Official Ceton Echo Extender Info Thread - Page 136 - AVS Forum
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post #4051 of 7721 Old 12-07-2012, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

Nothing really has been hinted or said that I've seen discussing play store apps but I'm pretty sure those will be available but am not 100% sure. Having those apps means netflix and hulu as well as things like HBO Go I would think. We should all know relatively soon.

I've said this before, but its worth repeating: just because the Echo will run Android doesn't mean it will run our favorite apps. I think there's a couple/few different ways Android developers lock down their apps so they only run on certain devices. It seems like Netflix runs on just about everything, but the same cannot be said for Hulu and HBO Go. Both are getting better about supporting more devices, but I suspect Ceton is going to have a hard time attracting their attention.

HBO Go might actually be more likely than Hulu Plus. At least HBO Go runs on GoogleTV- there's still no Hulu Plus app for GoogleTV. It's hard to say how relevant that is, given that the Echo will run "regular" Android apps, not GoogleTV Android apps (Which, by the way, is probably going to make navigation with a remote a giant pain. I wonder what Ceton's plans are there.).

I'll also add that I'm not expecting Google Play support. Google licenses their proprietary apps, including the Play store. Ceton would need to get Google's permission to load those apps. Ceton might decide its just easier to just use the Amazon app store. That's probably not a big problem, although I've noticed developers don't always update their apps in the Amazon store at the same time as the Play store. Ceton probably could open up a hole to let us install GApps, which is how the people running custom Android ROMs get those apps, but I wonder if that could create problems for them if they wanted to support copy-protected video in the Android environment (since the usual way to install GApps is to install it on an unlocked device from a custom recovery).
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post #4052 of 7721 Old 12-07-2012, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by mcturkey View Post

But it is quite possible to support the necessary DRM using a plugin with XBMC. That has been discussed in this thread and others - it just requires someone to step up to the plate and produce it. Once IP TV distribution is formally approved by the FCC, we'll see demand for that kind of plugin go way up, and eventually we could see the WMC part of the Echo become irrelevant. While this is still a year or so out, the writing is on the wall for WMC and extenders.

How is the FCC IP TV distribution requirement that much of a game-changer compared to where we are today with CableCard and PlayReady DRM?
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post #4053 of 7721 Old 12-07-2012, 09:22 AM
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I iike windows 7, but i wont be able to play DirectX 11.1 and DirectX 12 games on windows 7. And i already bought windows 8 and would like to install it.
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I can't install Windows 8 because my system works great on Windows 7 and I don't want to mess it up. If you can go with Windows 7 there really insn't a reason not to do it.
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post #4054 of 7721 Old 12-07-2012, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by reggie14 View Post

How is the FCC IP TV distribution requirement that much of a game-changer compared to where we are today with CableCard and PlayReady DRM?

It gets us outside the M$/WMC walled garden where PlayReady isn't a requirement.

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post #4055 of 7721 Old 12-07-2012, 09:25 AM
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I iike windows 7, but i wont be able to play DirectX 11.1 and DirectX 12 games on windows 7. And i already bought windows 8 and would like to install it.

Not being a gamer, I didn't know this was an issue. Can't this be done with the correct video card and drivers in Win7?

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post #4056 of 7721 Old 12-07-2012, 09:30 AM
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no, they will only work on windows 8. but there are no DirectX 11.1 or DirectX 12 games right now.
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Not being a gamer, I didn't know this was an issue. Can't this be done with the correct video card and drivers in Win7?
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post #4057 of 7721 Old 12-07-2012, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

It gets us outside the M$/WMC walled garden.

How? The current OCUR tuners, as far as I understand it, aren't approved just for WMC- they work with PlayReady. If someone else licenses and implements PlayReady it's my understanding they can talk to HDHR Prime and InfiniTV tuners (although, I'd probably expect that it would require an update on the tuner side, as there might be some hard-coded PlayReady keys in those tuners).

The problem has been finding someone that wants to implement the DRM. You're going to be in a walled-garden. The question is whose walled-garden.
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post #4058 of 7721 Old 12-07-2012, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by reggie14 View Post

How is the FCC IP TV distribution requirement that much of a game-changer compared to where we are today with CableCard and PlayReady DRM?

It gets us outside the M$/WMC walled garden where PlayReady isn't a requirement.

I am not clear, but I doubt that any content provider/owner would support broadcast TV that doesn't fall into some sort of PlayReady like requirement. If the echo is to be used as some form of IPTV decoder wouldn't It mean that Ceton would have to partner with the TV providers to enable the echo to serve as an iptv ready box? I don't see any easy path for Ceton to make this happen.

