Advanced MPC-HC Setup Guide - Page 6 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 8Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #151 of 3082 Old 09-05-2011, 09:22 PM
AVS Special Member
 
gtgray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,373
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

The more I read the more I am convinced that this is extremely important. Maybe the most important.

As an aside I tried ATI 5450, NVidia 430 and Intel iGPU and the Intel drivers were by far (and I mean by far) the best, most stable and most reliable drivers out of the bunch for my particular setup.

I still use the 430 in my testing rig. The 5450 and my old HTPC was given to a new home.

I just spent some time in front of the set. I normally don't run LAV CUVID for Live TV in WMC because I have had some weird video blink outs during commercials on CNNHD. I know some of this stuff is vodooo. That is why I was running PowerDVD 10 as my preferred video decoder in WMC, which is for me a dedicated Digital Cable TV and part time ATSC platform/PVR or both and not much else.

Anyway, just for grins I switched back to LAV CUVID in WMC and there were clear lip sync issue which I don't see outside of WMC... Did not see them with the GT 545. Windows Media Center really is weird when it comes to audio and live TV.... So Cyberlink is good in WMC on this rig... LAV CUVID is a WMC Live TV fail.

I use LAV CUVID and LAV Audio with madVR in MPC HC and in JR River. I only run MPC-HC as a quick test platform.

There is no simple on way is best recipe, that is for sure. My display is 82", I am sure the giant home projector setups really show the flaws.

Just another blank signature.
gtgray is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #152 of 3082 Old 09-05-2011, 09:49 PM
AVS Special Member
 
pokekevin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Huntington Beach, CA
Posts: 5,062
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 101
ahh ok my bad. Ill try to get screens comparing renders with the same filters

Could someone explain the difference between a renderer and a decoder? Im not understanding the articles about the two

-Kevin

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
pokekevin is offline  
post #153 of 3082 Old 09-06-2011, 01:58 AM
Senior Member
 
Tony_Montana's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 380
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:


There are three main types of filters:
  • Source filters: These provide the source streams of data. For example, reading raw bytes from any media file.
  • Transform filters: These transform data that is provided from other filter's output. For example, doing a transform such as adding text on top of video or uncompressing an MPEG frame.
  • Renderer filters: These render the data. For example, sending audio to the sound card, drawing video on the screen or writing data to a file.

wiki: DirectShow

ffdshow ,lav video, core AVC, ArcSOft Video DEcoder are Transform filters.
MAdVR, EVR are renderer filters.

you need both of them for video playback.
you can compare video decoders with video decoders .
you cannot compare video decoders with video renderers.
Tony_Montana is offline  
post #154 of 3082 Old 09-06-2011, 02:19 AM
AVS Special Member
 
pokekevin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Huntington Beach, CA
Posts: 5,062
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony_Montana View Post

wiki: DirectShow

ffdshow ,lav video, core AVC, ArcSOft Video DEcoder are Transform filters.
MAdVR, EVR are renderer filters.

you need both of them for video playback.
you can compare video decoders with video decoders .
you cannot compare video decoders with video renderers.

ahh ok that makes much more sense. I was using VMR 9 renderless w/ffdshow filters before using madvr

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
pokekevin is offline  
post #155 of 3082 Old 09-06-2011, 02:39 AM
Qaq
Senior Member
 
Qaq's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 459
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
About screenshots comparassions.
How do we know picture looks exactly the same for us from video renderer and from image viewer?

Burned by the Audio Inquisition
Qaq is offline  
post #156 of 3082 Old 09-06-2011, 02:43 AM
Senior Member
 
Tony_Montana's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 380
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 15
about this whole madvr vs others comparissons
i want to say only one thing.
If you cannot take measurements (actually no reason to do that)
Just Trust your Eyes.

I will also ask all the madvr experts how many LCD/plasma support the 4:4:4Full rgb ,the pc levels: 0-255 , and 8bit or higher conversion.

Can you give me some lg and panasonic (2011 models) examples , plz?
Tony_Montana is offline  
post #157 of 3082 Old 09-06-2011, 03:54 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
assassin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 12,894
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 205
Eyes can be tricked.

