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post #1471 of 1489 Old 11-22-2014, 07:13 AM
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Originally Posted by jriver View Post
Maybe.


It changes the input side of MC, so you're capturing what the sound card would normally receive. It doesn't change the output side of MC.


If you haven't previously tried MC20, you can get a 30 day trial of the full version.


Here's the email we sent:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=93563.0
Sorry, I guess this was a loaded question. But, if I can control each channel separately (not sure about that) rather than an overall fq parametric control, I'll upgrade. I have a very good system now with the Denon X4000, and XT-32, but would like to control each channel depending on content played. I have MC18 now, so didn't see the 8 channel control setup. Maybe in combination with ASIO(4all) mode? I'm trying to get a tailored response between subs and 7 mains. There are some interesting playback mods at http://data-bass.ipbhost.com/index.p...movies-thread/ I'd like to try.
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post #1472 of 1489 Old 11-22-2014, 07:27 AM
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Originally Posted by sbdman View Post
Sorry, I guess this was a loaded question. But, if I can control each channel separately (not sure about that) rather than an overall fq parametric control, I'll upgrade. I have a very good system now with the Denon X4000, and XT-32, but would like to control each channel depending on content played. I have MC18 now, so didn't see the 8 channel control setup. Maybe in combination with ASIO(4all) mode? I'm trying to get a tailored response between subs and 7 mains. There are some interesting playback mods at http://data-bass.ipbhost.com/index.p...movies-thread/ I'd like to try.
yes you can apply BassEQ using jriver, sample screenshot from dsp studio to show how you configure it

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post #1473 of 1489 Old 11-22-2014, 07:28 AM
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It would be best to post your question on our forum.


MC's DSP Studio has a lot of options.


Zones might also be useful.


The wiki has a lot of information.


We don't recommend ASIO4all. It's just a wrapper for Kernel Streaming.

Jim Hillegass / JRiver Media Center
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post #1474 of 1489 Old 11-22-2014, 07:58 AM
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Any Thanksgiving or Black Friday deals on upgrades? ;D

My Home Theater/Video Gaming/HTPC/2 Channel rig (Mitsubishi, MartinLogan, Marantz, DIYMA, and others)

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post #1475 of 1489 Old 11-22-2014, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by fitbrit View Post
What you are asking for is very easily doable with JRiver Media Center.
You need to install JRiver MC on both laptops - you may do so in accordance with the JRiver licencing terms.

On the dedicated 'server' laptop, you should enable Media Server.
It's to be found under Tools>Options>Media Network.
Check the very first box: Use Media Network to share this library and enable DLNA.

An access code will be generated, and you will be given the option to activate authentication (add a username and password).

On the other 'client' laptop, you should also go to the Media Network options section. (It's to be found under Tools>Options>Media Network.)
Go to Client Options (when connected to a library server) by clicking on the little arrow next to the text.
Check the first three boxes.
The second one is a special case, and you can get help on setting that up properly another time, but for now it's ok to have it checked.

Under Audio Conversion:

Either check Don't Convert Audio, or Convert Audio if Necessary.
If you check the latter, you will be presented with a choice of which encoder you wish to use to convert non-streamable files to a streamable format.

Now on the 'client', you can go to:
File> Library> Library Manager
Click: Add Library
Click: Library Server (this will cause the client laptop to look for your server laptop)
Enter the access code (from the server laptop setup above), and authentication information when prompted. (This will allow the client laptop to connect to the server laptop and use the latter's library).
Now you can play anything on the client, and it will stream from the server laptop.

Altogether the above procedures make the music on the dedicated laptop available for sharing on the other laptop.

This should get you up and running. Ideally, you would also map the drive on the dedicated laptop that contains the audio files, and share it on the other laptop so that the path to the music is the same on both computers. Then there will never be a need to convert. If this seems like another language to you, you can ask for help or read about it elsewhere. UNC paths are another solution, but I know little about these to help.
Very nice guide, Thanks. I currently have all my media files on a 60 TB media server running whs 2011 with all the media folders shared with my home network. I don't have jriver loaded on the server. I do have jriver on several HTPCs throughout the house as standalones with the library pointed to the media server folders and then I play any media from the HTPCs which seems to work fine, was wondering if there is any advantage to setting it up as described above with jriver on the server?

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post #1476 of 1489 Old 11-22-2014, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by millst View Post
Ask and you shall receive...

20.0.41 (11/20/2014)
6. NEW: Added Options > Audio > Advanced > Disable dither to disable any dithering in the playback engine.
Well that's good. I would still prefer that they fixed their own dither than have users replace it with a plugin, but that's fine for stereo playback.

