Advanced MPC-HC Setup Guide - Page 94 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 21Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #2791 of 3264 Old 03-04-2014, 10:52 AM
Advanced Member
 
mightyhuhn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 746
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 329 Post(s)
Liked: 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by scott750 View Post

Is it still true that MadVR will only work with the 32bit version of MPC-HC? Or have they gotten it to work with the 64 bit yet?


madvr need 32 bit.

this is not a real issue you are limited to 4gb ram for playback. but more codecs are supported in 32 bit and it's not slower! is works on every non itanium windows system too. (itanium are 64 bit only intel cpu they are discontinued a long time ago...)

mightyhuhn is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2792 of 3264 Old 03-04-2014, 06:32 PM
Newbie
 
FeliChe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 2
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10

Hi,

 

thank you both for answering

 

I took image doubling off and heat decrease a lot, around 20ºC so either I´m doing something wrong or my card doesn´t play well with this feature I needed to take it off.

 

After solve this problem I tried to playback smoothly but without sucsess.

 

I reduced from higest level to high one scaling methods.

 

Drop and delet frames are establish, don´t get high numbers so I think isn´t judder.

 

I up the use of my memory card and cpu few more points.

 

Any special window mode to use neither smooth visión enable.

 

It´s happening in MPC HC and the same in JRiver.

 

Sofware is under W8.1 and using MPC HC 32 bits.

 

I´ve a HD Ready TV with this possible frecuencies:

 

720p50 720p60

1080p24, 1080p50 and 1080p60

 

When playing 720 30 fps changes to 720p60 and plays smoothly.

When playing 1080 23.976 fps changes to 1080p24 and plays smoothly.

 

When playing 1080 30 fps changes to 1080p24 (I dónt know the reason changes to 1080p24 and not to 1080p60) and is having serious playback smooth problems with drop and delet frames.

 

I set up all the frecuencies in MadVR to allowthe software to make the refresh frames.

 

Here the biggest problem playing 720 video at 23.976, MadVR does the refresh perfectly to 24 and then not drop and delete frames but in the backwards of the scene you can observate an horrible small jumpings, I imagene name is stutter. When the camara focus on first line, like faces, bodys is more dificult to apreciate but looking to back scene on motions from one side to anther, like when camara turns on circule around a couple dancing, or the move of a car, etc., then is horrible small jumpings. Also there are few stop and contine like judder.

 

Happen either ine MPC HC and JRiver.

 

If somebody would like to suggest me any change I´m all eyes to read ;)

 

Thank you

FeliChe is offline  
post #2793 of 3264 Old 03-05-2014, 04:46 AM
Advanced Member
 
mightyhuhn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 746
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 329 Post(s)
Liked: 125

you should only use the native resolution of your display. so only 1080p modes madvr will upscale 720p to 1080p way better.

 

Quote:
I took image doubling off and heat decrease a lot, around 20ºC so either I´m doing something wrong or my card doesn´t play well with this feature I needed to take it off.

your gpu should never over heat under any conditions! this means your pc is not cooled in the right way!
 

Quote:

Here the biggest problem playing 720 video at 23.976, MadVR does the refresh perfectly to 24 and then not drop and delete frames but in the backwards of the scene you can observate an horrible small jumpings,

I imagene name is stutter. When the camara focus on first line, like faces, bodys is more dificult to apreciate but looking to back scene on motions from one side to anther, like when camara turns on circule around a couple dancing, or the move of a car, etc., then is horrible small jumpings. Also there are few stop and contine like judder.