The placebo effect is very real. If there is truly a difference you should see it in the screenshots. Even the Madvr creator uses zoomed in screenshots as his "proof" over at doom9.
assassin is offline  
post #158 of 3082 Old 09-06-2011, 04:37 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
MlNDBOMB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 845
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 48
http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/6853/evr.png
http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/7114/madvr.png

Here are some screenshots I just quickly took. you should be able to see smoother gradients on the forehead with madvr, and i believe that is from the 16 bit processing with dithering vs the 8 bit processing with rounding.
MlNDBOMB is offline  
post #159 of 3082 Old 09-06-2011, 05:16 AM
Senior Member
 
khollister's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 283
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

Eyes can be tricked.

The placebo effect is very real. If there is truly a difference you should see it in the screenshots. Even the Madvr creator uses zoomed in screenshots as his "proof" over at doom9.

While I agree that screen grabs should show differences in "static" IQ such as color space decoding, resolution, contrast, etc, much of the difference I see attributed to various renderers is motion-related. This will not be detectable from isolated screen grabs of single frames.

The part that puzzles me is why a render engine would even affect the "smoothness" of motion (a description I often see applied to madVR) outside of any framerate translation done in the renderer. If a 23.976 fps video is rendered and sent to a 23.976 fps display, I fail to see where apparent motion can be affected since the integrity of the frames should be unchanged. All the render engine should affect is static IQ, which should be visible in screenshots. In the cases where madVR is handling framerate conversions, then all bets are off.

I would expect there to be 4 main factors that influence the perceived video quality - the decoding of whatever codec is used (MPEG 4, VC-1, etc), any framerate translation performed (e.g. 3-2 pulldown), deinterlacing of 480i or 1080i material, and the rendering of the uncompressed frames into raster images to be played back by whatever playback software is used. This of course assumes the playback software is error free, which may not be the case (framerate synchronization or colorspace management being the normal suspects). Two of these are not in play for the playback of progressive material at its native framerate.

BTW, examination of the comparative screenshots reposted in this thread yields extremely subtle differences to my eye, so small as to be insignificant at any real-world viewing difference.

I should add that I am a newbie at HTPC (and Microsoft's Directshow architecture), but experienced in imaging software on other platforms, so I am trying to get a handle on this not from empirical experience with this particular software, but from a more abstract, architectural perspective.

What am I missing here?
khollister is offline  
post #160 of 3082 Old 09-06-2011, 05:26 AM
Senior Member
 
khollister's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 283
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by MlNDBOMB View Post

http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/6853/evr.png
http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/7114/madvr.png

Here are some screenshots I just quickly took. you should be able to see smoother gradients on the forehead with madvr, and i believe that is from the 16 bit processing with dithering vs the 8 bit processing with rounding.

Very, very subtle. I would not expect this sort of difference to be visible in video at normal viewing distances. Not to say the madVR image isn't better than EVR as far as the gradients go, but looking at the eyes, the EVR version appears ever so slightly sharper to me.

This is consistent with what I see in the highly magnified samples on the madVR site - smoother gradients at the expense of perceived micro-contrast or sharpness. Again, the madVR version may be more accurate, but given the realities of normal TV viewing, I'm not sure the EVR version wouldn't be seen as "better" since the eye is more likely to pick up on the sharpness than the being able to resolve the gradient differences.
khollister is offline  
post #161 of 3082 Old 09-06-2011, 06:34 AM
Qaq
Senior Member
 
Qaq's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 459
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by MlNDBOMB View Post

i believe that is from the 16 bit processing with dithering vs the 8 bit processing with rounding.

Sorry, but this is incorrect comparison. EVR CP is able to process image in 32fp, HQ chroma sub-sampling and selectable level of dithering. MPC-HC tester builds for internal renderer fixes by Jan Willem.

Burned by the Audio Inquisition
Qaq is offline  
post #162 of 3082 Old 09-06-2011, 06:40 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
MlNDBOMB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 845
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 48
im aware of those builds, but I believe ppl are more interested in just a comparison to the default evr cp that most ppl use if they aren't using madvr.

anyway, there should be no difference in chroma, i have madvr set to bilinear for chroma, and evr should be doing bilinear as well.

