Official Ceton Echo Extender Info Thread - Page 109 - AVS Forum
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post #3241 of 7721 Old 11-23-2012, 03:53 PM
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It's still in beta- they have a week to fix it before you can/should call it a POS.
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post #3242 of 7721 Old 11-23-2012, 05:06 PM
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My hopes are like many of us, a good replacement extender for 7MC.

The Echo is definetly not a POS, but is in beta and has it's issues as such. A little disappointing, yes, POS, NO.

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post #3243 of 7721 Old 11-23-2012, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by tgrinch View Post

I agree with this - as much as I'd like the Echo to hit the public on target, I think it needs another few weeks to a month to be ready to release. Just my opinion and not a negative take on the actual product - it's going to be great once the existing items are resolved.

Or for beta testers like me to actually get an Echo to test with smile.gif My beta test won't actual start until the end of Nov. There is no way they can release it by then smile.gif
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post #3244 of 7721 Old 11-24-2012, 05:26 AM
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There is no way they can release this product in 6 days without properly vetting the 1080 display and that can only happen with beta testing of sufficient length. Either they push back the release date back OR they release it on-time and bring 1080 in at a later date.

I think the more important question though is what the hell is the problem? Not having something as important as 1080 resolution leads me to believe that there is a hardware issue with the Freescale SoC.
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post #3245 of 7721 Old 11-24-2012, 06:52 AM
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Well, it's most likely going to be like Sammy stated in many post's, they are going to push a few FW release out while the units are in shipping and I suspect a few more releases shortly there after. If it's a Freescale issue and FW can't correct it then well ...

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post #3246 of 7721 Old 11-24-2012, 06:56 AM
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Originally Posted by skybolt View Post

Well, it's most likely going to be like Sammy stated in many post's, they are going to push a few FW release out while the units are in shipping and I suspect a few more releases shortly there after. If it's a Freescale issue and FW can't correct it then well ...

Pushing a FW update that has to be downloaded to enable significant functionality after the unit has shipped isn't all that uncommon. What I do question, though, is what was the point of the beta if so much of what this is meant to be used for is not even going to be tested during the beta run?
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post #3247 of 7721 Old 11-24-2012, 07:08 AM
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Originally Posted by reggie14 View Post

The problem with 1080i material is a different issue than the 720p output restriction, although it might be tangentially related. The Echo will only output at 720p0- that's a known and acknowledged limitation of the current firmware. The problem is that there's a bug in the playback of 1080i material. I'm not sure where the problem is, but my guess is probably the deinterlacer. Considering so much HD material is 1080i, I don't think the Echo is a usable product without Ceton fixing this problem first. We'll see if they come up with a fix in the next week. But considering this bug has been known for quite a while now I wouldn't hold my breath...

Firmware or not, it's a big kick in the pants. Probably THE main attraction to this device is extending live TV/DVR for a lot of people. Otherwise, there are a ton of network capable media players out there that can handle the general media playback (and at 1080p vs 720 at that) for far less. To really be effective on the TV side these days, such a device NEEDS to be able to output 1080 AND have at least decent deinterlacing as outside of a small handfull of 720p channels, everything else in a typical lineup is interlaced. Without that, this device is almost pointless. The more I read about this sort of stuff on the echo, the more my high hopes are shifting to the rumored set top/non gaming version of the next xbox.
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post #3248 of 7721 Old 11-24-2012, 07:08 AM
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For LiveTV playback, including 1080i, my Echo has been rock solid. I do run it through my Denon AVR-2312ci using the i/p upscaler so that may be why I'm not seeing the issues that other beta testers are talking about.

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post #3249 of 7721 Old 11-24-2012, 07:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Biggen_PCB View Post

There is no way they can release this product in 6 days without properly vetting the 1080 display and that can only happen with beta testing of sufficient length. Either they push back the release date back OR they release it on-time and bring 1080 in at a later date.
I think the more important question though is what the hell is the problem? Not having something as important as 1080 resolution leads me to believe that there is a hardware issue with the Freescale SoC.