maybe a problem with our display device try 1080p60 with smoothmotion

mightyhuhn is online now  
post #2794 of 3264 Old 03-05-2014, 12:56 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
MlNDBOMB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 848
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 49
1080p24 is close enough where there is no big issues playing 23.976 fps material, it should look a lot better than 1080p60 for example. Furthermore, you can use reclock or videoclock to just speed up the video to 24 fps. But yea, mightyhuhn is exactly right. Only use native resolutions, and try smooth motion at 60hz rather than refresh rate matching. This might be a windows 8 specific bug with madvr and refresh rates. You can also improve image doubling performance by lowering the amount of neurons to 32. Or try 64 with lanczos rather than with jinc.
MlNDBOMB is offline  
post #2795 of 3264 Old 03-05-2014, 09:51 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Postmoderndesign's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,123
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 37 Post(s)
Liked: 34
madvr 87.5 has been posted. It has a bug report when things stop working.
Postmoderndesign is offline  
post #2796 of 3264 Old 03-06-2014, 01:24 PM
Member
 
adinis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 113
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by adinis View Post

This is probably a silly question , but do i enable MPC-HC in XBMC as the default player? I found this link http://wiki.xbmc.org/index.php?title=External_players but i am not sure it its accurate. Thank you in advance

ps. i have also tried http://forum.xbmc.org/showthread.php?tid=172361, i made the .xml file using notepad, run as admin, and save the file in the XBMC\userdata but i dont notice any difference when i launch xbmc and don't if i did it correcty

I am sorry but does anyone know how to check if MPC-HC is set up as default player, or the easiest way to set it up? Thanks and I am sorry for being such a pest
adinis is online now  
post #2797 of 3264 Old 03-06-2014, 03:14 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Postmoderndesign's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,123
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 37 Post(s)
Liked: 34
today madvr 87.6
Postmoderndesign is offline  
post #2798 of 3264 Old 03-06-2014, 04:48 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Sammy2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Right next to Wineville, CA
Posts: 9,850
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 124 Post(s)
Liked: 192
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1672206#post1672206

If you go back a few pages you'll see 87.5 change log has a lot of fixes too.

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=3ce6e12fc1b7c02b679b2a398ff10db3&p=1672032#post1672032

Time to upgrade MadVR it would seem. Thanks for the head's up!

Sammy2 is offline  
post #2799 of 3264 Old 03-07-2014, 08:08 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Sammy2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Right next to Wineville, CA
Posts: 9,850
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 124 Post(s)
Liked: 192
Apparently there are a bunch of new settigs in MadVR now. Anyone played with it yet?

Sammy2 is offline  
post #2800 of 3264 Old 03-07-2014, 09:38 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Postmoderndesign's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,123
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 37 Post(s)
Liked: 34
Sammy2: Go here: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1663611#post1663611 and work your way forward. Also look at the thread**** So, you've built your ultimate HTPC-NOW WHAT IS NEXT??? How to get the ultimate picture and sound.
Postmoderndesign is offline  
post #2801 of 3264 Old 03-07-2014, 10:05 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Sammy2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Right next to Wineville, CA
Posts: 9,850
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 124 Post(s)
Liked: 192
Cool. Thanks. I missed the 87.4 update actually when these new algorithms were added in. I'll need to do some research but it would seem that some of @renethx's prior "Levels" will be outdated now. Maybe a Level 6 and Level 7 need to be added?

I'm thinking my current Radeon HD 7850 should be up to speed for this.

Sammy2 is offline  
post #2802 of 3264 Old 03-07-2014, 10:43 AM
Advanced Member
 
mightyhuhn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 746
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 329 Post(s)
Liked: 125

maxing out madvr settings is with the current gpu on the market impossible.

 

nnedi3 chroma upscale with 256 neurons is most likely the best chroma upscale out there but is is so demanding no card should be able to this at 256 neurons.and neurons are not like tabs where jinc 8 tab is very slow and just "bad", more neurons are always better.

mightyhuhn is online now  
post #2803 of 3264 Old 03-07-2014, 10:49 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Sammy2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Right next to Wineville, CA
Posts: 9,850
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 124 Post(s)
Liked: 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post

maxing out madvr settings is with the current gpu on the market impossible.

Can you more clearly state what it is that you mean? What is the current GPU on the market? Is it impossible to max out MadVR with it or with mine?
Quote:
Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post

nnedi3 chroma upscale with 256 neurons is most likely the best chroma upscale out there but is is so demanding no card should be able to this at 256 neurons.and neurons are not like tabs where jinc 8 tab is very slow and just "bad", more neurons are always better.