I'm also wondering about how vlc's renderer performs, as that is another popular player.
MlNDBOMB is offline  
post #163 of 3082 Old 09-06-2011, 07:05 AM
Qaq
Senior Member
 
Qaq's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 459
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
My point is that even with HQ convertions by EVR CP I prefer madVR's picture anyway. Thats too bad actually cause I can't use madVR for 1080i videos (I'm an ATI user). Honestly, I hope Jan Willem will bring same quality to EVR CP some day.

Burned by the Audio Inquisition
Qaq is offline  
post #164 of 3082 Old 09-06-2011, 07:14 AM
AVS Special Member
 
FantaXP7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 1,029
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 18
Thanks for this guide. I can't wait to go home and test this out.

I have sharkcodec installed now. Should I un-install all codecs and start with the links on the first page?

Also I want to use this with media center and mediabrowser. I know that charkcodec has options for lavcuvid and lav audio, but I never figured out how to incorporated madvr even after following basic guides. Anyways, with this will it work easily with mediacenter?

Thanks
FantaXP7 is online now  
post #165 of 3082 Old 09-06-2011, 07:16 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
MlNDBOMB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 845
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 48
@ Qaq
well, you can get decent deinterlacing quality with yadif with frame doubling.

im guessing you much rather prefer the motion adaptive ati deinterlacing though.

@FantaXP7
i dont think you have to uninstall sharks codecs.

You should be able to select mpc hc as an external player for mediabrowser from what i understand.
MlNDBOMB is offline  
post #166 of 3082 Old 09-06-2011, 07:35 AM
Qaq
Senior Member
 
Qaq's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 459
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by MlNDBOMB View Post

@ Qaq
well, you can get decent deinterlacing quality with yadif with frame doubling.
im guessing you much rather prefer the motion adaptive ati deinterlacing though.

Vector Adaptive to be exact. Those 1080i have huge bitrate, so yes - I only care about GPU processing here. This is only possible with EVR/VMR for ATI users now.

Burned by the Audio Inquisition
Qaq is offline  
post #167 of 3082 Old 09-06-2011, 07:41 AM
AVS Special Member
 
FantaXP7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 1,029
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by MlNDBOMB View Post

@ Qaq
well, you can get decent deinterlacing quality with yadif with frame doubling.

im guessing you much rather prefer the motion adaptive ati deinterlacing though.

@FantaXP7
i dont think you have to uninstall sharks codecs.

You should be able to select mpc hc as an external player for mediabrowser from what i understand.

Yea you can and I have tried this in the past, but with shark it apparently doesn't launch as external which I think is preferable. When I set it up to launch mpc externally I lost some convenience features like the resume button in mediabrowser and the fast forwarding (which could be a simple fix).

I guess I just like the idea of having it work internally instead of launching externally.
FantaXP7 is online now  
post #168 of 3082 Old 09-06-2011, 09:04 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
assassin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 12,894
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 205
For those that are testing please post comparison pictures and I will photoshop them side by side at 100% and 50%.
assassin is offline  
post #169 of 3082 Old 09-06-2011, 10:20 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Postmoderndesign's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,074
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 28
For those with an older motherboard and CPU a Nvidia 440 with 1GB GDDR5 and using LAV CUVID may be the best route to improving video.

I have a Gigabyte EP45-UD3P motherboard and a core duo E7400 processor. I3, I5, I7 plus Sandybridge may provide a wonderful picture. But installing an $80 Nvidia 440 is a much less expensive and time consuming option compared to a new motherboard and processor.

Once the Nvidia 440 is installed it is my understanding that CUVID uses the NVidia card for graphics processing. And that resolves my older CPU's limitations. My impression is that MadVR, the LAV Splitter, LAV audio and LAV CUVID work well together. However, I would not discourage anyone from experimenting with EVR and ffdshow video deinterlacing.

Finally on the issue of smoothness and the issue of comparing individual frames. Smoothness to me means a film like motion quality where I do not see the pixel dots of video. My eyes prefer the film like look.

However, I would only share my experience with my equipment including graphics cards and the renderer and filters I have tried so far.