I suspect it is a Freescale issue, but I doubt it is a hardware issue. Ceton probably had to use some Freescale SDK for various features, including decoding and deinterlacing. As I understand it, most of that isn't done purely in hardware, so there should be plenty of room to fix the issues with firmware/software updates. It just concerns me that we're one week out and some basic things are still missing/broken.
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post #3250 of 7721 Old 11-24-2012, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

For LiveTV playback, including 1080i, my Echo has been rock solid. I do run it through my Denon AVR-2312ci using the i/p upscaler so that may be why I'm not seeing the issues that other beta testers are talking about.

Just for testing purposes, try plugging your Echo directly into your TV. I doubt this is something that only impacts some Echos, although Ceton has been fairly quiet on this. It's not getting a ton of attention on the Ceton forums from the testers or developers, though, so maybe how "bad" it looks does depend on other factors. The Ceton folks have suggested they've been using these units at home, which I've interpreted has meaning they've been using them as their primary WMC extenders at home. If that's true, then they must have something else going on than I do, because I really find 1080i playback unwatchable for anything other than testing purposes.
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post #3251 of 7721 Old 11-24-2012, 07:20 AM
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Originally Posted by C17chief View Post

To really be effective on the TV side these days, such a device NEEDS to be able to output 1080 AND have at least decent deinterlacing as outside of a small handfull of 720p channels, everything else in a typical lineup is interlaced. Without that, this device is almost pointless.

I don't disagree- I'm just saying I'm fairly confident they can fix this with a future firmware update. It's (probably) just a matter of time. I'm sure Ceton understands the importance of 1080 output and a decent up/downscaler and deinterlacer for a device like this.
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post #3252 of 7721 Old 11-24-2012, 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted by reggie14 View Post

Just for testing purposes, try plugging your Echo directly into your TV. I doubt this is something that only impacts some Echos, although Ceton has been fairly quiet on this. It's not getting a ton of attention on the Ceton forums from the testers or developers, though, so maybe how "bad" it looks does depend on other factors. The Ceton folks have suggested they've been using these units at home, which I've interpreted has meaning they've been using them as their primary WMC extenders at home. If that's true, then they must have something else going on than I do, because I really find 1080i playback unwatchable for anything other than testing purposes.

Easier said than done. My TV is 20 feet away from my other equipment and is fed by a long HDMI cable and long power cord. There is ethernet there, though, for the very limited stuff that this 2008 Samsung does with it. I could run an extension cord to power the Echo though.. Or pull it out of the cabinet and stretch the cabling across the floor, but that sounds like more hassle than it is worth to me.

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post #3253 of 7721 Old 11-24-2012, 07:41 AM
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... The beta testers must be a timid group to not be in open revolt!

Not so sure timid is the right word, but revolting would get us no where, and besides, who said no one has spoken up biggrin.gif

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post #3254 of 7721 Old 11-24-2012, 07:48 AM
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Just a heads up for those that want a working extender now, Walmart has an Xbox 360 slim bundled with a game package for $159.99 ($20 cheaper than the echo!) FWIW, I think i'm holding out for the echo still since this will be in my bedroom and I want as quiet as possible, but with the lack of info and promised features, I'm sweating bullets over my Newegg preorder.
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post #3255 of 7721 Old 11-24-2012, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

Easier said than done. My TV is 20 feet away from my other equipment and is fed by a long HDMI cable and long power cord. There is ethernet there, though, for the very limited stuff that this 2008 Samsung does with it. I could run an extension cord to power the Echo though.. Or pull it out of the cabinet and stretch the cabling across the floor, but that sounds like more hassle than it is worth to me.

I think if you did, you would see what the rest of us are talking about. Especially Color Space and 1080 things. One Dac setting can change everything though, we'll see.

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post #3256 of 7721 Old 11-24-2012, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

For LiveTV playback, including 1080i, my Echo has been rock solid. I do run it through my Denon AVR-2312ci using the i/p upscaler so that may be why I'm not seeing the issues that other beta testers are talking about.