So no current card can handle the highest settings of MadVR?

Most all of my content is 1080p x 23.976fps so I don't think I'm doing much up-scaling at all but for some of my DVD content at 480p..

Sammy2 is offline  
post #2804 of 3264 Old 03-07-2014, 11:02 AM
Advanced Member
 
mightyhuhn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 746
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 329 Post(s)
Liked: 125

i have a r9 270 this is a 7870 in basic.

 

i can barely do chroma nnedi 64 neurons with a 1080p23 source.

this is only chroma not that important but it shows how hard it is 256 would be better but how?

i can use nnedi3 128 for luma doubling on a 480p23 source and the rest of the resizer are all spline 3 ar maybe i can do this with jinc 3 ar for the rest but not sure but i can't use nnedi3 for chroma doubling or chroma resizing at the same time. maybe 16 neuron X-).

mightyhuhn is online now  
post #2805 of 3264 Old 03-07-2014, 11:07 AM
Advanced Member
 
fairchild99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 892
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 149
On my 7870 OC (basically a 7870 which runs @ 1050/1250mhz) I run the following madvr settings which go into my calibrated 55VT60 plasma:
Quote:
calibration: this display is already calibrated: BT.709 and pure power curve 2.20
disable GPU gamma ramps

enable delay playback start until render queue is full
enable delay playback start after seeking, too

disable ALL trade quality for performance options
using ordered dithering, disable 2 options (colored and dynamic)
**disable dithering (only when checking/calibrating brightness setting)**

display modes: 1080p60,1080p50,1080p24,1080p23

chroma upscaling: lanczos 3 (AR), image upscaling: lanczos 3 (AR)
image doubling: use NNEDI3 to double luma if scaling 2.0x 32 neurons
use NNEDI3 to quadruple luma if scaling 3.0x 16 neurons
image downscaling: camtull-rom (AR+LL)

Sony 32" EX400 calibrated settings
Panasonic 50" S60 calibrated settings
HTPC/Sony S5100 to Sony HT-CT660 to Panasonic 55" VT60, Sony 32" EX400, Panasonic 50" S60
fairchild99 is offline  
post #2806 of 3264 Old 03-07-2014, 11:08 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Sammy2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Right next to Wineville, CA
Posts: 9,850
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 124 Post(s)
Liked: 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post

i have a r9 270 this is a 7870 in basic.

i can barely do chroma nnedi 64 neurons with a 1080p23 source.
this is only chroma not that important but it shows how hard it is 256 would be better but how?
i can use nnedi3 128 for luma doubling on a 480p23 source and the rest of the resizer are all spline 3 ar maybe i can do this with jinc 3 ar for the rest but not sure but i can't use nnedi3 for chroma doubling or chroma resizing at the same time. maybe 16 neuron X-).

You mean that they are similar? I'm not understanding what "in basic" means.

Sammy2 is offline  
post #2807 of 3264 Old 03-07-2014, 11:09 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Sammy2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Right next to Wineville, CA
Posts: 9,850
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 124 Post(s)
Liked: 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by fairchild99 View Post

On my 7870 OC (basically a 7870 which runs @ 1050/1250mhz) I run the following madvr settings which go into my calibrated 55VT60 plasma:
Quote:
calibration: this display is already calibrated: BT.709 and pure power curve 2.20
disable GPU gamma ramps

enable delay playback start until render queue is full
enable delay playback start after seeking, too

disable ALL trade quality for performance options
using ordered dithering, disable 2 options (colored and dynamic)
**disable dithering (only when checking/calibrating brightness setting)**

display modes: 1080p60,1080p50,1080p24,1080p23

chroma upscaling: lanczos 3 (AR), image upscaling: lanczos 3 (AR)
image doubling: use NNEDI3 to double luma if scaling 2.0x 32 neurons
use NNEDI3 to quadruple luma if scaling 3.0x 16 neurons
image downscaling: camtull-rom (AR+LL)

That looks like a place to start as our cards are about the same although mine is not OC'd. I have a 60VT60 Plasma BTW.

