WMC ecosystem is finally complete, where are the extenders? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 27 Old 07-04-2011, 06:26 AM - Thread Starter
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With the release of the Ceton (wide availability) and Windows 7, we finally have a really complete solution for the "vision" of MC extenders laid out 5+ years ago. However, today the ecosystem looks almost dead; there are almost no 3rd party extenders still available, and the XB360 (after getting the much needed update to play MKV) seems to have stalled as well.

I don't really get it. If there was a MC Extender released for 150-200 dollars tomorrow that had "WDTV Live" level of media support, no HDD, fast boot, and low heat, I'd buy 4 of them in a heartbeat.

Any idea why the extenders seem to have died? The XB360 is a decent device, but it's media compatibility is just awful (no BD MKVs! Come on!), it's slow to start up, it's hot and noisy.. If someone gave us an extender with excellent media support, I'd have to believe that most/all of us would be all over it.

The biggest hurdle in the beginning was "no Cablecard" but now that's not longer an issue. The current is so close to perfect, I just don't understand why we don't see the final push (the extender, or, alternatively, a "softsled" extender that we can run on a general purpose PC).

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post #2 of 27 Old 07-04-2011, 06:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjfink View Post

With the release of the Ceton (wide availability) and Windows 7, we finally have a really complete solution for the "vision" of MC extenders laid out 5+ years ago. However, today the ecosystem looks almost dead; there are almost no 3rd party extenders still available, and the XB360 (after getting the much needed update to play MKV) seems to have stalled as well.

I don't really get it. If there was a MC Extender released for 150-200 dollars tomorrow that had "WDTV Live" level of media support, no HDD, fast boot, and low heat, I'd buy 4 of them in a heartbeat.

Any idea why the extenders seem to have died? The XB360 is a decent device, but it's media compatibility is just awful (no BD MKVs! Come on!), it's slow to start up, it's hot and noisy.. If someone gave us an extender with excellent media support, I'd have to believe that most/all of us would be all over it.

The biggest hurdle in the beginning was "no Cablecard" but now that's not longer an issue. The current is so close to perfect, I just don't understand why we don't see the final push (the extender, or, alternatively, a "softsled" extender that we can run on a general purpose PC).

I agree with you 100%.

And in my experience, using the 360 as an extender is sluggish.

I think MS has given up on it for the time being, maybe once windows 8 comes out we will see some improvements...

And if I were a manufacturer, I would have been discouraged if I put a device a few years ago. Extenders weren't realized for there potential back then. But man I would love to get some 100-200 dollar extenders that could play back live tv and all my media...
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post #3 of 27 Old 07-04-2011, 07:33 AM - Thread Starter
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"And if I were a manufacturer, I would have been discouraged if I put a device a few years ago. Extenders weren't realized for there potential back then. But man I would love to get some 100-200 dollar extenders that could play back live tv and all my media... "

It almost has to be a licensing issue (at least to some degree). How hard could it be for a WDTV Live (just as an example) to integrate MC functionality into the device?

My main requirements would be; instant boot, and tons of file format compatibility. There are about 100 products on the market that fit those requirements, unfortunately, not a single one can function as a MC extender.

MSFT dropped to ball (to some degree), but the real pain here was because of the Cablecards; until the Ceton, there was nothing that most of us could get/do to move those channels into the PC realm. If the Ceton's released the same time as the MC extenders (instead of 4 years later), I think the market would be very different today.

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post #4 of 27 Old 07-04-2011, 11:24 AM
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I believe that if you want to stay in an all WMC enviroment than WMC extenders are not an answer. In fact I am not sure it is worth the trouble to stay in in an all WMC enviroment.

I don't have a lot of WAF constraints. She never plays video in any room no matter how simple I make it. I literally gave up trying to make TV painless enough for her, it just would not matter.

So I have different solutions in the different rooms based around what seems optimal for the display size and type and what gear I already have to feed it. In fact this afternoon where I have an existing HP WMC Extender attached to a Panny Plasma I disconnected the PS3 andt moved a Sage HD 300 to duties with the HP WMC Extender. I will use the HP for Music, Live OTA and HD Cable. The Sage will stream the rest. I need to rework the remotes a bit

In the rest of the rooms I am using Win 7 PCs and again, WMC for TV (CABLE and Broadcast) but have moved to jRiver Media Center on those boxes for all else. Having enough decent AVR solutions for all those spots is tough as not everything I own will decode HD Audio streams. Not going to ditch zillion dollar receivers because they are not HDMI 1.3 or higher.

