Official Ceton Echo Extender Info Thread - Page 139 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #4141 of 7721 Old 12-08-2012, 04:07 PM
Member
 
Haba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 135
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdraw View Post

Except the desire. I'v seen no signs that Microsoft has any desire to do anything that requires a tuner or recording. Microsoft has put all its eggs in the streaming basket. It can't be a coincidence that with all the new 360 apps, not a single one works as an extender for any TV provider's STB -- the Comcast and FiOS apps are IPTV, not tuner based and can't access DVR'd content.
Sony has done stuff like this with the PS3 in other countries, so that and the hard drive gives me some reasons to believe Sony might do this.

Agreed. Microsoft has some big streaming plans.

Microsoft 'Xbox TV' device due in 2013 with casual gaming and streaming
Haba is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4142 of 7721 Old 12-08-2012, 05:04 PM
AVS Special Member
 
bdraw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Tampa FL 33629
Posts: 2,543
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

Can clock timings in hardware be fixed by software? I know that yhe audio and video cocks are not matched on PC's but that is fixed with software. Can this be done with the Freescale SoC? Does it have the ability to stream HBR mkvs? Will they need to recall the hardware because the chip is broken?

I don't fully understand the problem, but I do know that everyone I've talked to at Ceton fully expects to release a firmware update to fix the 1080i playback issue. In fact they were optimistic that it'd be fixed by now. No offense to anyone in this thread, but I think if it was an unworkable hardware limitation, Ceton would've determined that by now and told people. My guess is that the Ceton Dev crew is fully aware of the chip's limitations and had already engineered a solution, but the chip isn't responding as documented and they are working with Freecell to figure out why. Perhaps they are using function that wasn't fully tested, who knows.

Ben
How good could it be if it isn't HD?
Engadget HD
bdraw is offline  
post #4143 of 7721 Old 12-08-2012, 05:21 PM
AVS Special Member
 
captain_video's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Ellicott City, MD
Posts: 3,574
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 75 Post(s)
Liked: 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by tootal2 View Post

How do I install the ceton echo beta? I click beta in the about menu and save. The beta firmware has not installed yet.
What is a beta firmware number?
thanks
You need to power cycle the Echo. After you see the connecting screen it will then display the ceton logo with a progress bar. When the firmware update is complete the Echo will reboot on its own and display the new firmware version on the connecting screen along with your IP address and MAC address.
captain_video is online now  
post #4144 of 7721 Old 12-08-2012, 05:33 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Sammy2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Right next to Wineville, CA
Posts: 9,835
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 115 Post(s)
Liked: 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdraw View Post

I don't fully understand the problem, but I do know that everyone I've talked to at Ceton fully expects to release a firmware update to fix the 1080i playback issue. In fact they were optimistic that it'd be fixed by now. No offense to anyone in this thread, but I think if it was an unworkable hardware limitation, Ceton would've determined that by now and told people. My guess is that the Ceton Dev crew is fully aware of the chip's limitations and had already engineered a solution, but the chip isn't responding as documented and they are working with Freecell to figure out why. Perhaps they are using function that wasn't fully tested, who knows.

There was a post earlier in this thread by wizziwigg stating that the clock timings of the chip weren't right to process 1080i. He/She had read some spec on freescale's site that indicated this to him/her but I don't know what it was all about and no direct link was provided.

Sammy2 is offline  
post #4145 of 7721 Old 12-08-2012, 05:40 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Sammy2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Right next to Wineville, CA
Posts: 9,835
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 115 Post(s)
Liked: 189
Here's another post discussing it. I don't know enough to know if what is being said is correct.

Sammy2 is offline  
post #4146 of 7721 Old 12-08-2012, 06:06 PM
AVS Special Member
 
bdraw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Tampa FL 33629
Posts: 2,543
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Yes, I read that comment. The reality is that no one wants to output as 1080i, so the chip will need to convert to 1080p or 720p. It seems very improbable to me that a modern chip like this one can't properly de-interlace 1080i to 1080p. We aren't talking about changing the frame rate, is is 30fps regardless.

Ben
How good could it be if it isn't HD?
Engadget HD
bdraw is offline  
post #4147 of 7721 Old 12-08-2012, 06:48 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Foxbat121's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: VA
Posts: 9,945
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 198 Post(s)
Liked: 230
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdraw View Post

Yes, I read that comment. The reality is that no one wants to output as 1080i, so the chip will need to convert to 1080p or 720p. It seems very improbable to me that a modern chip like this one can't properly de-interlace 1080i to 1080p. We aren't talking about changing the frame rate, is is 30fps regardless.

