Latest Ceton InfiniTV 4 Info Thread - Page 162 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #4831 of 4850 Old 12-31-2014, 06:48 AM
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Originally Posted by DSperber View Post
I would not choose to install a network-based ETH card, as it puts significant load on your external network (i.e. going through your router and switches and cables, all then coming into your HTPC via its network adapter)... even when just recording! And then if you're simultaneously playing back (or live) through your extenders, well that too must come out through your HTPC network adapter and spread through your network. Each HD stream is probably 5-15 MB/s and I'd choose to keep at least the tuners internal to the HTPC. That's how I feel.
I have 5 network tuners feeding 2 WMC computers and 3 extenders. They can all run simultaneously without any trouble. The network has been the most trouble free part of my home media system.
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post #4832 of 4850 Old 12-31-2014, 08:04 AM
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On a gigabit network (which I believe to be the affordable standard for a home network in these days), even the InfiniTV4 network bridged to clients won't consume more than 10% of your network's capacity. I've had no problems at all with network speed being too slow with 4 streams recording. I even have the WHS 2011 TV Archive setup that transfers the recordings back to WHS after they complete on the client HTPC's.
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post #4833 of 4850 Old 12-31-2014, 08:51 AM
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What do you mean by "the TV buffer"? I assume you mean "\Recorded TV" when you mention "the record file" but I don't know what you mean by "the TV buffer"?

For me, I don't think I'd use the SSD for storing new recordings (i.e. the one \Recorded TV folder which you set in "Recorder Storage"of WMC). I'd much rather use a spinner. In my case I only use 7200rpm drives with 64MB cache for WMC data drives (with a 10000rpm drive on one of my machines for the OS partition, not having upgraded that machine to SSD for OS yet). I don't use green drives, old drives with small cache, and I don't use 5400rpm drives.

You can have multiple "\Recorded TV" folders (on the primary as well as other drives) for playback of recordings, if your primary new recorded TV folder doesn't have a very large capacity. Moving (either manually or automatically) the recordings from your primary \Recorded TV folder to another \Recorded TV folder on another drive (i.e. somewhere in the "pool of \Recorded TV" library) will empty out space on the primary folder for new recordings, but will still allow you to play back all of these older recordings which are now kept on other drives which probably have more capacity. But you still have the same concern about drive speed and cache size on those secondary drives. Again, I wouldn't use SSD for this secondary storage either, but would just use good-performing spinners.

I, too, have an internal PCIe InfiniTV4 card and don't have a need to replace it with the TV6 PCIe card I bought last year (during a "sale") just to have as a replacement spare on hand in case my current TV4 card (which is now 4 years old but still working perfectly) dies. I would not choose to install a network-based ETH card, as it puts significant load on your external network (i.e. going through your router and switches and cables, all then coming into your HTPC via its network adapter)... even when just recording! And then if you're simultaneously playing back (or live) through your extenders, well that too must come out through your HTPC network adapter and spread through your network. Each HD stream is probably 5-15 MB/s and I'd choose to keep at least the tuners internal to the HTPC. That's how I feel.

You say you also have the issue when viewing live/recordings on the monitor attached to the HTPC itself, and not just on the TV's connected through extenders. So that suggests it is NOT your network which is at the heart of the problem, but rather something internal to the HTPC and WMC itself.

Live TV uses the tuners but still buffers through the \Recorded TV folder (to allow you to REW, PAUSE, etc., for live TV). Watching a recording doesn't use the tuners, so doing your experimenting with recordings rather than live TV would eliminate the Ceton card as relevant to your viewing issues, and would allow you to focus on other internal hardware/software/WMC factors as potentially the source of your problems.

Are your hard drives SATA-II or SATA-III? I've upgraded all of my own drives (and motherboard) to provide SATA-III only, in support of my upgraded SATA-III 7200rpm 64MB cache drives.


