Official Ceton Echo Extender Info Thread - Page 181 - AVS Forum
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post #5401 of 7721 Old 01-30-2013, 03:41 PM
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I couldn't have said that better.

M$ could have really had a winner with WMC and Win8 in the scenario you propose. They have enough clout to get the CableCos to better support CableCARD too I think.

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post #5402 of 7721 Old 01-30-2013, 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

I couldn't have said that better.

M$ could have really had a winner with WMC and Win8 in the scenario you propose. They have enough clout to get the CableCos to better support CableCARD too I think.

Maybe I'm a fool, but I'd still like to think it's possible. Though the fact the WMC of ANY KIND is completely absent (and un-upgradable, if that's a word) from Surface-RT was a major blow to my rosey optimism.

The opportunity to leverage WMC in the tablet/mobile environment... To deliver your entire multimedia library, movies, music, TV recordings, dare I dream a live TV tuner, would have given Microsoft something that it's competitors at Google and Apple would have had to scramble to match.

I *would have thought* the concept of "live TV" on your tablet would be very appealing to more than a *niche* market. So either I don't understand actual consumer trends, Microsoft is retarded, or there's gotta be something *at play* behind the scenes that makes major companies like Microsoft NOT WANT to give consumers something like that, and the reason to do so outweighs its potential sales boon for reasons that are not obvious to me...

If Surface RT had WMC, even without Live Tuner functionality, at $500, I'd already have one. As it is not, I'm already heavily invested in Apple's mobile ecosystem, and there's nothing to-date about Win8 to cause me to jump ship... I want to. I just need them to give me that reason.
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post #5403 of 7721 Old 01-30-2013, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by psuKinger View Post

The opportunity to leverage WMC in the tablet/mobile environment... To deliver your entire multimedia library, movies, music, TV recordings, dare I dream a live TV tuner, would have given Microsoft something that it's competitors at Google and Apple would have had to scramble to match.

Have you seen the demos of Google Fiber TV? Google already has that working, using a SageTV-based back-end with a Nexus 7 tablet. It's too bad it's probably never going to be developed into a retail product for those of us outside Kansas City.
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post #5404 of 7721 Old 01-30-2013, 05:54 PM
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Have you seen the demos of Google Fiber TV? Google already has that working, using a SageTV-based back-end with a Nexus 7 tablet. It's too bad it's probably never going to be developed into a retail product for those of us outside Kansas City.

Due to the economy Gig Internet is but a pipe dream for the masses. Probably 10 years at least.

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post #5405 of 7721 Old 01-30-2013, 06:00 PM
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Originally Posted by psuKinger View Post

Maybe I'm a fool, but I'd still like to think it's possible. Though the fact the WMC of ANY KIND is completely absent (and un-upgradable, if that's a word) from Surface-RT was a major blow to my rosey optimism.

The opportunity to leverage WMC in the tablet/mobile environment... To deliver your entire multimedia library, movies, music, TV recordings, dare I dream a live TV tuner, would have given Microsoft something that it's competitors at Google and Apple would have had to scramble to match.

The WMC team has long been disbanded. Clearly MS didn't see there is any potential there. According to their own statistics, only 8% of Win7 users use WMC and god knows how many of those 8% actually use TV functions of WMC which MS paid a lot of licensing fee for.
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I *would have thought* the concept of "live TV" on your tablet would be very appealing to more than a *niche* market. So either I don't understand actual consumer trends, Microsoft is retarded, or there's gotta be something *at play* behind the scenes that makes major companies like Microsoft NOT WANT to give consumers something like that, and the reason to do so outweighs its potential sales boon for reasons that are not obvious to me...

If Surface RT had WMC, even without Live Tuner functionality, at $500, I'd already have one. As it is not, I'm already heavily invested in Apple's mobile ecosystem, and there's nothing to-date about Win8 to cause me to jump ship... I want to. I just need them to give me that reason.