Sammy2 is offline  
post #2808 of 3264 Old 03-07-2014, 11:24 AM
Advanced Member
 
mightyhuhn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 746
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 329 Post(s)
Liked: 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post


You mean that they are similar? I'm not understanding what "in basic" means.


the r9 270 is a rebranded 7870 the clock are not the same. my r7 270 is 950/1400.

mightyhuhn is online now  
post #2809 of 3264 Old 03-07-2014, 07:41 PM
Senior Member
 
edgeh2o's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Fresno, Ca
Posts: 452
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 15
I was playing an old DVD on my HTPC today and it didn't really look that good, so I started googling optimal software setups and now I'm completely lost.

I used to use Nvidia Purevideo and it made DVD's look GREAT. Now I have an AMD 7950, i7-860, etc, Onkyo 707, Panny 60ST60.

I use CCCP + MPC. I google'd trying to see if I could use GPU acceleration but couldn't really find any current info, seems like AVIVO is no more. I have enabled hardware acceleration in CCC and enabled hardware acceleration in CCCP LAV Video Settings to DXVA2 (copy-back). I've added external filters for LAV Video and LAV Audio in MPC. I disabled ALL transform and source internal filters in MPC (not sure what source and transform filters are or mean, but I figured if I added the LAV filter externally, I'll just have that do everything. Am I all set, is that all I need to do? Video quality on the DVD looks the same. Sorry for my noobishness, it's been years since I've done anything like this, and now theres something called madvr, dunno what that is, another video decoder? I see people using it with LAV, I don't really understand that. Apart from madvr though, have I configured everything right, and should I have left any of MPC internal filters checked?

Thanks

Office - Onkyo 506, AV123 X-LS Encore Monitors
Living Room - Panasonic 60ST60, Onkyo 707, Ascend Acoustics Sierra-1 LCR
Car - Focal Flax 3-ways; Arc Audio KS 2500.1, 300.4, 300.2; Audison BitOne; Illusion Audio C12 XL
edgeh2o is offline  
post #2810 of 3264 Old 03-07-2014, 11:40 PM
Newbie
 
mistahbonzai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 13
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
I was playing an old DVD on my HTPC today and it didn't really look that good, so I started googling optimal software setups and now I'm completely lost.

I know you don't want to hear this but..read Mindbombs excellent "Advanced MPC-HC Setup Guide" back on page 1. It will give you a more concise overview (complete with screen crops) than you'll be able to piece together following the many favored (and often confusing/conflicting) configurations offered by the folks here. Not that they aren't knowledgeable but you'll end up going in many directions at once cuz you don't know where you want to end up...

Seeing as how you have a healthy AMD card along with an i7 I would go for no HW Acceleration ("None" in LAV Video setup) for decoding (tends to be more trouble free and better quality than what the card can provide on it's own). That, and you'll have enough variables without introducing additional video driver incompatibilities. Save the GPU for MadVR rendering.

If you start to see that you are running out of GPU (and you can easily do so) then transfer some of the scaling to the CPU. I also run avisynth via ffdshow as an alternate filtering/scaling path but that's a whole 'nother story smile.gif

My basic MadVR settings:

MadVR:
  • Selected Luma and Chrome upscaling (128 and 32 neurons)
  • Selected ED Option 2 (both options selected).
  • Chroma and image upscaling (Bicubic,sharpness 75, AR).
  • Image downscaling (Bicubic, sharpness 100, AR and LL)
  • Banding (low,med)
  • Trade quality... All clear.
Test video:
bbb_sunflower_1080p_60fps_normal.mp4


Shaders (MPC-HC):
My Rig:
Note:
  • Use the 32-bit variants of all the add-ons. They are just as fast, don't require 64-bit addressing and will save you a lot of problems.
  • I would uninstall all previously installed Codec packs and media players before beginning. It may well save you 'interference' later on. And besides you'll no longer need them because the MPC-HC/LAV, MadVR, Reclock, XySubFilter installation will provide all you need to play most media. Honest.
  • Read and follow the guide on page 1 before beginning - it will save you a lot of unnecessary work and aggravation.
edgeh2o likes this.
mistahbonzai is offline  
post #2811 of 3264 Old 03-08-2014, 01:17 AM
Advanced Member
 
mightyhuhn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 746
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 329 Post(s)
Liked: 125
Quote:

Seeing as how you have a healthy AMD card along with an i7 I would go for no HW Acceleration ("None" in LAV Video setup) for decoding (tends to be more trouble free and better quality than what the card can provide on it's own).

trouble maybe, quality no they are all the same

mightyhuhn is online now  
post #2812 of 3264 Old 03-08-2014, 11:02 AM
Member
 
3dward's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 37
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by MlNDBOMB View Post

This might be wrong, but what I understand is that with 29.97i, it can either become 23.976p through film deinterlacing (inverse telecine) or 59.94p through regular deinterlacing. You can also do just 29.97p through regular deinterlacing, but that has reduced quality. Cinematic things are 23.976p, like Game of Thrones. Other things are 59.94p, like The Colbert Report or The Amazing Race. For pal, instead of 23.976p, there is 25p, and instead of 59.94p, there is 50p. Top Gear has cinematic parts that run at 25 fps, which are the actual car reviews and such, while the parts with the live studio audience are 50 fps, as well as the stig's laps I think. I assume you're forced to use video mode deinterlacing for a mix like this, which will result in 50fps for the whole thing. But yea, I'm not really sure.
I'm 90% sure you're wrong.

Interlaced video is made up of fields (top/bottom or odd/even or whatever), which need to be combined to make a frame:



So, 1080i60 refers to a video that is made up of 60 (or 59.94) fields per second (when combined to make a frame, 30/29.97 frames per second). NTSC is around 60Hz because North America uses 60Hz A/C power; PAL is around 50Hz because Europe uses 50Hz A/C. Of course, modern screens only play back progressive content, so de-interlacing needs to be performed at some point.

Telecine is more complex and I don't understand it quite as well, but I think you're right in the basic concept being that a show like Game of Thrones should be played back at 23.976fps through the use of IVTC after de-interlacing (60i de-interlaced to 30p, inverse telecined to 24p).

I think some US sports channels may also broadcast content at 720p60 (as in, 60 full frames each second) for the smoothest motion, but my knowledge is that almost all other HDTV is 1080i60 in the US or 1080i50 in the UK/Europe.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is that, to my knowledge, 1080i HDTV content cannot be de-interlaced to 59.94p or 29.97p like you're saying it can.

I am kind of lost now, though. I think I'll try posting on doom9.
3dward is offline  
post #2813 of 3264 Old 03-08-2014, 12:21 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Nevcairiel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Germany
Posts: 1,045
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 30 Post(s)
Liked: 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3dward View Post

I'm 90% sure you're wrong.

Luckily you left yourself 10% to be wrong then!

People saying 30i and 60i usually mean the same thing, 60 fields per second, or 30 frames per second. Its a bit confusing, and noone can really agree on whats the "official" way to say it. I prefer 60i, since it matches the format you are supposed to watch it at (60 frames after deinterlacing)
Typical deinterlacing then *doubles* the number of frames (because every field becomes a frame), so after deinterlacing you should always have 60 progressive frames per second (if not, your deinterlacing is sub-par) - assuming a 60i stream of course.

The fields don't need to be combined, in fact, they need to be separated and converted into one individual frame each - if you don't do that, you get interlacing artifacts, like combing.
The process of deinterlacing uses information from past and future fields to interpolate the missing information, however in the end every field should result in one individual frame - not combined to 30, but separated to 60!

Interlacing is a trick to pack more temporal resolution (60 frames instead of 30) into the broadcast - it does however sacrifice spatial resolution, as every field is missing half of its lines, as nicely illustrated by your graphic.
The deinterlacers job is to restore those missing lines through interpolation, using information from other fields, and the lines it has in the current field.