If all you did was reinstall Win7 from scratch onto your new SSD, with everything else in the machine remaining the same, I can't see why this would impact WMC performance at all. Your network components are the same, as is everything else. If anything the OS should run faster, but that shouldn't have anything to do with delivering TV through WMC.

Have you performed benchmarks on your SSD performance in general? Is it working to your expectations?

The only thing you've said which is odd, is that apparently you started off with your primary \Recorded TV folder somewhere on the new SSD (either on the same C partition as your OS is on, or perhaps on a second partition on the SSD?), instead of on a separate spinner data drive. Putting things back onto a spinner would be like you were previously operating before the SSD upgrade, so you'd think your performance would surely return to the way it used to be.

So, was adding an SSD and reinstalling Windows all you did? Or were there other hardware changes as well?
The live TV buffer change form ceton website. - http://cetoncorp.com/support/index.p...s-media-center

Sorry I was tired when I wrote this up so I wasnt very clear with the recordtv folder, I moved this folder to one of the drives in my pool and took it completely off the ssd.

Everything is sata II because of the motherboard, its a msi 790-g45xt and it only goes up to sata II but the drives are sataIII.

And yes all I did was add a ssd and reinstall windows. before i started down this rabbit hole.

I will go record a show or two now and report back on the findings. Does it matter where i initiate the recording for this purpose? ie the win7 server box or the extender, I mean they both end up in the same place.
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post #4834 of 4850 Old 12-31-2014, 08:53 AM
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The ssd seems to be working fine and the WEI went up because of it, the read write speeds are as high as you can go with sataII from what i read...since the MB is limiting to only sataII.
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post #4835 of 4850 Old 12-31-2014, 09:23 AM
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But you had SATA-II from your motherboard with your old setup as well. So although there's no question your hard drive performance is less than you'd get with SATA-III controllers, the current setup is no different than it was before. Right? And by the way, just because your drives are capable of SATA-III performance they will only provide SATA-II performance if your motherboard controllers are SATA-II. This certainly is not helping.

How many hard drives do you have, in addition to the SSD? Did you only have one hard drive before, or did you have two or more before?

Where was your primary \Recorded TV before adding the SSD? Was it on the same hard drive as your C partition? Or was it on a separate hard drive?

By default, the "live TV recording buffer" is in the same \Recorded TV primary recording folder. So if this folder was on a second drive then that's good. If this folder was on the same hard drive as your C partition for Windows, that's not good.

If you've now moved the primary \Recorded TV folder to a spinner (whereas it had been on the SSD following your fresh Win7 install) then you've also moved the "live TV recording buffer" with it, and that's good. It really should ideally not have been on the same drive as C, no matter whether spinner or SSD.

But again, if everything hardware-wise other than the SSD is the same in your new environment as it was in your old environment, and you're now using the same secondary spinner drive for your primary \Recorded TV folder as you were before, I really can't think of why you should be seeing anything different than you saw previously.
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post #4836 of 4850 Old 12-31-2014, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by reddysteddy8150 View Post
The ssd seems to be working fine and the WEI went up because of it, the read write speeds are as high as you can go with sataII from what i read...since the MB is limiting to only sataII.
If you want to see the details of the disk performance test that Windows Experience does, open a command prompt as administrator and run:
Code:
winsat disk -drive c
It only takes about 2 minutes to run. It will display what was tested with the results and also includes the Windows Experience score for each test.
You can replace the "c" with a different drive letter if you want to run it on any of your HDDs.
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post #4837 of 4850 Old 12-31-2014, 09:41 AM
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But you had SATA-II from your motherboard with your old setup as well. So although there's no question your hard drive performance is less than you'd get with SATA-III controllers, the current setup is no different than it was before. Right? And by the way, just because your drives are capable of SATA-III performance they will only provide SATA-II performance if your motherboard controllers are SATA-II. This certainly is not helping.

How many hard drives do you have, in addition to the SSD? Did you only have one hard drive before, or did you have two or more before?