Same here Sammy, my Onkyo TX-SR608 does a pretty good job also....
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post #3257 of 7721 Old 11-24-2012, 08:21 AM
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If you were talking about just bad deinterlacing from 1080i to 1080P that is fixable with a good outboard scaler... It was not uncommon for some older CE devices to only support 1080i. That is liveable with if the device can interlace 1080P before output. It is just something to shake your head at as any $29 Black Friday DVD or BD player can output 1080P. Instead of being largely silent on the current subject of the hobbled together video quality of this device with a more than current chipset they should be crowing about the outstanding image this device delivers.

Maybe the SOC vendor has Ceton by the short hairs and the NDA says they can't publicly cry no matter how tight the vise is on their corporate jewels. If that is not the case they need to grow a pair and man up to the situation.

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post #3258 of 7721 Old 11-24-2012, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

Easier said than done. My TV is 20 feet away from my other equipment and is fed by a long HDMI cable and long power cord. There is ethernet there, though, for the very limited stuff that this 2008 Samsung does with it. I could run an extension cord to power the Echo though.. Or pull it out of the cabinet and stretch the cabling across the floor, but that sounds like more hassle than it is worth to me.
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I think if you did, you would see what the rest of us are talking about. Especially Color Space and 1080 things. One Dac setting can change everything though, we'll see.
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Same here Sammy, my Onkyo TX-SR608 does a pretty good job also....

Okay. I did this for the curiosity in me and my friends here at avs. I viewed several stations reporting 1080i here as well as ones I know to be 1080i. It looks okay to me. 1080p, not so much but I only tested one file. I'm thinking that maybe the problems you guys are experiencing lie elsewhere in your playback chain. The playback from my Echo is the same whether I go direct to my TV or through my AVR.

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post #3259 of 7721 Old 11-24-2012, 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by gtgray View Post

If you were talking about just bad deinterlacing from 1080i to 1080P that is fixable with a good outboard scaler... It was not uncommon for some older CE devices to only support 1080i. That is liveable with if the device can interlace 1080P before output. It is just something to shake your head at as any $29 Black Friday DVD or BD player can output 1080P. Instead of being largely silent on the current subject of the hobbled together video quality of this device with a more than current chipset they should be crowing about the outstanding image this device delivers.
Maybe the SOC vendor has Ceton by the short hairs and the NDA says they can't publicly cry no matter how tight the vise is on their corporate jewels. If that is not the case they need to grow a pair and man up to the situation.

HUH?

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post #3260 of 7721 Old 11-24-2012, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

Easier said than done. My TV is 20 feet away from my other equipment and is fed by a long HDMI cable and long power cord. There is ethernet there, though, for the very limited stuff that this 2008 Samsung does with it. I could run an extension cord to power the Echo though.. Or pull it out of the cabinet and stretch the cabling across the floor, but that sounds like more hassle than it is worth to me.
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I think if you did, you would see what the rest of us are talking about. Especially Color Space and 1080 things. One Dac setting can change everything though, we'll see.
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Same here Sammy, my Onkyo TX-SR608 does a pretty good job also....

Okay. I did this for the curiosity in me and my friends here at avs. I viewed several stations reporting 1080i here as well as ones I know to be 1080i. It looks okay to me. 1080p, not so much but I only tested one file. I'm thinking that maybe the problems you guys are experiencing lie elsewhere in your playback chain. The playback from my Echo is the same whether I go direct to my TV or through my AVR.

So you see no problems at all with 1080i down converted (scaled) to 720p? The deinterlacing looks good..nothing odd in colors.it looks like it does if you pulled the echo out of the chain?

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post #3261 of 7721 Old 11-24-2012, 09:07 AM
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It looks fine. The echo is definitely not "un-watchable" and I don't need Dramamine. There's a bit of work to do here but it looks fine.

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post #3262 of 7721 Old 11-24-2012, 09:17 AM
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Well, considering Ceton has pretty much confirmed a problem with their deinterlacer I think Sammy's eyes aren't particularly sensitive.
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post #3263 of 7721 Old 11-24-2012, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by reggie14 View Post

Well, considering Ceton has pretty much confirmed a problem with their deinterlacer I think Sammy's eyes aren't particularly sensitive.

Source?

My eyes are old but i can see problems with de-interlacing when I see them. I will say that the "ticker" on the news station I tried was a bit jittery. Fortunately for me, I don't watch the ticker on the news stations because I think that they are a distraction. As a matter of fact I typically don't watch the news because it is all bs to cover up what is really going on.. less I digress.