I had long hoped for simple single box, single remote solutions that maximized the utility of 4 cable tuners but it just doesn't work out. The closest you will get is WMC boxes everywhere but you run out of Ceton tuners fast in a single Ceton card system and I have come to the conclusion I want MadVR wherever I can have it.. Now if jRiver could support the cablecard tuners I would rethink the whole thing for 99th time. It is always a case of if..if this, if that.

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post #5 of 27 Old 07-04-2011, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtgray View Post

I believe that if you want to stay in an all WMC enviroment than WMC extenders are not an answer. In fact I am not sure it is worth the trouble to stay in in an all WMC enviroment.

The fact of the matter is you simply can't, WMC does not support a robust, whole-house media environment (ironic given they've got so many of the pieces, WHS server/backend, 3, 4, 6 tuner CableCard tuners, etc, already in place), unless you're willing to live within some very serious limitations. Namely choosing between no PC "clients", or no half decent media playback on "clients".

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post #6 of 27 Old 07-04-2011, 01:18 PM - Thread Starter
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gtgray,

Yup, what if's and "almosts" are the story of my configuration. 7MC with XB360s are very close to perfect for me, but their lack of robust media support is very annoying (and their sensitivity to any issues in the media file is also maddening). An XB360 (for live TV) and a computer (for MKV files and movies) would be "perfect", but it's such a PITA to keep it running (and I don't really want to have computers at every TV running all the time). And, of course, much of what the Ceton records can only be played on the XB360, so that's a problem as well.

I'm happy with what I've got, that's for sure. It's very functional, it incredibly good looking (thanks to MediaBrowser, WOW the interface is just amazing) and it's pretty easy to use. But the XB360 is "sensitive" and I have to have a crazy configuration on the computer to allow it to stream just a small subset of files. If MSFT released a patch tomorrow that allowed it to natively stream (like a WD Live, for example) most formats I'd be 99% on the way to nirvana.

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post #7 of 27 Old 07-04-2011, 01:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjfink View Post

gtgray,

If MSFT released a patch tomorrow that allowed it to natively stream (like a WD Live, for example) most formats I'd be 99% on the way to nirvana.

There is that crazy word again. "If" pigs could just fly!

Sage was closest but no DRM to get Copy Protected cable channels to work... Google killed that.

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post #8 of 27 Old 07-04-2011, 06:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtgray View Post

There is that crazy word again. "If" pigs could just fly!

Sage was closest but no DRM to get Copy Protected cable channels to work... Google killed that.

I know what you're saying. But the "final big step" is an extender with wide media format support, that's not a huge leap. 5 years ago, we were all looking for an OEM cable card tuner; the extender market was nonexistent, and even WMC wasn't ready for prime time.

We're so close now, and very oddly, it seems that the interest has gone DOWN the closer we get to being actually able to achieve it. A single update for a XB360 (or a Sage type extender that works with 7MC, or a Soflsled for 7MC) would get us over the hump to the "ultimate" media center setup. Don't get me wrong, what I have right now is light years ahead of most (non AVS, some of you guys here have me beat quite handily) people's setups. But it's just got little nagging issues that are so technically easy to solve, but so far down on the developer's lists; I wonder if they will ever be resolved.

The industry wants us to all move to "streaming everything" which, IMHO, is a step backwards. Ripped DVD/BD delivered via MediaBrowser on a 7MC computer with a Ceton is light years ahead of garbage NFLX streaming interface to an XB360. Streaming will have a place (which will continue to get bigger), but, for the time being, the ultimate collection setup is based on 7MC with MediaBrowser. Use something to rip BDs in full quality, and then something to skip the commercials out of all your Ceton delivered HD content. Finally, throw in some RSS setup w/torrents to get the "ultimate DVR" configuration. Streaming has nothing on this type of configuration, and never really will (at least not anything except tablets).

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post #9 of 27 Old 07-05-2011, 05:15 AM
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I think there are two reasons we may never see softsled or a more capable media center extender. First, we have to admit that we are a very small segment of MC7 users. Out of everyone I know only one other person uses a media center PC (my brother). I even know a few IT professionals, and they had never heard of a Ceton card. I wouldn't be surprised to see WMC phased out of Windows 8, not enough return on their investment.