Where was your primary \Recorded TV before adding the SSD? Was it on the same hard drive as your C partition? Or was it on a separate hard drive?

By default, the "live TV recording buffer" is in the same \Recorded TV primary recording folder. So if this folder was on a second drive then that's good. If this folder was on the same hard drive as your C partition for Windows, that's not good.

If you've now moved the primary \Recorded TV folder to a spinner (whereas it had been on the SSD following your fresh Win7 install) then you've also moved the "live TV recording buffer" with it, and that's good. It really should ideally not have been on the same drive as C, no matter whether spinner or SSD.

But again, if everything hardware-wise other than the SSD is the same in your new environment as it was in your old environment, and you're now using the same secondary spinner drive for your primary \Recorded TV folder as you were before, I really can't think of why you should be seeing anything different than you saw previously.
The MB is from the old setup nothing changed there either.

In addition to the SSD i have 7 HDD all connected by the Supermicro AOC-SASLP-MV8

The primary recordtv folder was left on the os hdd , i moved it when installing the ssd to bring down how many times the ssd is being wrote to.

Yea im not sure why its so different then before, makes 0 sense. so thats when i started changing things to correct it.

Im considering upgrading the MB, cpu and mem now though. To get the sata III and a integrated video card. ( not that it matters but the less on the bus the better?)
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post #4838 of 4850 Old 12-31-2014, 09:55 AM
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Sorry I was tired when I wrote this up so I wasnt very clear with the recordtv folder, I moved this folder to one of the drives in my pool and took it completely off the ssd.
I missed that earlier. What kind of pool?
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post #4839 of 4850 Old 12-31-2014, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by DSperber View Post
But you had SATA-II from your motherboard with your old setup as well. So although there's no question your hard drive performance is less than you'd get with SATA-III controllers, the current setup is no different than it was before. Right? And by the way, just because your drives are capable of SATA-III performance they will only provide SATA-II performance if your motherboard controllers are SATA-II. This certainly is not helping.

How many hard drives do you have, in addition to the SSD? Did you only have one hard drive before, or did you have two or more before?

Where was your primary \Recorded TV before adding the SSD? Was it on the same hard drive as your C partition? Or was it on a separate hard drive?

By default, the "live TV recording buffer" is in the same \Recorded TV primary recording folder. So if this folder was on a second drive then that's good. If this folder was on the same hard drive as your C partition for Windows, that's not good.

If you've now moved the primary \Recorded TV folder to a spinner (whereas it had been on the SSD following your fresh Win7 install) then you've also moved the "live TV recording buffer" with it, and that's good. It really should ideally not have been on the same drive as C, no matter whether spinner or SSD.

But again, if everything hardware-wise other than the SSD is the same in your new environment as it was in your old environment, and you're now using the same secondary spinner drive for your primary \Recorded TV folder as you were before, I really can't think of why you should be seeing anything different than you saw previously.
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I missed that earlier. What kind of pool?
right now its just in jbod, i havent set up any type of raid yet as i want the live tv to function correctly...
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post #4840 of 4850 Old 12-31-2014, 10:19 AM
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The MB is from the old setup nothing changed there either.

In addition to the SSD i have 7 HDD all connected by the Supermicro AOC-SASLP-MV8
I don't know anything about this 8-port SATA-II PCIe-bus controller, but I'm guessing this add-on to an old motherboard may be part of the story regarding less-than-stellar hard drive performance.

Watching live TV involves "double-buffering" to the hard drive, as the new content is being "recorded" (i.e. written to disk) at the same time as what you're seeing on your TV is actually being "played back" from the just written disk buffer contents. So this is placing double the demand on your hard drives. This is different from playing recorded content, which is only reading from disk, thus having less demand on your hard drives.