I think you have to understand that ppl that crave live TVs are just bounch of old farts smile.gif My teenage kids got all their TV viewing from internet/youtube. Companies now offer shows for that generation. All the major network shows can be view on line the very next day by the same networks who aired them. Many premium channels like HBO now also offer internet viewing and mobile apps for their shows. Who need WMC and who need a cablecard to view those shows anyway. It is a niche and will stay that way.
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post #5406 of 7721 Old 01-30-2013, 06:07 PM
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Due to the economy Gig Internet is but a pipe dream for the masses. Probably 10 years at least.

I don't mean gigabit internet- just the TV setup. Basically, SageTV v8. If they wanted, Google could turn that into a product. I'm not convinced they'd make money on it, but they could do it. Google probably wouldn't even need to scramble all that much. Support DTCP-IP on the storage box, TV box and in the Nexus 7 app. Then hook up the storage box to an HDHR Prime. I kind of wonder if they're already doing some form of content protection on those boxes.

Anyways, I agree it would have been cool to have WMC clients on Surface tablets connecting to a central WMC server. If Softsled ever came to be maybe we would have gotten that. I can't imagine Microsoft would change course now, though.
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post #5407 of 7721 Old 01-30-2013, 06:21 PM
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Agree to disagree, I guess. Live sports is DVR-proof. It's why, year-after-year, the bidding war for various sporting events vastly outpaces the nation's average inflation. Sure, SOME content is available via a number of means, but there's plenty that isn't as well.

I use DVR functionality for virtually everything that isn't sports or "background music"... I have Netflix, HBO Go, and Amazon Prime. And I'm a looooong way away from being an Old Fart. So I get it. But some content will NEVER make that transition away from *live*. People love to talk about *cutting the cord*, but if it really was so popular/simple, HBO wouldn't be so terrified to set out on their own with their app as an Internet service. The money is still in Cable/Satellite, and that ain't changing.

Just because WMC hasn't caught fire (yet) doesn't prove its not a great product/idea. Whole-house DVR is all the rage right now, Content-on-the-go is hot-and-in-demand, and an increasingly-popular trend is multiple-screens in one room. All things that CableCard/WMC is well-equipped to deliver.

Sure, it may never break out. It may remain a niche and die. But none of that changes the fact that Win8 won't be Microsoft's Saving Grace if it isn't able to either provide new/unique functionality (WMC or other) or under cut its competitors on price. And as of today, Win8 appears to do neither...
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post #5408 of 7721 Old 01-30-2013, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post

The WMC team has long been disbanded. Clearly MS didn't see there is any potential there. According to their own statistics, only 8% of Win7 users use WMC and god knows how many of those 8% actually use TV functions of WMC which MS paid a lot of licensing fee for.

I guess, although I suspect the number if higher if you count the number of people that used the mpeg2 and Dolby Digital decoders, rather than counting the WMC users. That's what MS had to buy licenses for.
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I think you have to understand that ppl that crave live TVs are just bounch of old farts smile.gif My teenage kids got all their TV viewing from internet/youtube.

Just to clarify, kids watch TV, they just watch it a different way. I don't think there's anything magical about Hulu/Youtube/HBOGo, etc. The issue is that they want to watch TV when they want, where they want, using the device. That often means from a laptop/tablet in their room, and rarely does it involve following the TV programming schedule.

I could be wrong, but I think they'd like the ability to watch TV from a tablet front-end, WMC back-end. That would give them more flexibility and more of their shows would be available. The major networks aren't completely comfortable with Internet streaming. Some really popular shows aren't streamed. American Idol comes to mind.
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post #5409 of 7721 Old 01-30-2013, 06:34 PM
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My 20yo kid watches "old fart" TV. He prefers to watch it in the HT for obvious reasons. biggrin.gif . He also streams music but not video too often. He knows better quality when he sees and hears it.

Internet streamed content is crap and he knows it.


Now, what about that echo?

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post #5410 of 7721 Old 01-30-2013, 06:58 PM
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I couldn't have said that better.

M$ could have really had a winner with WMC and Win8 in the scenario you propose. They have enough clout to get the CableCos to better support CableCARD too I think.

Really?

