JRiver Media Center Owner's Thread - Page 76 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

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post #2251 of 2274 Old 08-19-2016, 09:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
In the last week or so I've updated to Windows 10. In that, I reinstalled JRiver v22. Since that point it seems I can't play Dolby True HD clips without stuttering. Dolby clips work fine. It's just Dolby True HD clips. The audio is smooth, but the video stutters. (almost looks like it's loading, jumpy, stuttering, dropping frames.)

Any ideas? Something is off with a codec I guess.
I'm following this discussion as well. How about DTS?

I started getting random video playback issues in the past few months. I am on JRiver 21, but haven't been able to pinpoint the problem. Seems like if I stop playback and then start it again, it works perfectly for the entire rest of the movie.

I too moved to Windows 10 a couple of months ago, but don't recall exactly when the video playback studdering (almost like a "bad buffering" issue) started, but it was within the last couple of months. I've tried power cycling all network hardware, restarting the server running JRiver, and the HTPC always gets shut down between uses. Made sure all Windows updates were there, etc. Seems like no matter what I try, it still does it.

Everything is uncompressed MKV across gigabit networking. My server and HTPC are quite powerful actually (overkill for what most people use). Playback is typically flawless for 10-20 minutes, then this happens, then I press stop on the remote (JRiver jumps back to the movie selection screen), and select "Watch" again. It picks up where it left off, and the whole rest of the movie will playback flawlessly.

Not saying that my issue is related, but this is something that started for me in the past couple of months, and it might correlate to the Windows 10 upgrade myself. I will try some Dolby and Dolby TrueHD tonight and see if I can get it to fail in similar ways...
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post #2252 of 2274 Old 08-19-2016, 01:19 PM
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I downloaded a Dolby True HD demo disk and every track that has the Dolby True HD logo in the bottom right is stuttery. Dolby Digital tracks, stereo, and everything else, DTS, and DTS-X work fine. It's only Dolby True HD that is broken. (audio is fine, video really jumpy, dropping frames, unwatchable)

My issue is on an overbuilt machine as well.

I should have provided this info originally but I'm on a
I7 -4770K
Fury X video card
16GB RAM

playing over HDMI bit streaming to a Denon AVR x7200WA.

Video is on Red October High Quality, (but it doesn't matter - ALLLLLLLL standard skips too)

To make it even more interesting - last night I figured out Windows Media player stutters on the same Dolby Digital True HD demo clips, as does VLC, as does Kodi.

So it's NOT just J-River. It's something else - and I have no idea what's doing it.

----------------------------------------
February 2017 - Kansas City Home Theater Crawl
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post #2253 of 2274 Old 08-25-2016, 11:23 AM
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I created 8 mono impulse response filters in wav format using REW for my 7.1 setup on my HTPC. Does anyone know how to create text config file for JRiver convolution for multichannel? I've looked at the convolution links provided on the JRiver wiki. The only examples that I can find are for 2 channel, not 8, and I think if I could see a multichannel example, I could figure it out.
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post #2254 of 2274 Old 08-25-2016, 03:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDontee View Post
I created 8 mono impulse response filters in wav format using REW for my 7.1 setup on my HTPC. Does anyone know how to create text config file for JRiver convolution for multichannel? I've looked at the convolution links provided on the JRiver wiki. The only examples that I can find are for 2 channel, not 8, and I think if I could see a multichannel example, I could figure it out.
there is no difference to a mono or stereo file except the no of channels and the paths (filters) you define.

one example I wrote is republished on http://digitalroomcorrection.hk/http..._Workflow.html

there are some other examples on interact

if you're stuck then write down some logical paths (like apply filter channel 1 to L input and send to output 1) and I can give you some pointers on how to write it
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post #2255 of 2274 Old 08-25-2016, 03:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
there is no difference to a mono or stereo file except the no of channels and the paths (filters) you define.

one example I wrote is republished on http://digitalroomcorrection.hk/http..._Workflow.html

there are some other examples on interact

if you're stuck then write down some logical paths (like apply filter channel 1 to L input and send to output 1) and I can give you some pointers on how to write it
I was struggling with the mapping of the channels for a 7.1 system. I think I figured it out. This is what my config file looks like now.