IMO no matter what Android brings its really still predicated on the app/platform owners being willing to support the specific device, No?

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post #4059 of 7721 Old 12-07-2012, 09:50 AM
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Sort of off-topic for the echo thread but this is what is happening sooner than later with the HDHR Prime via a f/w update.. LiveTV outside the PlayReady Realm using DLNA DRM schemes. So yes in a different walled garden but one that (hopefully) includes more devices. Right now it is only known to be the PS3.

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post #4060 of 7721 Old 12-07-2012, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by reggie14 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

It gets us outside the M$/WMC walled garden.

How? The current OCUR tuners, as far as I understand it, aren't approved just for WMC- they work with PlayReady. If someone else licenses and implements PlayReady it's my understanding they can talk to HDHR Prime and InfiniTV tuners (although, I'd probably expect that it would require an update on the tuner side, as there might be some hard-coded PlayReady keys in those tuners).

The problem has been finding someone that wants to implement the DRM. You're going to be in a walled-garden. The question is whose walled-garden.

yeah, what he said. Well said.

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post #4061 of 7721 Old 12-07-2012, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by mcturkey View Post

But it is quite possible to support the necessary DRM using a plugin with XBMC. That has been discussed in this thread and others - it just requires someone to step up to the plate and produce it. Once IP TV distribution is formally approved by the FCC, we'll see demand for that kind of plugin go way up, and eventually we could see the WMC part of the Echo become irrelevant. While this is still a year or so out, the writing is on the wall for WMC and extenders.

True, but I am not sure how a "plugin" could get DRM qualification in an open source enviroment. Not to mention the device it's running on. i agree IP Tv will change the playing field, but I think that is not as great as it sounds becausse of DRM.

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post #4062 of 7721 Old 12-07-2012, 10:28 AM
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yeah, what he said. Well said.

Yeah, him too. +1

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post #4063 of 7721 Old 12-07-2012, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by reggie14 View Post

How? The current OCUR tuners, as far as I understand it, aren't approved just for WMC- they work with PlayReady. If someone else licenses and implements PlayReady it's my understanding they can talk to HDHR Prime and InfiniTV tuners (although, I'd probably expect that it would require an update on the tuner side, as there might be some hard-coded PlayReady keys in those tuners).
The problem has been finding someone that wants to implement the DRM. You're going to be in a walled-garden. The question is whose walled-garden.

PlayReady is just one of the couple DRMs approved by CableLabs. You don't have to use PlayReady. But I have to agree that expecting DRM on Open Source project is oxymoron.
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post #4064 of 7721 Old 12-07-2012, 10:29 AM
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PlayReady is just one of the couple DRMs approved by CableLabs. You don't have to use PlayReady.

Ok, what else is there?

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post #4065 of 7721 Old 12-07-2012, 10:36 AM
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Ok, what else is there?

I don't know if you have been following this thread at all but DCTP-IP?

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post #4066 of 7721 Old 12-07-2012, 10:45 AM
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I don't know if you have been following this thread at all but DCTP-IP?

Yeah I have been in the shadows following that one, but Foxbat was saying that more then "PlayReady" is qualified by CableLabs for DRM playback. i thought that was interesting, since there are not a lot of players using software DRM (PC), only WMC to my knowladge.

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post #4067 of 7721 Old 12-07-2012, 10:48 AM
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Not even in the same catagory, there will have to be ALOT more features added before that could be discussed. Direct DVD/BD rips would need to be supported, and all HBR Audio/Video. Not saying they won't get there in time, but right now that's not even in their sights I don't think.

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post #4068 of 7721 Old 12-07-2012, 10:49 AM
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Yeah I have been in the shadows following that one, but Foxbat was saying that more then "PlayReady" is qualified by CableLabs for DRM playback. i thought that was interesting, since there are not a lot of players using software DRM (PC), only WMC to my knowladge.

I think there are 3 different DRMs approved by CableLabs. But the names escape me right now. Anyone can implement a WMC like solution using one of the three approved DRMs. But make no mistake making such a product is no easy task and cost $$$. So, only big dogs like Microsoft and TiVo can afford to throw money at it.

As mentioned above, open source projects need not apply.
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post #4069 of 7721 Old 12-07-2012, 11:01 AM
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Sort of off-topic for the echo thread but this is what is happening sooner than later with the HDHR Prime via a f/w update.. LiveTV outside the PlayReady Realm using DLNA DRM schemes. So yes in a different walled garden but one that (hopefully) includes more devices. Right now it is only known to be the PS3.