I think it is clear by now that while we are all beta testing Echos for Ceton, Ceton is beta testing for Freescale. The SoC is hot off the fab line and Freescale has a lot to do to firm up the basic software support.
Foxbat121 is online now  
post #4148 of 7721 Old 12-08-2012, 07:12 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mariob33's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Holbrook, Ma
Posts: 1,710
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 24
Send a message via Skype™ to mariob33
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdraw View Post

Yes, I read that comment. The reality is that no one wants to output as 1080i, so the chip will need to convert to 1080p or 720p. It seems very improbable to me that a modern chip like this one can't properly de-interlace 1080i to 1080p. We aren't talking about changing the frame rate, is is 30fps regardless.

why would you assume "The reality is that no one wants to output as 1080i"? I always prefer to output in same resolution as the broadcast. The scaler in my TV/VP IMO is far superior to anything the echo can and would be capable of.

In search of video bliss...
mariob33 is offline  
post #4149 of 7721 Old 12-08-2012, 07:24 PM
gsr
Oppo Beta Group
 
gsr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 7,494
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 103 Post(s)
Liked: 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdraw View Post

Yes, I read that comment. The reality is that no one wants to output as 1080i, so the chip will need to convert to 1080p or 720p. It seems very improbable to me that a modern chip like this one can't properly de-interlace 1080i to 1080p. We aren't talking about changing the frame rate, is is 30fps regardless.
There are 2 separate issues.

The first is that a lot of people are having issues with 1080i content just not playing well regardless of the selected output resolution (and I don't recall seeing anyone list 1080i as a supported output resolution for the Echo). This is the problem were people are saying the output is just completely unwatchable, makes them feel sea sick, etc. This is presumably an issue with how the Echo is handling deinterlacing and scaling or it could just be some sort of bandwidth issue similar to what's going on with high bitrate MKV files. Ceton should be able to fix this with a firmware update. If they can't fix it with a firmware update, it's clearly a pretty major problem with the Freescale chip.

The 2nd issue is that, at least according to documentation people have seen, the Freescale can't output 720p or 1080p at 59.94 fps, but just at 60.0 fps. This means there will be a skipped fame every once in a while and probably won't even be noticed by a lot of people. If this IS a hardware limitation, it obviously can't be fixed with a firmware update and is something people will have to live with if they want to stick with the Echo.
gsr is online now  
post #4150 of 7721 Old 12-08-2012, 07:39 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Foxbat121's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: VA
Posts: 9,945
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 198 Post(s)
Liked: 230
Quote:
Originally Posted by mariob33 View Post

why would you assume "The reality is that no one wants to output as 1080i"? I always prefer to output in same resolution as the broadcast. The scaler in my TV/VP IMO is far superior to anything the echo can and would be capable of.
Because all extenders output a fixed resolution so far. So, if you set to 1080i, your 720p channels will be interlaced into 1080i. 1080p is the best approach.
Foxbat121 is online now  
post #4151 of 7721 Old 12-08-2012, 08:00 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mariob33's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Holbrook, Ma
Posts: 1,710
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 24
Send a message via Skype™ to mariob33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mariob33 View Post

why would you assume "The reality is that no one wants to output as 1080i"? I always prefer to output in same resolution as the broadcast. The scaler in my TV/VP IMO is far superior to anything the echo can and would be capable of.
Because all extenders output a fixed resolution so far. So, if you set to 1080i, your 720p channels will be interlaced into 1080i. 1080p is the best approach.

yes 100% agree. I didn't know where the OP was going with the statement and I prefer my TV does any scaling to 1080p.

In search of video bliss...
mariob33 is offline  
post #4152 of 7721 Old 12-08-2012, 09:51 PM
Senior Member
 
reggie14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 224
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsr View Post

The 2nd issue is that, at least according to documentation people have seen, the Freescale can't output 720p or 1080p at 59.94 fps, but just at 60.0 fps. This means there will be a skipped fame every once in a while and probably won't even be noticed by a lot of people. If this IS a hardware limitation, it obviously can't be fixed with a firmware update and is something people will have to live with if they want to stick with the Echo.