Second is content control. Providers want total control over their content. If it were up to them we would never own any content, just rent it. I think we'll see that Google bought Sage just to eliminate a competitor that allows too much content control to the end user.

I've given up on the softsled/perfect extender dream. I just have a 360 and a PC at each viewing area. If the dream ever becomes reality I'll just sell the extra devices or add new veiwing areas to our house.
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post #10 of 27 Old 07-05-2011, 05:50 AM - Thread Starter
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CShaw,

On the first point, I totally agree. However, I'd add that the reason we're a small segment is, until the release of the Ceton, there wasn't really a great way to have a media center PC that could do everything most people wanted. Also, 7MC isn't a well marketed product. I can say honestly, every single person who's ever seen my setup and used it to watch anything has said exactly the same thing "This is awesome, how do I buy this". The demand is there for something like my (and probably your) configuration, it's just that there's no marketing or companies selling systems designed to function like this (telling someone to go to NewEgg and AVS forums.. I might as well tell them to fly to Mars and get a special rock, it's just not going to happen).

I agree on the content control angle. However, that's not really MSFTs (or Sage, or MediaBrowser... etc) problem. The content providers keep this "pay per watch" dream alive, and, as they do, the market continues to move away from them. If there's a way to break the protection (as their currently is on EVERY single media out there) people are going to break it and distribute it the way consumers want it. Most consumers don't know what they want (but I think I do, 1080P full resolution MKVs are really what the "distribution medium" should be; coupled with a service like NTFX that allows unlimited downloading), but they are pretty confident that cable TV where "Millionaire" starts at 8 and has 30 mins of commercials for 25 mins of programming isn't it!

I agree; 7MC has never gotten the following that was expected, and it wouldn't be shocked to see it disappear in the next version (or just become a legacy product, no longer updated).

I wonder if the movie companies are going to see the same thing happen that the music companies did? Be so hard headed that people become more comfortable stealing your content than actually buying it? Apple has helped, but there's an entire generation of folks who equate music with "an MP3" and have no concept of paying for music. It's a different issue, but, as you point out, it's probably linked to the reason we don't see the "perfect extender" out in the market.

I wish a little boutique shop (Ceton, for example) would pop up and release a new extender; I think that's our only hope for getting the perfect configuration anymore.

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post #11 of 27 Old 07-05-2011, 06:19 AM
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I agree, I resorted to purchasing old refurbished units on ebay. Hopefully they work out, or else I'll be looking elsewhere again for my Media Extender needs, and I'm not sure where else to look!
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post #12 of 27 Old 07-05-2011, 06:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjfink View Post

I wish a little boutique shop (Ceton, for example) would pop up and release a new extender; I think that's our only hope for getting the perfect configuration anymore.

I'm actually surprised that they haven't done so, or at least thought about it.

Microsoft and Acer/Gateway demoed a WMC embedded box (w/a cable card tuner) earlier this year which *may* also be an extender, so this would be a perfect fit to complement the Ceton card as you said.

I hope the WMC embedded devices hit the market this year, and that they include extender functionality.
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post #13 of 27 Old 07-05-2011, 06:28 AM - Thread Starter
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AFAIK, none of the extenders have "good" media compatability. The XB360 works fine as a live TV (and recorded TV) extender, it's the MKV files (specifically BD rips) that it totally takes a cr*p on.

CShaw has the best possible configuration right now, a small HTPC at each viewing location and an XB360 (to do all the LiveTV and RecordedTV).

Stinks that's the best we have to offer right now. Even 2 devices (like a WDTV Live and XB360) would be better than a full blown computer at each location. I hate maintaining W7, anything that reduces/eliminates that need would be much appreciated!

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post #14 of 27 Old 07-05-2011, 07:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjfink View Post
CShaw,

On the first point, I totally agree. However, I'd add that the reason we're a small segment is, until the release of the Ceton, there wasn't really a great way to have a media center PC that could do everything most people wanted. Also, 7MC isn't a well marketed product. I can say honestly, every single person who's ever seen my setup and used it to watch anything has said exactly the same thing "This is awesome, how do I buy this". The demand is there for something like my (and probably your) configuration, it's just that there's no marketing or companies selling systems designed to function like this (telling someone to go to NewEgg and AVS forums.. I might as well tell them to fly to Mars and get a special rock, it's just not going to happen).
Couldn't agree more with your points. Every person who has ever seen my setup is blown away by it. Sadly most don't have the time/money/know how to do the same. The average person had a hard enough time just setting the clock on their VCR.