It gets more complicated when you add Telecined content into the mix. Telecine is a "trick" to transmit 24p progressive content (like movies) over a 60i interlaced transmission, like broadcast.
Instead of deinterlacing this to 60p, you apply inverse telecine (IVTC) to 24 frames per second. How it basically works is that you take the 24 original frames, split it into two fields, and then repeat one field of every other frame (a 3:2 pattern), which results in 60 fields per second. The receiving end then simply has to discard the duplicate fields, stich the pairs back together, and you get nice and smooth 24p progressive again!
Nevcairiel is offline  
post #2814 of 3264 Old 03-08-2014, 01:48 PM
Member
 
3dward's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 37
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post

Luckily you left yourself 10% to be wrong then!

People saying 30i and 60i usually mean the same thing, 60 fields per second, or 30 frames per second. Its a bit confusing, and noone can really agree on whats the "official" way to say it. I prefer 60i, since it matches the format you are supposed to watch it at (60 frames after deinterlacing)
Typical deinterlacing then *doubles* the number of frames (because every field becomes a frame), so after deinterlacing you should always have 60 progressive frames per second (if not, your deinterlacing is sub-par) - assuming a 60i stream of course.

The fields don't need to be combined, in fact, they need to be separated and converted into one individual frame each - if you don't do that, you get interlacing artifacts, like combing.
The process of deinterlacing uses information from past and future fields to interpolate the missing information, however in the end every field should result in one individual frame - not combined to 30, but separated to 60!

Interlacing is a trick to pack more temporal resolution (60 frames instead of 30) into the broadcast - it does however sacrifice spatial resolution, as every field is missing half of its lines, as nicely illustrated by your graphic.
The deinterlacers job is to restore those missing lines through interpolation, using information from other fields, and the lines it has in the current field.

It gets more complicated when you add Telecined content into the mix. Telecine is a "trick" to transmit 24p progressive content (like movies) over a 60i interlaced transmission, like broadcast.
Instead of deinterlacing this to 60p, you apply inverse telecine (IVTC) to 24 frames per second. How it basically works is that you take the 24 original frames, split it into two fields, and then repeat one field of every other frame (a 3:2 pattern), which results in 60 fields per second. The receiving end then simply has to discard the duplicate fields, stich the pairs back together, and you get nice and smooth 24p progressive again!
Haha, indeed!

I must admit that I was less than 90% sure of what I was posting by the time I got around to submitting it, but I thought I would anyway tongue.gif

I think what I was mis-understanding was the fact that de-interlacing involves the interpolation of fields, rather than just mashing two fields together to make a single frame. Would I be correct in this understanding?
  • Each field in an interlaced stream represents a different moment in time of the video
  • EXCEPT in content which was originally shot in progressive format (at 25fps or 30fps i.e. not telecined), but interlaced afterwards in order to be broadcast on TV - with this content, the fields would come in pairs of odd and even, each corresponding to the same moment in time. So de-interlacing of this content WOULD involve simply combining the two fields into one frame
  • How common is the content I described above?

I must admit that telicine and 3:2 pulldown confuses me quite a lot, but I'm not too fussed about understanding this.

So basically, going back to me watching Top Gear, this is what I think I understand:

  • Top Gear is broadcast at 1080i50 and is not telecined, so should be played back at 50 fps
  • This is achieved by the de-interlacer doing some fancy interpolation of fields to convert each field into one frame
  • madVR with DXVA and an HD 7970 should be able to achieve this

Perhaps I still need to post on the doom9 forums, to determine if this is a bug (btw, I'm using madVR 0.86.7 now)

And, presumably, the order of motion smoothness would be: 60p > 60i > 30p?

Anyway, thanks to mindbomb, nevcairiel and anyone else for their help smile.gif

AFTERTHOUGHT: what if Top Gear is filmed at 25fps progressive and interlaced prior to broadcast? That would explain why the "use half frame rate for deinterlacing" option results in good playback. Also, MediaInfo etc. report that the file is 25fps.
3dward is offline  
post #2815 of 3264 Old 03-08-2014, 01:58 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Nevcairiel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Germany
Posts: 1,045
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 30 Post(s)
Liked: 125
Top Gear is a typical TV show, it may be shot in either 25p, 50p or 50i, its hard to really say. Most likely 50p and interlaced for broadcast to 50i (half the lines from all frames are being dropped), or directly filmed as 50i.
It should definitely be deinterlaced to 50p. Even if it was shot in 25p and then converted to 50i, deinterlacing it to 50p wouldn't do any real harm, unless something is bugged somewhere.