The business model for WMC never materialized. Microsoft, OEM's, A/V Dealers and CEDIA channel integrators invested over many years but could not make it a profit center. By 2007 it fell off Microsoft's agenda.

WMC today, wonderful as it still is, only exists by the graces of someone unknown at Microsoft for the small community of HTPC enthusiasts and tuner vendors that have expertise to self install, configure, integrate and support the product.
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post #5411 of 7721 Old 01-30-2013, 07:04 PM
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We are going deep off topic here. But I'm game...... I use a ton of WME's and am upgrading my HTPC. There are issues but one thing all these devices pretty much blow at is audio, especially high quality and lossless. Cablecard does 5.1 with lossy playback decently enough. Neflix, Hulu, Amazon-Prime and most others just sound like crap. I truly hope the masses don't dumb down streaming to the point that no one cares about audio quality anymore. WMC and WME's work for me, even though I am not a youngin anymore. Oh, the new Netflix Streaming HD service does not work here with comcast internet. So video is kind of poor as well via most streams.
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post #5412 of 7721 Old 01-30-2013, 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by t-c View Post

Really?

The business model for WMC never materialized. Microsoft, OEM's, A/V Dealers and CEDIA channel integrators invested over many years but could not make it a profit center. By 2007 it fell off Microsoft's agenda.

WMC today, wonderful as it still is, only exists by the graces of someone unknown at Microsoft for the small community of HTPC enthusiasts and tuner vendors that have expertise to self install, configure, integrate and support the product.

This is true, but it is essentially because the environment was **** until ceton / silicondust came along (3 years too late). You actually see people interested in HTPC for tv now (obv niche and small pop, all things considered) in much larger numbers than was ever the case before cheap CC tuners.

Basically the hardware wasn't there until after MS gave up on it.
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post #5413 of 7721 Old 01-30-2013, 07:21 PM
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It would be interesting to know who at Microsoft is still keeping WMC alive.
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post #5414 of 7721 Old 01-31-2013, 01:22 AM
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It would be interesting to know who at Microsoft is still keeping WMC alive.

I'm guessing Bill Gates.
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post #5415 of 7721 Old 01-31-2013, 04:02 AM
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It would be interesting to know who at Microsoft is still keeping WMC alive.

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I'm guessing Bill Gates.

You think so? He's probably got a account right here on avs and follows along and even posts..

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post #5416 of 7721 Old 01-31-2013, 04:10 AM
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I rarely watch live TV, and I am an old fart. tongue.gif I even record sporting events. I rarely start watching a football game until about 45 minutes after it's started. That allows me to zip past commercials and the half-time show so I can watch the game continuously. By the time I get to the final two minutes I'm usually caught up to real time. If the 'Skins and the Ravens are both on at the same time I'll switch back and forth between games without losing anything. I'll watch one team for the duration of a drive and then pause it. I'll switch over to the other game and so forth. I try not to stick with one game for too long because they flash the scores at the bottom of the screen and I want to avoid spoilers.

FWIW, I'd be surprised if Bill Gates still has anything to do with what goes on at Microsoft these days. Perhaps he'll let us know tonight when he's on the Daily Show with John Stewart. biggrin.gif
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post #5417 of 7721 Old 01-31-2013, 04:13 AM
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It would be interesting to know who at Microsoft is still keeping WMC alive.

My guess is they are keeping it alive until the next XBOX is a stand Alone DVR and they finish making the XBOX a living room PC that can supply all your entertainment needs. At a monthly charge of course... :-(

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post #5418 of 7721 Old 01-31-2013, 04:32 AM
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I rarely watch live TV, and I am an old fart. tongue.gif I even record sporting events. I rarely start watching a football game until about 45 minutes after it's started. That allows me to zip past commercials and the half-time show so I can watch the game continuously. By the time I get to the final two minutes I'm usually caught up to real time. If the 'Skins and the Ravens are both on at the same time I'll switch back and forth between games without losing anything. I'll watch one team for the duration of a drive and then pause it. I'll switch over to the other game and so forth. I try not to stick with one game for too long because they flash the scores at the bottom of the screen and I want to avoid spoilers.