I agree too that MS dropped the ball with MC7. I never really saw any add campain from them that illustrated the true capabilities of MC7. They spent all their dough on "I'm a PC" adds to compete with Apple. Maybe if they had showcased what MC7 can do they would move more units.
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post #15 of 27 Old 07-05-2011, 07:18 AM
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Unfortunately, you can't even do it right with two HTPCs. You /have/ to have an extender in order for your recorded TV library to function properly.

I prefer to run an HTPC in each spot, because I have the added flexibility of gaming, XBMC, etc... but where WMC really falls down is in its inability to act as an extender.
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post #16 of 27 Old 07-05-2011, 08:19 AM
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From a developer's point of view, we (J. River) would love to support Ceton, but most systems like this are either closed to small developers or require a "membership" payment that is just out of reach. And that may be related to the content owners wanting to keep club membership to a trusted few.

If we were able to partner with Microsoft to do this, we'd probably be back in DRM land, like the middle years of digital music before MP3 was accepted by content owners. We'd also be limited in what we could do with the content. Loading a phone with video wouldn't work with Android, etc.

At least that's my take on the situation. Maybe I'm mistaken.

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post #17 of 27 Old 07-05-2011, 08:28 AM
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I don't understand all this "kvetching" yes, I said "kvetching"

Yes, extenders were ahead of their time, but they are atill available on the secondary market, and at a much more attractive price than the original MSRP.

I have used Linksys, D-Link and HP extenders, and they are very stable, low power, and can do 90% of what WMC7 on the main PC does with the right software solutions.

I agree, there is a HUGE demand for systems like WMC 7 with the whole house integration and media centralization. I have people comment on the system at home, and then, they become customers. Then, their friends become customers. I have been building a few of these before Ceton came out with ATI DCT's, and now with Ceton cards, I am busy building, and setting up systems.

Using quality hardware components systems are super stable. I am amazed that Microsoft finally came out with an OS that can literally run 24/7/365.

6 TV's in the house on FiOS and we only pay $4.99/month to connect them all!!! Power to the CableCard and WMC7!!!
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post #18 of 27 Old 07-05-2011, 08:35 AM - Thread Starter
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"I don't understand all this "kvetching" yes, I said "kvetching""

LOL.

Well, maybe I'm just not using the right extenders! Here's a list of my requirements, is there something out there that can do this (that maybe I don't know about?):

Function as a 7MC extender (live TV, MediaBrowser interface, etc)?
Playback a wide variety of media files (720P/1080P MKVs with HD audio being the big ones for me)
Boot fast (<10 seconds from power on until welcome screen to Media Center)

Really doesn't seem like a big list. The XB360 hits the first requirement, but falls apart on media compatibility (and stability; lots of 720P MKVs will break on the 360, but play fine a real computer). The 3rd requirement is a "nice to have", but would really be great if it's doable.

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post #19 of 27 Old 07-05-2011, 08:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Yeah, if 7MC would act as an extender (softsled), I think most of the complaining would stop. It's that you need a full feature PC AND an XB360 at each location to have "perfect" compatibility that really annoys people. Ceton network tuners helps the situation (at least you can have LiveTV at each location), but still no joy on the RecordedTV problem.

The perfect solution is an extender with "MPC-HC" level media playback capabilities (basically, internal filters for everything you throw at it). Which seems really really easy to achieve, there's about 100 products on the market right now (at 100 bucks or less) that can play back just about every media file in existence. Just not a single one of them that can function as an extender.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DravenGSX View Post
Unfortunately, you can't even do it right with two HTPCs. You /have/ to have an extender in order for your recorded TV library to function properly.

I prefer to run an HTPC in each spot, because I have the added flexibility of gaming, XBMC, etc... but where WMC really falls down is in its inability to act as an extender.

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post #20 of 27 Old 07-05-2011, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by jriver View Post
From a developer's point of view, we (J. River) would love to support Ceton, but most systems like this are either closed to small developers or require a "membership" payment that is just out of reach. And that may be related to the content owners wanting to keep club membership to a trusted few.