48000 8 8 0
0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
C:\jriver\left-filters080616.wav
0
0.0
0.0
C:\jriver\right-filters080616.wav
0
0.0
1.0
C:\jriver\Average 2-filterstry3.wav
0
0.0
2.0
C:\jriver\sub-filters080616.wav
0
0.0
3.0
C:\jriver\rear left-filtersDIRAC80to1000.wav
0
0.0
4.0
C:\jriver\rear right-filtersDIRAC80to600.wav
0
0.0
5.0
C:\jriver\side left-filtersDIRAC80to400.wav
0
0.0
6.0
C:\jriver\side right-filtersDIRAC80to500.wav
0
0.0
7.0
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post #2256 of 2274 Old 08-25-2016, 03:39 PM
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you appear to be routing your L input channel to each output via a different filter

Code:
C:\jriver\side right-filtersDIRAC80to500.wav  # filter file name
0         # filter channel so this means the 1st channel in the wav file
0.0      # input channel, 0 typically means the L channel
7.0      # output channel 8 (remember it is 0 indexed) which IIRC means SR in a 7.1 setup
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post #2257 of 2274 Old 08-25-2016, 03:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
you appear to be routing your L input channel to each output via a different filter

Code:
C:\jriver\side right-filtersDIRAC80to500.wav  # filter file name
0         # filter channel so this means the 1st channel in the wav file
0.0      # input channel, 0 typically means the L channel
7.0      # output channel 8 (remember it is 0 indexed) which IIRC means SR in a 7.1 setup
So, is this correct? ( I added some paths for the same channel)

48000 8 8 0
0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
C:\jriver\left-filters080616.wav
0
0.0
0.0
C:\jriver\right-filters080616.wav
0
1.0
1.0
C:\jriver\Average 2-filterstry3.wav
0
2.0
2.0
C:\jriver\sub-filters080616.wav
0
3.0
3.0
C:\jriver\rear left-filtersDIRAC80to1000.wav
0
4.0
4.0
C:\jriver\rear left-filtersDIRAC3000to10000.wav
0
4.0
4.0
C:\jriver\rear right-filtersDIRAC80to600.wav
0
5.0
5.0
C:\jriver\rear right-filtersDIRAC3000to16000.wav
0
5.0
5.0
C:\jriver\side left-filtersDIRAC80to400.wav
0
6.0
6.0
C:\jriver\side left-filtersDIRAC3000to20000.wav
0
6.0
6.0
C:\jriver\side right-filtersDIRAC80to500.wav
0
7.0
7.0
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post #2258 of 2274 Old 08-26-2016, 02:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDontee View Post
So, is this correct? ( I added some paths for the same channel)

48000 8 8 0
0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
C:\jriver\left-filters080616.wav
0
0.0
0.0
C:\jriver\right-filters080616.wav
0
1.0
1.0
C:\jriver\Average 2-filterstry3.wav
0
2.0
2.0
C:\jriver\sub-filters080616.wav
0
3.0
3.0
C:\jriver\rear left-filtersDIRAC80to1000.wav
0
4.0
4.0
C:\jriver\rear left-filtersDIRAC3000to10000.wav
0
4.0
4.0
C:\jriver\rear right-filtersDIRAC80to600.wav
0
5.0
5.0
C:\jriver\rear right-filtersDIRAC3000to16000.wav
0
5.0
5.0
C:\jriver\side left-filtersDIRAC80to400.wav
0
6.0
6.0
C:\jriver\side left-filtersDIRAC3000to20000.wav
0
6.0
6.0
C:\jriver\side right-filtersDIRAC80to500.wav
0
7.0
7.0
what is going on with the 2 separate filters for channels 4-6? I'm not sure whether jriver supports output channel summing, you should test this to make sure. It is also sending the same input channel to the same output channel twice, there's no scaling in the cfg file so I'd expect this to come out 6dB too loud (if jriver supports output channel summing).