However, I do believe an advanced MPC-HC guide should recommend that LAV CUVID be tried for those with a Nvidia graphic card capable of taking advantage of thc card.
Postmoderndesign is offline  
post #170 of 3082 Old 09-06-2011, 12:13 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
assassin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 12,894
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 205
Quote:
Originally Posted by MlNDBOMB View Post

http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/6853/evr.png
http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/7114/madvr.png

Here are some screenshots I just quickly took. you should be able to see smoother gradients on the forehead with madvr, and i believe that is from the 16 bit processing with dithering vs the 8 bit processing with rounding.

EVR Left, Madvr right



50%

assassin is offline  
post #171 of 3082 Old 09-06-2011, 02:41 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
Davinleeds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,410
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Right is more unfocused/blurry to me.

"The purpose of diplomacy is to prolong a crisis." Spock, Mark of Gideon, TOS
Davinleeds is offline  
post #172 of 3082 Old 09-06-2011, 03:44 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
MlNDBOMB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 845
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 48
i was using a sharp bicubic resizer (bicubic A=-1.00) for evr, but i was using mitchell netravali for madvr.

That might explain that.
MlNDBOMB is offline  
post #173 of 3082 Old 09-06-2011, 03:44 PM
Senior Member
 
Tony_Montana's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 380
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Qaq View Post

Vector Adaptive to be exact. Those 1080i have huge bitrate, so yes - I only care about GPU processing here. This is only possible with EVR/VMR for ATI users now.

so more info`s about this plz?

& this????


Quote:
Originally Posted by Qaq View Post

Sorry, but this is incorrect comparison. EVR CP is able to process image in 32fp, HQ chroma sub-sampling and selectable level of dithering. MPC-HC tester builds for internal renderer fixes by Jan Willem.

Tony_Montana is offline  
post #174 of 3082 Old 09-06-2011, 04:20 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
MlNDBOMB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 845
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 48
I really wouldn't worry about it too much unless you regularly play interlaced videos and don't have an nvidia card to use lav cuvid.
MlNDBOMB is offline  
post #175 of 3082 Old 09-06-2011, 04:38 PM
Senior Member
 
Tony_Montana's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 380
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by MlNDBOMB View Post

I really wouldn't worry about it too much unless you regularly play interlaced videos and don't have an nvidia card to use lav cuvid.

i use ATI & intel and i have interlaced material
Tony_Montana is offline  
post #176 of 3082 Old 09-06-2011, 05:32 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
MlNDBOMB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 845
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 48
if you do watch alot interlaced videos, you might wanna try this -
grab jan willem's custom mpc hc builds
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=161047
change renderer to evr cp. Also, select a good resizer, like catmull rom spline 6. go to view, renderer settings, reset, and select reset to optimal settings.

It won't look as good as madvr for progressive, but it might have the edge on madvr for interlaced if you have a good hardware deinterlacer. If you had an nvidia card, you would get the best of both worlds with lav cuvid.

To me, it just doesn't seem that interesting considering I watch far more progressive than interlaced videos.
MlNDBOMB is offline  
post #177 of 3082 Old 09-07-2011, 04:36 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
MlNDBOMB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 845
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 48
I updated the op with some mention of other popular decoders (coreavc, lav cuvid).
MlNDBOMB is offline  
post #178 of 3082 Old 09-07-2011, 04:39 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
assassin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 12,894
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 205
assassin is offline  
post #179 of 3082 Old 09-07-2011, 05:19 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
MlNDBOMB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 845
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 48
coreavc provides no quality improvements over lav video, it is strictly for increased performance, which in turn should mean lower cpu usage.
Lav cuvid provides no quality improvements over lav video for progressive videos, but massively lowers cpu usage and increases deinterlacing quality. The latter should be clear to see in the cheese slice test.
MlNDBOMB is offline  
post #180 of 3082 Old 09-07-2011, 05:34 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
assassin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 12,894
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 205
So are the above screenshots as much difference in quality as we are going to see?

I am a little disappointed to be honest. There is just so much hype around Madvr I was hoping that I had it setup wrong and the difference was much greater.

Is still stand by my stance.

LAV+WMC is about 95% of perfect.
LAV+MPC-HC is about 95-97% of perfect.

To my eyes MPC-HC+Madvr is also about 97% perfect. No real gain on my system but obviously others are noticing a subjective improvement.

I think this is extremely YMMV.
assassin is offline  
Reply Home Theater Computers

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off