I can't seem to find any VST plugins which apply dither to a multichannel signal though.
Everything I have tried so far only seems to affect the left and right channels.
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post #1477 of 1489 Old 11-23-2014, 10:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HTPCat View Post
Very nice guide, Thanks. I currently have all my media files on a 60 TB media server running whs 2011 with all the media folders shared with my home network. I don't have jriver loaded on the server. I do have jriver on several HTPCs throughout the house as standalones with the library pointed to the media server folders and then I play any media from the HTPCs which seems to work fine, was wondering if there is any advantage to setting it up as described above with jriver on the server?
Not really - as long as you are on a switched network with enough throughput, and your router and/or switches properly handle the flow control. It sounds like you already have all of these things.

What I DO like having on my server is my ripping tools. MakeMKV rips for movies and some new BD Surround Music rips with DVDAE can take a while, and doing it to a local disk and not having to move the rips over the wire goes a lot faster for me. I use JRMC for tagging, organization, and as media server only.

FYI - my setup is actually a little more odd than this. I commute to another city 4 days a week for work. I got sick of not having my music with me, so I got a Gigabyte BRIX, crammed it with 16GB of ram and 1TB mSATA SSD, and installed JRMC there. When I am home I use a file syncing app to make the music directories on the BRIX drive match the music directories on my server. Then I can take the Brix with me, plug it in at the other location and use it as an HTPC (via HDMI). Expensive little bugger - but LITTLE...and speedy...and works great.
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Speakers: (4) Monitor Audio Silver 9i (Front and Surround), (1) Monitor Audio Silver 12i (Center), (4) Monitor Audio Silver 4i (Rear and Wide), (2) Aperion Audio Bravus II 8d (Subwoofers)
Receiver: Pioneer Elite SC-87 AVR (9.2)
Sources: Oppo BDP-103, Roku 3, Cable...
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post #1478 of 1489 Old 11-23-2014, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by LairdWilliams View Post
Not really - as long as you are on a switched network with enough throughput, and your router and/or switches properly handle the flow control. It sounds like you already have all of these things.

What I DO like having on my server is my ripping tools. MakeMKV rips for movies and some new BD Surround Music rips with DVDAE can take a while, and doing it to a local disk and not having to move the rips over the wire goes a lot faster for me. I use JRMC for tagging, organization, and as media server only.

FYI - my setup is actually a little more odd than this. I commute to another city 4 days a week for work. I got sick of not having my music with me, so I got a Gigabyte BRIX, crammed it with 16GB of ram and 1TB mSATA SSD, and installed JRMC there. When I am home I use a file syncing app to make the music directories on the BRIX drive match the music directories on my server. Then I can take the Brix with me, plug it in at the other location and use it as an HTPC (via HDMI). Expensive little bugger - but LITTLE...and speedy...and works great.
Yeah, my network is all good. I don't rip directly from my server, but rather from one of my HTPCs that is setup for ripping Blu-ray & DVD movies and audio dics, SACDs, DVD-As, CDs & Vinyl all to lossless flac files (most of which are High Resolution). They are all written to the server via the network and works fast enough. I also travel for work but only 2 weeks a month and have recently acquired a Pono portable music player that plays many types of Hi-Rez lossless files including flacs. It uses a JRiver app to transfer and sync files from the PC to the player and I am loving it so far. I plan on jacking it to the car system so I can play my flac files in the car as well.

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post #1479 of 1489 Old Yesterday, 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by millst View Post
Ask and you shall receive...

20.0.41 (11/20/2014)
6. NEW: Added Options > Audio > Advanced > Disable dither to disable any dithering in the playback engine.
OMG. Sabotaging themselves, everything to avoid fixing a trivial problem...
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post #1480 of 1489 Old Yesterday, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by IgorZep View Post
OMG. Sabotaging themselves, everything to avoid fixing a trivial problem...
Sheesh. Is there really no way to please people? People bitched and bitched about not liking their dithering algorithm, so they give you a way to turn it off and that's still not good enough? I'm all for fixing problems, but since JRiver disagrees that a problem even exists, giving you a way to turn it off when there's also a plugin mechanism strikes me as a perfectly reasonable solution. If you think you can implement dithering better, there's nothing stopping you from writing a plugin.
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post #1481 of 1489 Old Yesterday, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by gsr View Post
If you think you can implement dithering better, there's nothing stopping you from writing a plugin.
Code:
int bytes = bits / 8;
int scale = 1 << bits;

int offset = 0;

for (int i = 0; i < in.length; i++) {
	double sample = in[i] * scale;

	// iterate channels in pairs (for TPDF dither optimization)
	for (int c = 0; c < channels; c +=2) {
		double r1 = r.nextDouble(); // random number in range [0, 1)
		double r2 = r.nextDouble();

		{
			double val = sample+r1-r2;
			offset = putLittleEndian(out, offset, bytes, val);
		}

		if (c+1 < channels) {
			double val = sample+r1+r2-1d;
			offset = putLittleEndian(out, offset, bytes, val);
		}
	}
}

int putLittleEndian(byte[] out, int offset, int bytes, double value) {
	int q = (int) value;

	for (int i = 0; i < bytes; i++, q >>= 8) {
		out[offset++] = (byte) ((q) & 0xFF);
	}

	return offset;
}
Dithering interleaved buffer, stolen from my signal generator, tested, works for 8bit multiplies output (16&24bit).