The filter names suggest you're filtering a limited bandwidth in each filter, what are you actually doing in there?
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post #2259 of 2274 Old 08-26-2016, 02:38 PM
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For those channels, I did not eq the entire frequency range, only the problem areas. I was able to apply these wavs to the channel without any problems on EQAPO, and I thought I'd try the same with JRiver. It sounds fine, but I haven't had the chance to test with REW yet to see if I am getting the same results that I got with EQAPO. As for the scaling, it is not louder when used.
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post #2260 of 2274 Old 10-09-2016, 09:48 AM
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I am looking to buy the New McIntosh MB50 but I read this.

" forget about using JRiver and the MB50 together. Streaming to the MB50 will ONLY work with DTS Play-Fi's own software, running either on Windows 10, iOS or Android. And by using their software, you gain access to Tidal, Spotify etc: it's all explained on the DTS Play-Fi website."

Can someone explain if this is accurate and if the complexity of installing and using DTS Play-Fi. Will it then throw a wrench into how I steam my music to other players?

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #2261 of 2274 Old 10-09-2016, 10:48 AM
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If it adheres to DLNA standards, MC should be able to stream to it. They (McIntosh) state that "DLNA is supported". Whether they fully support it or not is another matter.
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post #2262 of 2274 Old 10-10-2016, 08:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eljr View Post
I am looking to buy the New McIntosh MB50 but I read this.

" forget about using JRiver and the MB50 together. Streaming to the MB50 will ONLY work with DTS Play-Fi's own software, ... it's all explained on the DTS Play-Fi website."
Quote:
Originally Posted by fitbrit View Post
If it adheres to DLNA standards, MC should be able to stream to it. They (McIntosh) state that "DLNA is supported". Whether they fully support it or not is another matter.
Ok - so I did bit of googling around and here is what I get from all this. In the abstract, the architecture of DTS:Play-Fi is very simple. It is really just an attempt to move the responsibility for dealing with multiple streaming protocols, file types, and services to the mobile device so that the true playback device (the MB50) does not have to deal with all that crap. My guess is that, if we looked under the hood at what the data going from the DTS:Play-Fi app to the MB50 (or whatever) looks like, it would be as simple as some metadata about the stream (sampling depth, sampling rate, channel count?) and then PCM or more-likely, compressed-PCM (compressed using a very small set of possible DTS-based algorithms).

Think about what this does for the equipment makers for a moment. It frees them from having to know ANYTHING about how to connect to and play Spotify, or Pandora, or DLNA, or Tidal, or the new "streaming service of the week" that comes out next week. They don't have to have any logic that deals with your account login. They don't have to code in the proprietary streaming protocol used. They don't have to learn how to browse and search 20 different library formats. They don't have to have any "apps" on their device, and don't have to provide a way to add them when a new service comes along. They don't have to provide ANY user interface at all. They don't have know %^&*. All they have to know is how to listen to and respond to ONE app that does things ONE way. It pushes all of the responsibility of all that other stuff to the DTS:Play-Fi player, whose job it is to deal with all of that other crap.

If you want a simple analogy - the MB50 with speakers or any other system that support DTS:Play-Fi is really just being used like a hi-rez version of a Bluetooth speaker system. That's it. Think of how you would use jRiver and a phone/tablet to play via Bluetooth. Now change the protocol and the sound quality and - presto: exact same usage model ... better sound.

So what does this mean to the current discussion?

It means that the MB50, technically, can't play any of that other stuff (DLNA, Spotify, Tidal, ...) - by itself. The MB50 only knows how to play DTS:Play-Fi media, which can only come from the DTS:Play-Fi app.

But - the DTS:Play-Fi app can and does support using a DLNA server as a music source. This is pretty clearly stated at the DTS:Play-Fi site. So in the end, yes, you can use jRiver (which is an outstandingly-compliant DLNA server) with any DTS:Play-Fi-based system including the MB50, via the DTS:Play-Fi app. In this regard, the reply you received was idiotic at best.