If we were able to partner with Microsoft to do this, we'd probably be back in DRM land, like the middle years of digital music before MP3 was accepted by content owners. We'd also be limited in what we could do with the content. Loading a phone with video wouldn't work with Android, etc.

At least that's my take on the situation. Maybe I'm mistaken.
The right support for a Ceton and HD Prime would get mucho attention for jRiver MC which is largely unknown even in the AVSforums community. If those trying to use HTPCs with WMC are a tiny minority, then those using jRiver are a subset of a subset of a subset. Cable Card tuner support added to MC16 would put MC16 front and center in this community anyway. DRM on cable content would have to be respected...

On Sage there was a back door level of support for the Ceton using Media Ceter recrding service to schedule and view the Ceton live and recorded within Sage.. It was not a Sage product but a work around by an avid user who did the code and offered it as freeware. It actually used WMC to do the recording and capture the stream. It works nicely..

There was no support for protected channel content with Sage hack. But in a lot of markets copy freely flagged channels make up the bulk of cable channels.

Maybe whoever did the hack to make the Cetons work could tweak it and support MC16.. it would not address the extender aspect directly but it would make jRiver MC a more complete solution. Right now you can view recorded TV content to some degree in jRiver.

People should take a look a jRiver MC 16. I am using it as front end much more than WMC now and I am just begining to scratch the surface of the software. There is support for the typical ATSC solutions already there. I am not quite sure about how that works for the moment with the HD Homerun. I will hash that one out over at their forum.

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post #21 of 27 Old 07-05-2011, 02:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjfink View Post

Well, maybe I'm just not using the right extenders! Here's a list of my requirements, is there something out there that can do this (that maybe I don't know about?):

Function as a 7MC extender (live TV, MediaBrowser interface, etc)?
Playback a wide variety of media files (720P/1080P MKVs with HD audio being the big ones for me)
Boot fast (<10 seconds from power on until welcome screen to Media Center)

Yup, I need a solution that will support:
  • TV: LiveTV, recorded TV, scheduling/management of recordings.
  • Media: DVDs, Blu-ray (or at least native BD audio/video)
  • Satellite: HD PVR/Colossus
  • No PCs as frontends, or at least no decoder futzing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gtgray View Post

On Sage there was a back door level of support for the Ceton using Media Ceter recrding service to schedule and view the Ceton live and recorded within Sage.. It was not a Sage product but a work around by an avid user who did the code and offered it as freeware. It actually used WMC to do the recording and capture the stream. It works nicely..

Actually the most recent iteration doesn't use WMC to record.

The thing that's nice about SageTV is it supports a network based API for tuners, so it's really easy to add new tuners.

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post #22 of 27 Old 07-05-2011, 02:26 PM
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Wasn't Windows embedded supposed to be the next extender?
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post #23 of 27 Old 07-05-2011, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Emerlin View Post

Wasn't Windows embedded supposed to be the next extender?

i never saw anything pointing to that conclusion.




xbox has its limitations; if you can work within them, it works great.

for me, the trick is keeping bitrate less than 15Mbps, using ac3 audio, and putting everything in the .wtv container. that's not acceptible for some people i know, but for me, i have no hassles with my system and for $200 i can put a stb that plays video games in each room, as well as all of my ripped content (movies, music), live/recorded tv and fm radio. also, my xbox has never seen the problems with netflix like the htpc users, and the native hulu app is great, as well as espn.


the xbox on a wired network is just as responsive as the htpc, provided you've got a decent router and reasonable power in the host PC.
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post #24 of 27 Old 07-05-2011, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by brantmacga View Post

i never saw anything pointing to that conclusion.

http://www.engadget.com/2010/04/27/w...edded-devices/

http://www.missingremote.com/news/20...enter-embedded

http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2010-05/...tpc-extenders/

Conclusion, perhaps not - implied intent and a great idea, yes.

Take a look at the posts - there were many others like these on the interwebs. At the time Microsoft made the embedded announcement many people theorized (prayed) that this would lead the way to a whole new platform of for for media center to run in CE devices. Perhaps something an Apple TV like device that could run windows - or how about a blu ray player with media center app? If Netflix can get the job done why not Microsoft?