The more I think about this the less sense it makes. My TVs have either a 60Hz or 120Hz refresh rate. So, even if the Echo did output at 59.94fps, wouldn't my TV still have to doubling a frame once in a while?
reggie14 is offline  
post #4153 of 7721 Old 12-08-2012, 10:15 PM
AVS Special Member
 
vladd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 5,466
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by reggie14 View Post

The more I think about this the less sense it makes. My TVs have either a 60Hz or 120Hz refresh rate. So, even if the Echo did output at 59.94fps, wouldn't my TV still have to doubling a frame once in a while?
On your TV (and most consumer electronic devices), 60hz native refresh rate is really 59.94hz.

It's why you have a 59hz option and 60hz option for monitors in Windows Display settings:
  1. 59hz = TV-Compatibility timing of 60hz (59.94 but shown as an integer in display settings) for use on TV sets.
  2. 60hz = true 60hz for monitors that support it.

Same applies for 23/24hz settings.
vladd is offline  
post #4154 of 7721 Old 12-08-2012, 10:29 PM
Senior Member
 
Roginator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Anchorage, AK, USA
Posts: 314
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
My TV only does 1080i, not 1080p.
Roginator is offline  
post #4155 of 7721 Old 12-08-2012, 10:51 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Sammy2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Right next to Wineville, CA
Posts: 9,835
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 115 Post(s)
Liked: 189
It is the documentation that wizziwigg was talking about that showed that the echo cannot do 59.94fps. This has not been refuted by anybody. I don't know about how to convert pixel clock speed to fps but there is no whole real integer number that does it so there must be a formula somewhere plus I could not find the documentation showing the pixel clock speed on Freescale's website.

Sammy2 is offline  
post #4156 of 7721 Old 12-09-2012, 06:52 AM
AVS Special Member
 
caeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 1,244
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 17
Check this thread out as someone was investigating a device similiar to the Ceton Echo using the same chip. Doesn't look good.

https://community.freescale.com/message/308922#308922

Samsung PN60F8500, Panasonic TH-42PD25U/P, Pioneer VSX-1018TXH-K, Oppo BDP-93, Aperion Audio 5T&5C, HSU STF-2, PS3, Wii, HTPC, SD Homerun Prime, Ceton Echo
caeguy is offline  
post #4157 of 7721 Old 12-09-2012, 07:20 AM
AVS Special Member
 
crbaldwin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 1,299
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

It is the documentation that wizziwigg was talking about that showed that the echo cannot do 59.94fps. This has not been refuted by anybody.

Yet another case where Ceton could easily squash this speculation by giving us the facts but for some reason they refuse to...
crbaldwin is online now  
post #4158 of 7721 Old 12-09-2012, 07:48 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Sammy2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Right next to Wineville, CA
Posts: 9,835
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 115 Post(s)
Liked: 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by caeguy View Post

Check this thread out as someone was investigating a device similiar to the Ceton Echo using the same chip. Doesn't look good.
https://community.freescale.com/message/308922#308922

No, it doesn't. If freescale said their chip conforms to the HDMI spec for this and it doesn't then they are going to have to make it right, don't you think? Whether they are as good as a company as ceton remains to be seen. I mean replace the chip and redo the whole thing for ceton as well as pay the costs of a replacement program for echos that we have right now. Proper playback of common frame rates is a necessity here.

Sammy2 is offline  
post #4159 of 7721 Old 12-09-2012, 07:53 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Sammy2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Right next to Wineville, CA
Posts: 9,835
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 115 Post(s)
Liked: 189
A freescale employee's response to the issue:
Quote:
I know there is an on going work to improve this. How it's an on-going work, I cannot detail it to you.

I would suggest you to enter a SR asking for it, or wait for some next release.

Sammy2 is offline  
post #4160 of 7721 Old 12-09-2012, 08:30 AM
Senior Member
 
tootal2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: eureka, mo
Posts: 328
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
they took 1080i out of the beta firmware. But you can still use 720p.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roginator View Post

My TV only does 1080i, not 1080p.
tootal2 is offline  
post #4161 of 7721 Old 12-09-2012, 09:14 AM
AVS Special Member
 
gtgray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,413
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 31 Post(s)
Liked: 52
I can't blame this fiasco on Freescale unless their specs indicated proper support for deinteralcing and standard US video frame rates, which doesn't appear to be the case. This looks like Ceton enigneering blew this big time by giving Freescale the design win. Clearly Ceton engineering knew virtually nothing about consumer video displays. Heaven forbid they have to recall all the Echos they sold and rework them with another chipset from Freescale or another vendor. Ceton could easily not survive a blunder of this proportion. Actually, I think you would have had to work really hard to make a mistake this serious.