A caveat: your phone/tablet will need to be on and will need to have a very good wireless connection to your network, because ALL of the music will be passing through that phone/tablet and if it turns off or disconnects from the WiFi...
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post #2263 of 2274 Old 10-10-2016, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LairdWilliams View Post
Ok - so I did bit of googling around and here is what I get from all this. In the abstract, the architecture of DTS:Play-Fi is very simple. It is really just an attempt to move the responsibility for dealing with multiple streaming protocols, file types, and services to the mobile device so that the true playback device (the MB50) does not have to deal with all that crap. My guess is that, if we looked under the hood at what the data going from the DTS:Play-Fi app to the MB50 (or whatever) looks like, it would be as simple as some metadata about the stream (sampling depth, sampling rate, channel count?) and then PCM or more-likely, compressed-PCM (compressed using a very small set of possible DTS-based algorithms).

Think about what this does for the equipment makers for a moment. It frees them from having to know ANYTHING about how to connect to and play Spotify, or Pandora, or DLNA, or Tidal, or the new "streaming service of the week" that comes out next week. They don't have to have any logic that deals with your account login. They don't have to code in the proprietary streaming protocol used. They don't have to learn how to browse and search 20 different library formats. They don't have to have any "apps" on their device, and don't have to provide a way to add them when a new service comes along. They don't have to provide ANY user interface at all. They don't have know %^&*. All they have to know is how to listen to and respond to ONE app that does things ONE way. It pushes all of the responsibility of all that other stuff to the DTS:Play-Fi player, whose job it is to deal with all of that other crap.

If you want a simple analogy - the MB50 with speakers or any other system that support DTS:Play-Fi is really just being used like a hi-rez version of a Bluetooth speaker system. That's it. Think of how you would use jRiver and a phone/tablet to play via Bluetooth. Now change the protocol and the sound quality and - presto: exact same usage model ... better sound.

So what does this mean to the current discussion?

It means that the MB50, technically, can't play any of that other stuff (DLNA, Spotify, Tidal, ...) - by itself. The MB50 only knows how to play DTS:Play-Fi media, which can only come from the DTS:Play-Fi app.

But - the DTS:Play-Fi app can and does support using a DLNA server as a music source. This is pretty clearly stated at the DTS:Play-Fi site. So in the end, yes, you can use jRiver (which is an outstandingly-compliant DLNA server) with any DTS:Play-Fi-based system including the MB50, via the DTS:Play-Fi app. In this regard, the reply you received was idiotic at best.

A caveat: your phone/tablet will need to be on and will need to have a very good wireless connection to your network, because ALL of the music will be passing through that phone/tablet and if it turns off or disconnects from the WiFi...
great explanation, truly appreciated.

I am surprised to learn that the music passes through the phone/tablet however.

I though it would simple act as a command center. Hey network, send this there now.

With hi res and all, can a phone/tablet handle it?

Also, what then is the point of hard wiring, as I have done, with my music server (JRiver on dedicated laptop) to the router to the players? (LAN)

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #2264 of 2274 Old 10-10-2016, 06:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eljr View Post
great explanation, truly appreciated.

I am surprised to learn that the music passes through the phone/tablet however.

I though it would simple act as a command center. Hey network, send this there now.

With hi res and all, can a phone/tablet handle it?

Also, what then is the point of hard wiring, as I have done, with my music server (JRiver on dedicated laptop) to the router to the players? (LAN)
I'm pretty sure that with DLNA and your phone (acting as a controller) for JRiver (acting as a server) and playing to the McIntosh unit (acting as a renderer), the audio is NOT channeling through the phone. That would be the case for Airplay though, I believe.
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post #2265 of 2274 Old 10-10-2016, 06:50 PM
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If the device you're playing to can play DTS content, then you just need to set Media Center's DLNA server to do no conversion.

Jim Hillegass / JRiver Media Center
jriver.com or Owners Thread at AVSForum
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post #2266 of 2274 Old 10-11-2016, 06:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fitbrit View Post
I'm pretty sure that with DLNA and your phone (acting as a controller) for JRiver (acting as a server) and playing to the McIntosh unit (acting as a renderer), the audio is NOT channeling through the phone. That would be the case for Airplay though, I believe.
This conversation - unfortunately - is NOT about DLNA in general.