Does the PS3 play ripped blu-rays? I know it plays the discs themselves. If it does. Bring it on!
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post #4070 of 7721 Old 12-07-2012, 11:05 AM
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PlayReady is just one of the couple DRMs approved by CableLabs. You don't have to use PlayReady. But I have to agree that expecting DRM on Open Source project is oxymoron.

I don't see why. You can already set XBMC to use closed source programs like TMT5 to play Blu-Rays and HD-DVD's. I fail to see why someone couldn't build a program that uses PlayReady (or one of the others) to handle the DRM, but allows via an API or something for XBMC (or any other app) to handle the guide, scheduling recordings, and starting playback.
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post #4071 of 7721 Old 12-07-2012, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by skybolt View Post

Ok, what else is there?

I don't know if you have been following this thread at all but DCTP-IP?

DCTP requires the same stringent licensing model as PlayReady. Its really an option to/for DRM.
If I recall a while back I read that the licensing model was worse than MS.
I hadn't been following the thread you posted but interesting indeed. I wonder if that's what the Ceton roadmap looks like? If they plan on extending the live/recordedTv capability via the companion/echo/infinitv platforms.

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post #4072 of 7721 Old 12-07-2012, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post

PlayReady is just one of the couple DRMs approved by CableLabs. You don't have to use PlayReady. But I have to agree that expecting DRM on Open Source project is oxymoron.

I didn't mean to say otherwise. I was just saying that I think all the OCUR tuners currently use PlayReady, although it sounds like SiliconDust will be supporting DCTP-IP pretty soon, too.

I don't know much about Helix DRM (the other approved scheme), but its my understanding that DCTP-IP is set up for just protecting content during transmission, not storage. So I'm assuming DCTP-IP is off the table if you want to create a DVR.
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post #4073 of 7721 Old 12-07-2012, 11:33 AM
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DCTP requires the same stringent licensing model as PlayReady. Its really an option to/for DRM.
If I recall a while back I read that the licensing model was worse than MS.
I hadn't been following the thread you posted but interesting indeed. I wonder if that's what the Ceton roadmap looks like? If they plan on extending the live/recordedTv capability via the companion/echo/infinitv platforms.

Where does this leave people like me who have have a HDHR Prime and an echo if it is some sort of software soloution that ends up on the HTPC for the InfiniTV4??

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post #4074 of 7721 Old 12-07-2012, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by reggie14 View Post

I didn't mean to say otherwise. I was just saying that I think all the OCUR tuners currently use PlayReady, although it sounds like SiliconDust will be supporting DCTP-IP pretty soon, too.
I don't know much about Helix DRM (the other approved scheme), but its my understanding that DCTP-IP is set up for just protecting content during transmission, not storage. So I'm assuming DCTP-IP is off the table if you want to create a DVR.

Maybe so but since the Prime is a Network attached device maybe it can back-feed the CopyOnce recorded wtv file to another DLNA / DCTP-IP device too?

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post #4075 of 7721 Old 12-07-2012, 11:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mariob33 View Post

DCTP requires the same stringent licensing model as PlayReady. Its really an option to/for DRM. e
If I recall a while back I read that the licensing model was worse than MS.
I hadn't been following the thread you posted but interesting indeed. I wonder if that's what the Ceton roadmap looks like? If they plan on extending the live/recordedTv capability via the companion/echo/infinitv platforms.

Where does this leave people like me who have have a HDHR Prime and an echo if it is some sort of software soloution that ends up on the HTPC for the InfiniTV4??

I think no matter what you will need a secured location to store the content. In other words a PC/Device like the PS3 etc. The content no matter what is written to the device where it was set to be recorded.
I haven't tried, but with the hdhomerun if I record a copy protected show to HTPC HD1 can I watch that content on another HTPC? Not the extender but with another PC. I am betting no but would have to test. I bet it will work with a PS3 by recording to the drive in the PS. People like us with the HDhomerun better hope that usb port on the echo is for attaching external disks someday. then a plugin sounds feasible. Then again im just hoping again for more than the echo was planned to be smile.gif ..We can all hope cant we biggrin.gif .

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post #4076 of 7721 Old 12-07-2012, 12:07 PM
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Ok so I got the Echo back from RMA and at first it didn't post again, but I power cycled it and pulled the hdmi cable out and put it back in and it finally did. I then added the extender to windows media center and it connected fine.

So I fire up live TV and this is what I get:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrJqzDbaWeM

All the colors are wildly off. Audio is perfectly fine except for the volume control not working which I think I read somewhere it's not yet implemented.