Just another blank signature.
gtgray is online now  
post #4162 of 7721 Old 12-09-2012, 09:28 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Sammy2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Right next to Wineville, CA
Posts: 9,835
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 115 Post(s)
Liked: 189
Freescale said it is HDMI 1.4a compliant and that spec includes these frame rates from what I understand.

Sammy2 is offline  
post #4163 of 7721 Old 12-09-2012, 09:45 AM
AVS Special Member
 
caeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 1,244
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 17
As GSR mentioned, we're discussing 2 issues. I expect 1080i material to be worked out fairly quickly via firmware; both handling deinterlacing and output. The timing issue is another story and we could be limited by the hardware.

Samsung PN60F8500, Panasonic TH-42PD25U/P, Pioneer VSX-1018TXH-K, Oppo BDP-93, Aperion Audio 5T&5C, HSU STF-2, PS3, Wii, HTPC, SD Homerun Prime, Ceton Echo
caeguy is offline  
post #4164 of 7721 Old 12-09-2012, 09:56 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Sammy2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Right next to Wineville, CA
Posts: 9,835
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 115 Post(s)
Liked: 189
Aren't the timings and the de-interlacing related so we are talking about the same thing? If the timing is off, there's no choice but to skip a frame every 16.667 seconds which is noticeable.

Sammy2 is offline  
post #4165 of 7721 Old 12-09-2012, 11:00 AM
Senior Member
 
reggie14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 224
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

Aren't the timings and the de-interlacing related so we are talking about the same thing? If the timing is off, there's no choice but to skip a frame every 16.667 seconds which is noticeable.

No, I don't think they're related in any way. I'm not sure why you can't see the deinterlacing problem, but it's not caused by skipping frames.
reggie14 is offline  
post #4166 of 7721 Old 12-09-2012, 11:32 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Sammy2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Right next to Wineville, CA
Posts: 9,835
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 115 Post(s)
Liked: 189
I see what you are talking about mostly in live sports and it makes it nearly unwatchable. That is fixable with software but the other issue is getting the frame rate correct so that there isn't 6 skips a minute which is less annoying but also noticeable.

Sammy2 is offline  
post #4167 of 7721 Old 12-09-2012, 11:39 AM
AVS Special Member
 
caeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 1,244
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 17
Sammy2 - Do you think your HTPC handles timing perfectly?

Samsung PN60F8500, Panasonic TH-42PD25U/P, Pioneer VSX-1018TXH-K, Oppo BDP-93, Aperion Audio 5T&5C, HSU STF-2, PS3, Wii, HTPC, SD Homerun Prime, Ceton Echo
caeguy is offline  
post #4168 of 7721 Old 12-09-2012, 11:41 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Sammy2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Right next to Wineville, CA
Posts: 9,835
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 115 Post(s)
Liked: 189
No, but much, much better. I've tried to watch the Lakers on TWCSportsnet and had to shut off the echo and go with the HTPC. I have an nVidia GT-430 GPU too as the i3-550 HD2000 graphics wasn't cutting it at all.

Sammy2 is offline  
post #4169 of 7721 Old 12-09-2012, 12:45 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Sammy2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Right next to Wineville, CA
Posts: 9,835
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 115 Post(s)
Liked: 189
I am not converting my library. Low bit rate stuff does okay. High bit rate stuff doesn't. And TV content is still questionable.

Sammy2 is offline  
post #4170 of 7721 Old 12-09-2012, 02:35 PM
Advanced Member
 
skybolt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Stony Brook, NY
Posts: 564
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by captain_video View Post

You need to power cycle the Echo. After you see the connecting screen it will then display the ceton logo with a progress bar. When the firmware update is complete the Echo will reboot on its own and display the new firmware version on the connecting screen along with your IP address and MAC address.

I didn't have to do that, When you go in the echo extra screen, there should be an update button if your set for beta firmware and there is a new version available.
tstolze likes this.

skybolt is offline  
Closed Thread Home Theater Computers

Tags
Blu Ray Players

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off