The problem is that the my reading of the McIntosh MB50 unit in question is that it is not a DLNA Renderer. In fact, it does not directly support DLNA and is unlikely to have a lick of DLNA code in it. It only supports DLNA indirectly via "DTS:Play-Fi". (I would love to be wrong about this.). And for DTS:Play-Fi, all audio traffic goes through the Play-Fi app and then is sent from the Play-Fi app to the unit, for the reasons I expounded upon in detail in my earlier post. Again, with Play-FI, DLNA is just another streaming service. Play-Fi does not support the full DLNA role-set. It can talk to a DLNA server to get audio files in a manner analogous to talking to a streaming service to get audio files. That's it. In DLNA parlance, the Play-Fi app is a DLNA "player". It can use a DLNA server to find/browse and retrieve audio files. It then "plays" them by sending them to speakersand receivers using DTS:Play-Fi-specific signaling and formatting, NOT the DLNA spec. But it is the Play-Fi app that is unpacking the file and decoding the stream and then sending the bits down the line. And yes, portable devices nowadays have plenty of horsepower to handle this task.

Now - it certainly would not be inconceivable (it might even be pretty neat) for jRiver to add a Play-Fi capability to their player...but I am not holding my breath just yet on that one.
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post #2267 of 2274 Old 10-12-2016, 12:23 AM
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Well, all that would explain why it seemed to me that you were lumping in DLNA with Spotify etc. That's because you WERE lumping it in with Spotify etc. And it was because you believe it's what the player does, rather than because you have no clue how DLNA works. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

I am dismayed that the McIntosh cannot do basic DLNA though.
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post #2268 of 2274 Old 10-12-2016, 12:26 AM
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Hmmm... according to one German site, the unit is a DLNA certified UPnP device, so that bodes well.
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post #2269 of 2274 Old 10-12-2016, 05:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fitbrit View Post
Well, all that would explain why it seemed to me that you were lumping in DLNA with Spotify etc. That's because you WERE lumping it in with Spotify etc. And it was because you believe it's what the player does, rather than because you have no clue how DLNA works. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
No offense taken. But to be clear - I am probably one of only a handful of people here who have written DLNA code.

Quote:
I am dismayed that the McIntosh cannot do basic DLNA though.
I am not absolutely certain about this yet - it is just from reading the marketing lit on both the player and the DTS:Play-Fi consortium sites.

And it WOULD make sense to some degree. If you ARE a renderer or player, then it is YOUR problem to know a ton of file formats and codecs and all kinds of other crappy details. Supporting only a very limited set of these forces a DLNA server to do transcoding, which is usually bad when the server is often installed on a computationally-brain-damaged NAS or a PC that is being shared around the home. But PlayFi effectively distributes the transcoding problem. I think that is basically what the Play-Fi app is in part - a transcoder. "Take this music source (DLNA server, streaming service, locally-stored file, ...) and convert it to 'Play-Fi Format/Protocol', then send it to the playback device." Again - think of all the problems this solves for device manufacturers like McIntosh. If I were them, I would SERIOUSLY consider this step, even if the result is not for everyone. And Play-Fi could easily ride on components of UPnP - especially SSDP.
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post #2270 of 2274 Old 10-12-2016, 06:46 AM
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No offense taken. But to be clear - I am probably one of only a handful of people here who have written DLNA code.



I am not absolutely certain about this yet - it is just from reading the marketing lit on both the player and the DTS:Play-Fi consortium sites.

And it WOULD make sense to some degree. If you ARE a renderer or player, then it is YOUR problem to know a ton of file formats and codecs and all kinds of other crappy details. Supporting only a very limited set of these forces a DLNA server to do transcoding, which is usually bad when the server is often installed on a computationally-brain-damaged NAS or a PC that is being shared around the home. But PlayFi effectively distributes the transcoding problem. I think that is basically what the Play-Fi app is in part - a transcoder. "Take this music source (DLNA server, streaming service, locally-stored file, ...) and convert it to 'Play-Fi Format/Protocol', then send it to the playback device." Again - think of all the problems this solves for device manufacturers like McIntosh. If I were them, I would SERIOUSLY consider this step, even if the result is not for everyone. And Play-Fi could easily ride on components of UPnP - especially SSDP.
So... another possible approach is to use a dedicated laptop as a source via USAB to the McIntosh MB50.