To be clear, W7 embedded is not necessary an extender but a stand alone OS that provides for the similar functionality.

Seems to me it is was a good idea that no one has implemented because extenders are dead in the manufactures eyes - been there done that. Media center is a dead concept to the public. I think W7 embedded was a new way introduce people to Media Center, but it went nowhere. A shame in my opinion as the "ecosystem" as has been put it is finally ready for prime time. I would love to replace my 4 power hungry PCs with a small friendly box the give me Media Center functionality in a small package at a small price. Get everything up on the network and you have a media sharing system that can be unmatched IMHO.

I may have missed it above - but WHS is also an integral piece of the puzzle. With the connector tool it can bring all the recorded content back to a central location and serve it to all the connected computers without any complex sharing and rights management. It does much more than that, but that is a neat feature. Now how about put a (Ceton or the like) tuner card in the server and create a server application to record programs and make them available to the clients... perhaps that makes too much sense.
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post #25 of 27 Old 07-05-2011, 06:27 PM
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Conclusion, perhaps not - implied intent and a great idea, yes.

i saw nothing but the writer's own speculation; there's been no word from microsoft or any manufacturer providing even a remote possibility that softsled is coming.


now for a bit of my own speculation; i don't think you'll see softsled ever, at least not from microsoft as long as the xbox is a supported extender. MS wants you to have an xbox, and they want you to have a live gold account.


i agree it would be an awesome option, but even if available i'd still go with my xbox extenders. its just too simple to give up.
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post #26 of 27 Old 07-05-2011, 06:46 PM
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i saw nothing but the writer's own speculation; there's been no word from microsoft or any manufacturer providing even a remote possibility that softsled is coming.

Actually Haier produced a couple of models that were intended for the Asian market. I am not sure if they ever made it to consumers or not.

I would imagine that if MS developed this embedded technology, they had hoped there would be some interest from manufactures to implement the technology. If you build it they will come... Not that MS has not wasted R&D on technologies that never made it, but I, again, think this was a missed opportunity to reintroduce it to the public. Just put a new wrapper on it and create a solid marketing campaign. New DVR service from Microsoft! - I can see it all now. They had the "record it in one room and watch it in another" long before the satellite clowns got it done.

I agree that it is a very long long shot at best. I think MS would be better served by a $99 box that was inline with the rest of the world. Many people are turned off by the fact that it is a gaming machine, and is an antiquated DVD player. I think you would find a MS TV a simple solution as well if one existed. Too bad we will likely get the chance to find out.
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post #27 of 27 Old 07-06-2011, 05:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Softsled would actually be my "2nd best" choice. First choice would be an update from MSFT that gives the XB360 good media compatibility. That's the "one leg" that's really broken on the table right now. If the XB could play most/all media files, I think most would agree "It's pretty close to perfect". The problem is; the XB is missing some REALLY BIG things when it comes to media playback. It can't playback any kind of BD rip (without a downconversion, which, for me (and most, I'd assume) is unacceptable). It doesn't do anything with HD audio. It's MP3 playback is "adequate" at best (has trouble with some VBR formats that are encoded too high).

I'd be happy to buy 360s for every TV (truth be told, that's what I've got now). But they need to get solid media format support to make the "ecosystem" complete. This "90s" media support on a device that's a capable computer is laughable. Port MPC-HC and ffdshow to the XB360 and we've got a real solution here.

Also, the way that movie playback is handled with extenders doesn't make a whole lot of sense. The XB should connect to the 7MC computer for the interface, and then, when a file is selected, it should just play that file from the network location. Today is plays "through" the PC, which, although it works, it's kind of kludgy (and makes filter setup (like DivX Tech Preview, for example) a nightmare on the host PC). Just go to the share and open the file (like a WD-TV Live does it). But, hey, if they got better media support, I could care less HOW it plays it! _



Quote:
Originally Posted by brantmacga View Post
i saw nothing but the writer's own speculation; there's been no word from microsoft or any manufacturer providing even a remote possibility that softsled is coming.


now for a bit of my own speculation; i don't think you'll see softsled ever, at least not from microsoft as long as the xbox is a supported extender. MS wants you to have an xbox, and they want you to have a live gold account.


i agree it would be an awesome option, but even if available i'd still go with my xbox extenders. its just too simple to give up.

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