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post #3264 of 7721 Old 11-24-2012, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

Source?
My eyes are old but i can see problems with de-interlacing when I see them. I will say that the "ticker" on the news station I tried was a bit jittery. Fortunately for me, I don't watch the ticker on the news stations because I think that they are a distraction. As a matter of fact I typically don't watch the news because it is all bs to cover up what is really going on.. less I digress.

I PMed you the source.
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post #3265 of 7721 Old 11-24-2012, 10:39 AM
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So the deinterlacer is being worked on..

Maybe ceton needs to bring nevcairiel and madishi on board on contract.

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post #3266 of 7721 Old 11-24-2012, 10:46 AM
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Ceton probably needs Freescale to fix something. That's probably why we're still stuck on 720p too. And why high-bitrate video still is a little finicky.
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post #3267 of 7721 Old 11-24-2012, 11:02 AM
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Sammy2 - Are you suggesting that 720p and 1080i content quality is basically the same on your setup via the Echo? I experience great quality on my HTPC but not on the Echo extender. 720p looks fine but not 1080i.

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post #3268 of 7721 Old 11-24-2012, 11:54 AM
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Sammy2 - Are you suggesting that 720p and 1080i content quality is basically the same on your setup via the Echo? I experience great quality on my HTPC but not on the Echo extender. 720p looks fine but not 1080i.

No. It doesn't look as good as on my HTPC but it is by no means horrific or un-watchable as other's have mentioned. I wonder if this has anything to do with the monitor/HDTV being used too?

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post #3269 of 7721 Old 11-24-2012, 02:41 PM
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No. It doesn't look as good as on my HTPC but it is by no means horrific or un-watchable as other's have mentioned. I wonder if this has anything to do with the monitor/HDTV being used too?

I have an HP X280n and 1080i content is stunning. That is 4 year old box. Looks better than a PC, better than a Tivo.. Too bad the example I have has a ramdom shutdown bug or I would useit instead of my Tivo as the main TV source for my 92" set... To get the PC making video that looks like that requires a recent cut of MadVR a honking Nvidia card and some very high settings, not to mention a calibration just for the PC. I was hoping that the Echo with a modern chipset could at least hang with the HP in video quality.

BTW, I am fussy about sources with a screen that size. I have a Radiance XS Video Processor inline and use the 125 point color calibration/Look Up Table to get color right. I aint moving backwards for convenience. The Sage HD 300 makes pretty video and outputs native rez in the correct colorspace as well. We are too many years down the road from the X280n and the HD 300 to accept anything but state of art quality images coming out of one of these extender devices at the price of the Echo.

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post #3270 of 7721 Old 11-24-2012, 03:48 PM
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No. It doesn't look as good as on my HTPC but it is by no means horrific or un-watchable as other's have mentioned. I wonder if this has anything to do with the monitor/HDTV being used too?

I have an HP X280n and 1080i content is stunning. That is 4 year old box. Looks better than a PC, better than a Tivo.. Too bad the example I have has a ramdom shutdown bug or I would useit instead of my Tivo as the main TV source for my 92" set... To get the PC making video that looks like that requires a recent cut of MadVR a honking Nvidia card and some very high settings, not to mention a calibration just for the PC. I was hoping that the Echo with a modern chipset could at least hang with the HP in video quality.

BTW, I am fussy about sources with a screen that size. I have a Radiance XS Video Processor inline and use the 125 point color calibration/Look Up Table to get color right. I aint moving backwards for convenience. The Sage HD 300 makes pretty video and outputs native rez in the correct colorspace as well. We are too many years down the road from the X280n and the HD 300 to accept anything but state of art quality images coming out of one of these extender devices at the price of the Echo.

this is a big +1. Much of the challenges of past devices with deinterlacing/conversion was due to "not enough horsepower" or "it wasn't designed for that". Unfortunately, for Ceton the echo was and is designed for exactly that. If it cant do 1080i with excellence what faith should future customers have that it can or will do 1080p well?

In search of video bliss...
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