Note that if your TV runs at 60 Hz, playback of 50p may be not as fluid as playback of 25p. Ideally you would switch your TV to 50 Hz to match the content.
Nevcairiel is offline  
post #2816 of 3264 Old 03-08-2014, 02:02 PM
Member
 
3dward's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 37
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post

Top Gear is a typical TV show, it may be shot in either 25p, 50p or 50i, its hard to really say. Most likely 50p and interlaced for broadcast to 50i (half the lines from all frames are being dropped), or directly filmed as 50i.
It should definitely be deinterlaced to 50p. Even if it was shot in 25p and then converted to 50i, deinterlacing it to 50p wouldn't do any real harm, unless something is bugged somewhere.

Note that if your TV runs at 60 Hz, playback of 50p may be not as fluid as playback of 25p. Ideally you would switch your TV to 50 Hz to match the content.
Ah ok, thanks. I use madVR's refresh rate switching option to automatically switch my display to 50Hz, so that should not be an issue.
3dward is offline  
post #2817 of 3264 Old 03-08-2014, 05:09 PM
Advanced Member
 
mightyhuhn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 746
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 329 Post(s)
Liked: 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3dward View Post
AFTERTHOUGHT: what if Top Gear is filmed at 25fps progressive and interlaced prior to broadcast? That would explain why the "use half frame rate for deinterlacing" option results in good playback. Also, MediaInfo etc. report that the file is 25fps.

don't do this. if top gear is telecine it should be ivtc in this case. madvr got huge problems with that it switches to 23p. because it always switches to 23p with film mode.

you should be able to use ivtc with disabled "display modes" and a refreshrate of 50/25 or 60 fps plus SM.

if you can't do this use Deint with 50 fps. else you kinda lose 50% of resolution. a ivtc frame should look way better as a top field odd field bob...

if it is telecine you may be save to just disable deint because it is 2:2 content but in most cases this is a dumb idea.

mightyhuhn is online now  
post #2818 of 3264 Old 03-08-2014, 11:02 PM
Newbie
 
mistahbonzai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 13
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post

trouble maybe, quality no they are all the same

I should have been more specific about 'quality' advantages associated with software decoding. Hardware decoding can harbor peculiarities (interaction between various on-board decoding methods (DXVA, CUDA..) and file formats). These 'bugs' can cause output abnormalities (antialiasing, gamma mismatch, color depth..) associated with specific configurations. On the other hand software decoding tends to be more tolerant of non-standard file formats and/or encoding errors.

The end result is that software decoding is more apt to provide consistent 'top quality' output than on-board decoding. Not to mention it is easier to work around glitches - GPU support engeers are notorious for ignoring 'bugs' they believe are minor. They tend to believe that it's no big deal if it doesn't cause crashes or hangs Hey it still outputs a video stream. even though it looks a bit different - we'll get to it next release (case closed)... Meanwhile the work-around is don't do that mad.gif
mistahbonzai is offline  
post #2819 of 3264 Old 03-09-2014, 07:57 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Postmoderndesign's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,123
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 37 Post(s)
Liked: 34
It appears that a program is using the capacity of openCL on my CPU making it impossible to use madVR doubling. Is there any way to identify which program is causing the problem so I can shut it down?
Postmoderndesign is offline  
post #2820 of 3264 Old 03-09-2014, 02:53 PM
Advanced Member
 
mightyhuhn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 746
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 329 Post(s)
Liked: 125

open cl is a gpu thing and on a intel gpu it is impossible to use it they are to slow.  madvr is not using the opencl with cpu at all even the upload comes from directx and not the cpu!

mightyhuhn is online now  
Reply Home Theater Computers

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off