I don't think 8GB of memory is a problem. That's fine. But CPU speed, chipset, SATA controller speed, hard drive cache size, etc., these are all things which affect how much the machine itself can do at once, and can certainly impact the WMC performance delivering live TV to multiple extenders. I do think you'd probably see better results if you watched recordings, rather than live TV. Would be interested in your testing this out.
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post #4841 of 4850 Old 12-31-2014, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by DSperber View Post
I don't know anything about this 8-port SATA-II PCIe-bus controller, but I'm guessing this add-on to an old motherboard may be part of the story regarding less-than-stellar hard drive performance.

Watching live TV involves "double-buffering" to the hard drive, as the new content is being "recorded" (i.e. written to disk) at the same time as what you're seeing on your TV is actually being "played back" from the just written disk buffer contents. So this is placing double the demand on your hard drives. This is different from playing recorded content, which is only reading from disk, thus having less demand on your hard drives.

I don't think 8GB of memory is a problem. That's fine. But CPU speed, chipset, SATA controller speed, hard drive cache size, etc., these are all things which affect how much the machine itself can do at once, and can certainly impact the WMC performance delivering live TV to multiple extenders. I do think you'd probably see better results if you watched recordings, rather than live TV. Would be interested in your testing this out.
Ill let you know what i find with the recording.

im now def leaning towards upgrading the mb and cpu...and you think more than 8gb ram is needed?

Last edited by reddysteddy8150; 12-31-2014 at 10:27 AM.
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post #4842 of 4850 Old 12-31-2014, 10:30 AM
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right now its just in jbod, i havent set up any type of raid yet as i want the live tv to function correctly...
I can only imagine the bad things that would happen if you were running a parity update while trying to run WMC from a folder in the pool.
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post #4843 of 4850 Old 12-31-2014, 10:36 AM
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I don't know anything about this 8-port SATA-II PCIe-bus controller, but I'm guessing this add-on to an old motherboard may be part of the story regarding less-than-stellar hard drive performance.
I have the AOC-SAS2LP-MV8 and it works very well. In fact my recorded tv folder is on one of the drives on that card.

It was all working before the SSD change so the hardware is probably good enough.
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post #4844 of 4850 Old 01-01-2015, 10:04 AM
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I have the AOC-SAS2LP-MV8 and it works very well. In fact my recorded tv folder is on one of the drives on that card.

It was all working before the SSD change so the hardware is probably good enough.
SO i did a few recordings and they all play just like the live tv , stuttering, freezing, pixelated.

My thought was to move the drive that has the recordtv file off the raid card to straight to the MB and remove that piece, also going to make sure its on one of my red drives.

If this doesnt work im going to upgrade the mb, cpu and ram and start over.
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post #4845 of 4850 Old 01-01-2015, 10:20 AM
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SO i did a few recordings and they all play just like the live tv , stuttering, freezing, pixelated.

My thought was to move the drive that has the recordtv file off the raid card to straight to the MB and remove that piece, also going to make sure its on one of my red drives.

If this doesnt work im going to upgrade the mb, cpu and ram and start over.
Those are also symptoms of not running DCA or having PlayReady (DRM) issues or overheating. I'd try more software solutions before replacing any hardware. The hardware requirements for recording/playing TV are very low. Have you checked your temps lately? Here's a handy little web page I use a lot:
http://www.thegreenbutton.tv/forums/...p=82629#p82629
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post #4846 of 4850 Old 01-01-2015, 10:58 AM
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Those are also symptoms of not running DCA or having PlayReady (DRM) issues or overheating. I'd try more software solutions before replacing any hardware. The hardware requirements for recording/playing TV are very low. Have you checked your temps lately? Here's a handy little web page I use a lot:
http://www.thegreenbutton.tv/forums/...p=82629#p82629
All 4 tuners are at 42.4 to 42.6

all green wmdrm

and i reran the dca, passed

still same issue

moving onto changing the recordtv file to a red drive and hooked to the mb instead of through the raid card

**EDIT Solved Issue***
So after moving the recordtv file from the green drive to the red and moving the drive off the raid card and directly to the mb fixed the issue...i have 3 tuners running right now no, stuttering or pixelation.