You are free to translate it to C (or to any language you can do a plugin with) and wrap it to JRiver plugin. I can't (or not willing to) do anything for JRiver (the player and the company) as I've been banned by them...
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post #1482 of 1489 Old Yesterday, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by gsr View Post
Sheesh. Is there really no way to please people? People bitched and bitched about not liking their dithering algorithm, so they give you a way to turn it off and that's still not good enough? I'm all for fixing problems, but since JRiver disagrees that a problem even exists, giving you a way to turn it off when there's also a plugin mechanism strikes me as a perfectly reasonable solution.
It is good that you can now disable their dither again, and replace it with a plugin.
The problem that has now surfaced, is that I have been unable to find a plugin which properly dithers multichannel signals. All of the plugins I have tried have been designed for music production and are stereo. Voxengo Elephant will do it, you have to change the default channel routing.

2LSB TPDF is the industry standard.

It is the standard because there is no distortion or noise modulation, and is equivalent to analog noise, unlike other dithers.
The worst thing it can do if it becomes audible, is add a bit of hiss to the output.

Switching from the 1LSB RPDF which they currently use to 2LSB TPDF should not be a difficult change for JRiver to make. It's not like we're requesting complex non-standard dither algorithms and noise shaping options here. We're asking them to switch to the industry standard - or provide it as an option, if not the default.

It seems like stubbornness more than anything else. It has since been deleted, but Matt's most recent post on the subject was stating that this is not a "real problem".


On some of my 16-bit devices there is a clear problem with their current dither.
On my 24-bit devices there is a subtle but worthwhile improvement to be had by replacing their dither with a TPDF plugin.

The problem is that with dither being a global on/off option now, I can either:
1. Disable their dither and replace it with a stereo plugin for music, leaving multichannel content undithered.
2. Use the JRiver dither, compromising music quality for the sake of having some dither applied to multichannel playback, since that's still a lot better than no dither at all.

So while I appreciate that it's optional at least, in its current implementation it doesn't actually help things at all.
It would be a lot simpler if they changed the default dither or added an option for 2LSB TPDF, which would benefit all users, not only those who know enough or care enough to pay for a plugin.

Until I did testing on the different dithers, I assumed the problem I had been hearing was the DAC, not their software. I'm sure that there are many other people who would hear the difference, but not know that things could sound better on the same hardware, or that this is the cause.

I suspect it would be one of those changes which spawns a number of those "Did something change? It sounds a lot better now..." type posts.

And even if it did not, at least now you conform to the standard used by everything else in the industry, and are not introducing distortion into the playback chain - even if it's mostly at a low volume level.
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post #1483 of 1489 Old Today, 02:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post
It is good that you can now disable their dither again, and replace it with a plugin.
The problem that has now surfaced, is that I have been unable to find a plugin which properly dithers multichannel signals. All of the plugins I have tried have been designed for music production and are stereo.

2LSB TPDF is the industry standard.

It is the standard because there is no distortion or noise modulation, and is equivalent to analog noise, unlike other dithers.
The worst thing it can do if it becomes audible, is add a bit of hiss to the output.

Switching from the 1LSB RPDF which they currently use to 2LSB TPDF should not be a difficult change for JRiver to make. It's not like we're requesting complex non-standard dither algorithms and noise shaping options here. We're asking them to switch to the industry standard - or provide it as an option, if not the default.

It seems like stubbornness more than anything else. It has since been deleted, but Matt's most recent post on the subject was stating that this is not a "real problem".


On some of my 16-bit devices there is a clear problem with their current dither.
On my 24-bit devices there is a subtle but worthwhile improvement to be had by replacing their dither with a TPDF plugin.

The problem is that with dither being a global on/off option now, I can either:
1. Disable their dither and replace it with a stereo plugin for music, leaving multichannel content undithered.
2. Use the JRiver dither, compromising music quality for the sake of having some dither applied to multichannel playback, since that's still a lot better than no dither at all.

So while I appreciate that it's optional at least, in its current implementation it doesn't actually help things at all.
It would be a lot simpler if they changed the default dither or added an option for 2LSB TPDF, which would benefit all users, not only those who know enough or care enough to pay for a plugin.

Until I did testing on the different dithers, I assumed the problem I had been hearing was the DAC, not their software. I'm sure that there are many other people who would hear the difference, but not know that things could sound better on the same hardware, or that this is the cause.