The laptop would have access to JRiver and the Tidal app. (all I am concerned with)

Thereby having no need of Play-Fi. Correct?

but then, why would I or anyone need it?

So, suppose I put Play-Fi on a pad that stays in the music room.... just thinking out loud.

The same one I use to control the OPPO on the other side of the room.

Here is the real issue. I have a simple McIntosh system that is comprised of a McIntosh SACD player which has preamp capability for itself which goes to two McIntosh power amps.

I want access to both Tidal and JRiver for this system. Right now I have to use other systems to access these things.

Suggestions?

Obviously I'd like to keep it all McIntosh for the look but I have no desire to spend much. $2 grand I can live with. That is why I am considering this unit.

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.

Last edited by eljr; 10-12-2016 at 07:28 AM.
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post #2271 of 2274 Old 10-21-2016, 06:54 AM
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In the last week or so I've updated to Windows 10. In that, I reinstalled JRiver v22. Since that point it seems I can't play Dolby True HD clips without stuttering. Dolby clips work fine. It's just Dolby True HD clips. The audio is smooth, but the video stutters. (almost looks like it's loading, jumpy, stuttering, dropping frames.)

Any ideas? Something is off with a codec I guess.
Be sure to go intro your anti-virus settings and "exclude" the program from checking those files. I exclude the drives where my media files are stored and the JRiver program from anti-virus scans. An anti-virus program scanning real-time will/can become very noticeable on weaker computers.
Plus Win10 is continuously pushing updates so your anti-virus may work unnoticed one day then all of a sudden playback is no longer smooth.


There is a guide at JRiver to help "tame" your anti-virus. http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Tro...urity_Software
and http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Tam...ndows_Defender

Last edited by CountryBumkin; 10-25-2016 at 05:55 AM.
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post #2272 of 2274 Old 11-12-2016, 07:56 AM
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Hi .. just wondering if anyone would have any suggestions for an issue I ran into last night ..

I was playing a movie with an Atmos soundtrack with JRiver set to Bitstream (which worked in the past), through a new Projector recently purchased .. the Epson 6040UB. THis upscales to 4K(faux-k I know, but still rather good).

Problem is that when my PC's resolution is set to 3840 × 2160, Jriver tries to open the file and then returns to the JRiver console with an error reporting there is an issue with the Audio Setup.

Reducing the resolution to 1080P, and the movie plays fine .. with the Atmos Soundtrack in check.

PC is running 16GB Ram with MSI GTX1070

Any suggestions welcome ..

Cheers,

n
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post #2273 of 2274 Old 11-12-2016, 01:13 PM
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Hi .. just wondering if anyone would have any suggestions for an issue I ran into last night ..

I was playing a movie with an Atmos soundtrack with JRiver set to Bitstream (which worked in the past), through a new Projector recently purchased .. the Epson 6040UB. THis upscales to 4K(faux-k I know, but still rather good).

Problem is that when my PC's resolution is set to 3840 × 2160, Jriver tries to open the file and then returns to the JRiver console with an error reporting there is an issue with the Audio Setup.

Reducing the resolution to 1080P, and the movie plays fine .. with the Atmos Soundtrack in check.

PC is running 16GB Ram with MSI GTX1070

Any suggestions welcome ..

Cheers,

n
Are you trying to play a 4k file?

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post #2274 of 2274 Old 11-14-2016, 05:09 AM
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Are you trying to play a 4k file?
H .. in reply to your question .. it's a 1080P file with a 7.1 Atmos sountrack. The projector upscales to Faux-K I suppose. So when the PC starts with the projector on, it sets the resolution to 3160 and I just try and play via JRiver then.

Rebooting my system last night and it seems to have done the trick .. must have been a handshaking issue perhaps ..

Sorry .. I should have updated this thread earlier ..
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