Thank you for the help...
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Last edited by reddysteddy8150; 01-01-2015 at 12:38 PM. Reason: Solved issue
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post #4847 of 4850 Old Today, 03:19 PM
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"Viewing or Listening Conflict"

Not sure if I should post this here on in the WMC thread, but here goes. If a mod allows it, I may cross-post over there.

I'm getting this dreaded error message, and I'm hoping that somebody can help!!

The odd thing about the situation is that when I go into Ceton Diagnostics, the pages for both the InfiniTV and the CableCARD show only partial lists of items to check off. And yet Device Manager claims that everything is working properly. (See images linked below.)

I can't tune to any channels, and doing it via the Ceton Diagnostics gives no results. I tried closing and re-launching WMC -- no dice. Tried restarting the PC -- nada.

Is the InfiniTV4 tuner on the blink? Could it be the CableCARD? (Just got a new one a few months ago.) What can/should I do at this stage? Wife is saying that what I should do is just get a cableco DVR and be done with it...

http://i.imgur.com/tCQlVnT.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/KvJX5wH.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/HuTcNR8.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/RjKU79W.jpg

UPDATE: Never mind (?). I noticed that the Norton Internet Security icon was missing from the Notification Area. I launched NIS manually, and almost immediately the tuners came back. Weird.

Last edited by JorgeA; Today at 03:45 PM. Reason: new info
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post #4848 of 4850 Old Today, 03:45 PM
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What can/should I do at this stage?
I'd suggest opening a ticket with Ceton. Something definitely doesn't look right on the CableCard tab, but since I switched to SiliconDust HDHomeRun Primes, I can't look at mine to be more specific than that.
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post #4849 of 4850 Old Today, 04:49 PM
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I'd suggest opening a ticket with Ceton. Something definitely doesn't look right on the CableCard tab, but since I switched to SiliconDust HDHomeRun Primes, I can't look at mine to be more specific than that.
Looks like your post and my edit crossed in cyberspace.

Thanks for the idea. I will move on to that stage if this happens again, although (because of the Norton connection) right now it sounds like some sort of strange firewall issue.

P.S. How do you like the SD hardware, compared to Ceton's?

Last edited by JorgeA; Today at 04:50 PM. Reason: P.S.
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post #4850 of 4850 Old Today, 06:20 PM
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P.S. How do you like the SD hardware, compared to Ceton's?
We replaced 2 Ceton InfiniTV 6 ETH's with 3 SiliconDust HDHomeRun Primes. Changing channels has been significantly faster with the SD tuners. We've had ZERO recording errors/issues* (see below) since the switch (we switched around Thanksgiving).

With the Ceton tuners, we had to reboot the PC's that used them weekly (and sometimes more often than that), had numerous "tuner not available" or other errors that resulted in either completely missed recordings or recordings that started late because WMC had to cycle through a bunch of tuners before finding a good one, had to reboot the tuners somewhat regularly, etc. I don't know if the difference is in the hardware or the software, but we're MUCH happier with the SD tuners. The only reason we waited so long to switch was 3 tuners in the SD Primes versus 6 in the Ceton's as we had to add a 3rd CableCard to our setup and still have 3 fewer tuners available.

The only minor issue is that SD doesn't have a tuner pooling feature like Ceton has, so if 2 PC's try to grab a tuner at the same time, one of them will put up an error about the tuner not being available, but immediately go to the next one without a problem. This could be minimized by reversing the tuner priority order on one of the PC's so they both work their way toward the middle of the tuner count rather than always fighting over the same tuner. What's weird though is that we also have 5 SD HDHomeRuns (the OTA version) and don't have the tuner conflict issue with them in the same sort of situation. But this is a very minor issue that's a lot easier to live with than the issues we were having with the Ceton tuners.
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