I suspect it would be one of those changes which spawns a number of those "Did something change? It sounds a lot better now..." type posts.

And even if it did not, at least now you conform to the standard used by everything else in the industry, and are not introducing distortion into the playback chain - even if it's mostly at a low volume level.
Despite being a staunch supporter of JRiver, recent events are making me have second thoughts... TBH...

This type of posting would most likely have been deleted already if it was on their forum...

While they deserve all due respect for the great audio tool, I think honest feedback in the recent times is becoming more difficult for them to handle and as such they begin to keep their passionate clients at bay little by little...

IMO, the request being made here should be something that they would have thought about and implemented ever before anyone could have the idea of coming to post it out here,
But as it is for now, they keep adding new features which keep creating new problems and leaving the old issues unattended to... feedback or no feedback, they do whatever they feel is best in their opinion,

My Windows MC is currently on V17 used for audio only, and it stays that way until further notice...
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post #1484 of 1489 Old Today, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by balky View Post
Despite being a staunch supporter of JRiver, recent events are making me have second thoughts... TBH...

This type of posting would most likely have been deleted already if it was on their forum...
Chronoptimist asked for an option for dither to be turned off at on November 19 at 10:40 pm and JRiver had already implemented it by November 20 at 8:29 am. What other software company will implement a change that fast?

I mentioned in the dither thread that Voxengo Elephant works just fine for multichannel dither. Bob Katz even used it for his testing. Yet here Chronoptimist is now complaining that he has no multi-channel VST plugin. Sometimes his complaints are contrary to actual facts and become tiresome. It seems like stubbornness more than anything else.
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post #1485 of 1489 Old Today, 08:30 AM
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We've got two public levels of software available.

Stable is what we think is best for most users. It's on the Download Page at jriver.com

Latest is often newer, but sometimes has new problems. It's on the MC20 board on our forum.

Users have a choice.

More here:
http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Updates

And anyone is free to write their own player or run their own forum. It's really fun.

Jim Hillegass / JRiver Media Center
jriver.com or Owners Thread at AVSForum
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post #1486 of 1489 Old Today, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
Chronoptimist asked for an option for dither to be turned off at on November 19 at 10:40 pm and JRiver had already implemented it by November 20 at 8:29 am. What other software company will implement a change that fast?

I mentioned in the dither thread that Voxengo Elephant works just fine for multichannel dither. Bob Katz even used it for his testing. Yet here Chronoptimist is now complaining that he has no multi-channel VST plugin. Sometimes his complaints are contrary to actual facts and become tiresome. It seems like stubbornness more than anything else.
You're absolutely right. It seems that by default it is only active on the left and right channels, but if you route all the channels to group 1 it does work with multichannel signals. Blame my lack of familiarity with it.
It's a $120 solution to a problem that shouldn't be there, but at least it means we have a solution.

Last edited by Chronoptimist; Today at 09:58 AM.
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post #1487 of 1489 Old Today, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post
Switching from the 1LSB RPDF which they currently use to 2LSB TPDF should not be a difficult change for JRiver to make. It's not like we're requesting complex non-standard dither algorithms and noise shaping options here. We're asking them to switch to the industry standard - or provide it as an option, if not the default.
They use TPDF dither. It was first implemented back in 2010 when the internal bit depth was increased to 64 bit. There was also a beta team discussion at the time relating to how dither should be implemented with links to 27 other articles/discussions. It was thoroughly vetted. Now you are arguing whether it is RPDF vs TPDF?
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post #1488 of 1489 Old Today, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
They use TPDF dither. It was first implemented back in 2010 when the internal bit depth was increased to 64 bit. There was also a beta team discussion at the time relating to how dither should be implemented with links to 27 other articles/discussions. It was thoroughly vetted. Now you are arguing whether it is RPDF vs TPDF?
Strange, the noise modulates with the signal, and it sounds exactly like 1LSB RPDF: https://www.sendspace.com/file/1p7g7w
If it's TPDF - and I'm not sure that it is - it's 1LSB TPDF rather than 2LSB.
And that makes their refusal to comment on what dither they are using even stranger.
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post #1489 of 1489 Old Today, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
They use TPDF dither.
They don't. TPDF dither is defined with an amplitude of 2LSB peak-to-peak. Whatever they use is not more than 1LSB in amplitude and they also repeatedly re-confirm it with their "bit-perfect" claims.

Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
There was also a beta team discussion at the time relating to how dither should be implemented with links to 27 other articles/discussions. It was thoroughly vetted. Now you are arguing whether it is RPDF vs TPDF?
It seems discussion was not productive enough as four years later they do not understand what the TPDF dither is, and why it is defined exactly that way. And they call scientists who fundamentally analyzed the quantization and found optimal distributions and amplitudes of dither an 'esoterics'... Nice
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