I tried changing from 720 to 1080 (in the ceton echo settings from the plugin they recommended to install) and no difference. I tried changing to non HD channels and no difference. It's not on Pal, it's on NTSC since I live in the us and use Cox. I see no other video options to choose from in the echo settings. My network is lightning fast and my TV is only like a year old and works perfectly with the Cox DVR.

I tried to pull up a recorded program (Criminal Minds) which I know should display fine (although sometimes recordings come out a little on the white side from my htpc which I think is a separate issue with the way white color ranges are processed and I haven't yet had the time to work on it), and it's just stuck on loading it with the circle animation in the middle of the screen that WMC uses to tell you it's thinking. It's been stuck on this for over a minute and nothing. I can't load movies either. They also get stuck on loading.

Any ideas?

EDIT: I let the thing sit while trying to load a movie and after 10-15 minutes it just rebooted and went to the main WMC page.
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post #4077 of 7721 Old 12-07-2012, 12:29 PM
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Ok so I got the Echo back from RMA and at first it didn't post again, but I power cycled it and pulled the hdmi cable out and put it back in and it finally did. I then added the extender to windows media center and it connected fine.

So I fire up live TV and this is what I get:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrJqzDbaWeM

All the colors are wildly off. Audio is perfectly fine except for the volume control not working which I think I read somewhere it's not yet implemented.

I tried changing from 720 to 1080 (in the ceton echo settings from the plugin they recommended to install) and no difference. I tried changing to non HD channels and no difference. It's not on Pal, it's on NTSC since I live in the us and use Cox. I see no other video options to choose from in the echo settings. My network is lightning fast and my TV is only like a year old and works perfectly with the Cox DVR.

I tried to pull up a recorded program (Criminal Minds) which I know should display fine (although sometimes recordings come out a little on the white side from my htpc which I think is a separate issue with the way white color ranges are processed and I haven't yet had the time to work on it), and it's just stuck on loading it with the circle animation in the middle of the screen that WMC uses to tell you it's thinking. It's been stuck on this for over a minute and nothing. I can't load movies either. They also get stuck on loading.

Any ideas?

the green screen was introduced with this latest FW. Try simply changing sources on your AVR/TV or seat/reseat the HDMI cable. It seems to only impact certain TV's. I have a Pioneer 114 and get it whenever I don't follow a specific power on sequence of devices.

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post #4078 of 7721 Old 12-07-2012, 12:39 PM
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Ok, I power cycled the ceton one more time and it fixed the green screen video problems. Everything is coming in clear now.

It crashed on its way over to ESPN from Fox News when I typed in 1030 (not hitting enter after). So I had to reboot it again.

I still can't get recorded shows or movies to play. They still get stuck on loading.

EDIT: And switching back to Fox News crashed it again. That's too frequent to keep crashing on channel changes.

EDIT AGAIN: I guess it's not necessarily a complete crash, more like a lockup, as I can hit the WMC button and access the menu and move up and down, even access the guide. I can get back to live TV by selecting a channel in the guide but the way it flashed and paused and flashed again (within a second or two) before eventually getting there makes it feel very unstable, and I'm noticing some very frequent pixelation on AMC HD now. So I just power cycled again and it took me right to AMC HD and the pixelation is much less than it was but still there. It's the end of an old film (Princess Bride) and soon Hannibal will start, so I'm going to leave it on this channel and see if the pixelation continues.
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post #4079 of 7721 Old 12-07-2012, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by mariob33 View Post

the green screen was introduced with this latest FW. Try simply changing sources on your AVR/TV or seat/reseat the HDMI cable. It seems to only impact certain TV's. I have a Pioneer 114 and get it whenever I don't follow a specific power on sequence of devices.

I have this and a hard boot of the echo clears it up. Yes, it is a power sequence HDMI/HDCP/EDID thing. It shows that ceton is working the bug/issue reported early on but didn't get it quite right.

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post #4080 of 7721 Old 12-07-2012, 12:52 PM
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Ok, I power cycled the ceton one more time and it fixed the green screen video problems. Everything is coming in clear now.
It crashed on its way over to ESPN from Fox News when I typed in 1030 (not hitting enter after). So I had to reboot it again.
I still can't get recorded shows or movies to play. They still get stuck on loading.
EDIT: And switching back to Fox News crashed it again. That's too frequent to keep crashing on channel changes.

I don't have crashes on channel changes. Do you have a tuning adapter? Which tuner are you using, BTW?

It does take a while for your libraryies to load on the echo the first time but after that it should be okay.

Sammy2 is offline  
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