons license? I'd love to be able to use it for my tests.
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post #22 of 880 Old 05-09-2011, 07:02 PM
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Yes exactly. This is what makes it look great to me. Even if it is similar performance to athlon that is fine for an htpc.

An athlon II X2 has more than enough cpu grunt for all media playback especially when paired with something like a 6450, so its no question it will be fully capable for HTPC. The question that remains to be answered is how low AMD manages to get them to idle, supposedly they made a lot of improvements.
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post #23 of 880 Old 05-10-2011, 03:12 PM
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They're probably going to have to lower prices if they want to compete with Intel. Sure, the GPU on Llano is good but since the CPU is pretty outclassed by Sandy Bridge, I think that puts them on somewhat equal footing.

The E-350's competitor is Atom/ION. It's so much slower than even a Celeron Wolfdale it's not even funny. Imho, match-ups should be E2-3250 vs Celeron (~$50), A4-3350 vs Pentium G600 (~$70), A6-3450 vs Pentium G800 (~$90) and A8-3550 vs Core i3 (~$120). Then just sell the A6-3450P for ~$110 and the A8-3550P for ~$140.
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post #25 of 880 Old 05-10-2011, 05:43 PM
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There is no doubt Sandy Bridge is the superior cpu, but for HTPC thats not really a big deal since we are basically only talking multimedia here. I'm guessing the E2-3250 will be able to handle every format of multimedia including 1080p60, 3D blueray, and all audio formats. It should also do this at a lower price than intel's offerings and don't forget radeon gpu's are superior to intel's. No I think llano will be a very good option for us HTPC guys, and intel will be the choice for gamers.

"The E-350's competitor is Atom/ION. It's so much slower than even a Celeron Wolfdale it's not even funny. Imho, match-ups should be E2-3250 vs Celeron (~$50), A4-3350 vs Pentium G600 (~$70), A6-3450 vs Pentium G800 (~$90) and A8-3550 vs Core i3 (~$120). Then just sell the A6-3450P for ~$110 and the A8-3550P for ~$140."

Don't you have to get the core i3 from intel to get all the built in graphics functions? That means the minimum intel cpu is the core i3 2100.
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post #26 of 880 Old 05-10-2011, 07:24 PM
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One of the things that struck me funny about that chart is they're saying not even their A8 quad-core offerings compete against the SB i5 offerings. You have to wait until Zambezi to get that.

If the prices are good, I'll probably upgrade my Phenom II x3 / 780G / HD5670 main living room PC to one of the Lynx offerings but only if the wattage, heat output, reviews, etc. come in good. I am excited these will start showing up in just a couple of months now.

 

 

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post #27 of 880 Old 05-11-2011, 07:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffkro View Post

There is no doubt Sandy Bridge is the superior cpu, but for HTPC thats not really a big deal since we are basically only talking multimedia here. I'm guessing the E2-3250 will be able to handle every format of multimedia including 1080p60, 3D blueray, and all audio formats. It should also do this at a lower price than intel's offerings and don't forget radeon gpu's are superior to intel's. No I think llano will be a very good option for us HTPC guys, and intel will be the choice for gamers.

"The E-350's competitor is Atom/ION. It's so much slower than even a Celeron Wolfdale it's not even funny. Imho, match-ups should be E2-3250 vs Celeron (~$50), A4-3350 vs Pentium G600 (~$70), A6-3450 vs Pentium G800 (~$90) and A8-3550 vs Core i3 (~$120). Then just sell the A6-3450P for ~$110 and the A8-3550P for ~$140."

Don't you have to get the core i3 from intel to get all the built in graphics functions? That means the minimum intel cpu is the core i3 2100.

We're not sure what features the Pentium will have cut. Given the competition, Intel might decide to leave HD audio bitstreaming support. Even if they did cut 3D, few people actually care about that. Besides, Intel CPU is fast enough to handle video decoding via software.

True, Llano will draw in the HTPC crowd but if they want a bigger slice of the market (those who don't care about DXVA and whether it's the GPU or CPU that does the work as long as it gets done), we'll probably see some price drops. That's what happened with the Athlon II when Clarkdale was released and now with Sandy Bridge. Unfortunately for AMD, Intel has better brand recognition and they need to capture more than just the netbook market to stay competitive.

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One of the things that struck me funny about that chart is they're saying not even their A8 quad-core offerings compete against the SB i5 offerings. You have to wait until Zambezi to get that.

If the prices are good, I'll probably upgrade my Phenom II x3 / 780G / HD5670 main living room PC to one of the Lynx offerings but only if the wattage, heat output, reviews, etc. come in good. I am excited these will start showing up in just a couple of months now.

That's really what it boils down to. If pricing is similar to Athlon II (or just $10~20 more), Llano's going to be a big hit. If they think they can price the A8-3550 same as the Core i5-2300, good luck.

I realize Llano would probably cut into their more lucrative entry-level graphics business but AMD IGP improvements are long overdue. It's like they just stopped making better integrated graphics once NVIDIA was out of the picture. We've had practically the same performance since 780G/790GX to current (bar Zacate). It's only with recent improvements from Clarkdale and Sandy Bridge that AMD felt threatened. Competition for the win.
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post #28 of 880 Old 05-11-2011, 10:32 AM
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I realize Llano would probably cut into their more lucrative entry-level graphics business but AMD IGP improvements are long overdue.

I wonder if while this will hurt OEM sales if it'll really hurt AMD. Instead of shipping these low-end GPU parts -- manufactured separately and with the OEMs taking a cut -- they'll now manufacture them together with the CPU and no one gets a cut. There has to be an economy there. On the flipside, I have no idea what the margins are on the OEM GPUs vs the on-die IGP so I can't say if they'll make more or less money. It just seems to me to be more efficient overall from a business point-of-view.

The OEMs will still have the gamer cards. That seems to be all I see for ads anyway whenever I go to the AMD site or get AMD mailings.

 

 

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post #29 of 880 Old 05-11-2011, 01:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by StardogChampion View Post
I wonder if while this will hurt OEM sales if it'll really hurt AMD. Instead of shipping these low-end GPU parts -- manufactured separately and with the OEMs taking a cut -- they'll now manufacture them together with the CPU and no one gets a cut. There has to be an economy there. On the flipside, I have no idea what the margins are on the OEM GPUs vs the on-die IGP so I can't say if they'll make more or less money. It just seems to me to be more efficient overall from a business point-of-view.
True. Combining it with the CPU means they don't have to share with AIB manufacturers. Besides, if they can sell chipsets for the same price like Intel is doing, not having the integrated graphics on the chipset probably means a slightly higher profit margin on chipsets. Another thing, if AMD can manage to wrestle even 3~5% of the CPU market from Intel because of Llano's graphics, that's probably enough to make up for the lost sales on HD 6450's (and perhaps HD 6570's).

Features-wise, I think Llano is perfect. Now it's just up to pricing, wattage, heat output, reviews, etc to determine the extent of its success.
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post #30 of 880 Old 05-11-2011, 01:40 PM
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http://www.techpowerup.com/145597/AM...ng-on-IGP.html

25-35-45W range listed... hmm, me wants!
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