FWIW, I'd be surprised if Bill Gates still has anything to do with what goes on at Microsoft these days. Perhaps he'll let us know tonight when he's on the Daily Show with John Stewart. biggrin.gif

Well, like you said, your an "old fart" wink.gif

My cell phone BLOWS UP with text messages during Penn State and Steelers games. IF I'm trying to DVR a game to watch later, I cant check Facebook, I have to be careful where i browse, where i turn the dial (if I'm in the car... Normally the situation if not watching live), basically, I have to *unplug* until I can get home to watch the game....

But I got into HTPC as a means to stop paying Comcast for so many DVR's and to feed my 3-screen Sports-Viewing room, so I usually take full advantage of all that content with the Live experience... It is why TV contracts for Sports sky-rocket, year-after-year,


Anyway, about this Echo... Day #2 in my *main viewing* room, and other than an occasional audio hiccup (which is usually fixed by just skipping back 7 seconds), no complaints! I think the picture is better than my First-Gen Xbox... Now I just need Ice Cream Sandwich and access to Netflix/HBO-Go!
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post #5419 of 7721 Old 01-31-2013, 07:01 AM
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I have a mini Rii keyboard that I use with my HTPC. When this is activated in the echo I will use it or another similar device. Note also that there are mouse commands that you can program into a Harmony. I don't use them ever but I programmed them in.

I tried to program in mouse commands also. Got sluggish, uneven, clumsy mouse movement using my Harmony 880, which I "learned" off an Ortek (and as I recalled tried the standard device commands as well) remote I bought (which works fine on my HTPC). I would be curious just how you got decent, smooth and reliable mouse commands into your Harmony, if in fact you did so.
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post #5420 of 7721 Old 01-31-2013, 07:24 AM
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I think it's impossible to get smooth reliable mouse commands on a harmony, learning from the ORtek pad. I learned them too, but I don't use them very often. ORtek is especially hard to learn because it's quite difficult to isolate just one of the many directions when pressing the pad. Add to that the fact the mouse commands use a very unusual and complex protocol which is different from the other ORtek commands.

However, since I can make my own protocols on my JP1 remotes, the ORtek mouse commands work perfectly on those. What might work is pronto hex. If you know how to import pronto hex on a harmony, I'll be glad to post the codes for the mouse commands. But I only have 8, not all 16.
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post #5421 of 7721 Old 01-31-2013, 08:55 AM
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As it pertains to "HTPC", and specifically Ceton/CableCard applications, is Win8 an improvement over Win7?

Because that's the topic at hand. If it's "better as a tablet", but a step backwards in terms of HTPC/CableCard/WMC applications, then for the purposes of this thread, it's a step backwards, and it shouldn't be surprising to hear HTPC/CableCard/WMC users grumbling about it.

Yes, it is better, especially for an htpc.
- It's a more efficient OS, so you can use a less powerful computer.
- It's even easier to setup, all the hardware drivers I needed work right out of the box.
- Storage spaces
- Easier to use backup option
- Stand By and Hybernate actually WORK w/o screwing things up
- Homegroup actually WORKS unlike in win7
- Powering the computer is much faster and loading into the Metro interface is a much better user experience then win7.


All in all, win8 on my htpc was the best experience I've had installing an MS OS and seems like they finally delivered an OS that works out of the box. The ONLY problem I've had so far is the Ceton Echo not being compatible. My Silicon Dust Prime setup was perfectly flawless in win8, which can't be said for win7...
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post #5422 of 7721 Old 01-31-2013, 09:02 AM
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I found that I had to use actual network drive paths rather than networked drives in MediaBrowser Configurator to get my library to show. How do you have it set up?

I finally moved the echo onto my htpc that uses my media server... You were right Sam, I had to type in the actual paths and put my login credentials for my media to show up.

That being said, now none of my mkv's work at all. They show a playback error, I'm guessing it's because I'm pulling them directly off my server and it doesn't have the codec support? Yikes... my win7 htpc has the Shark007 installed and works perfectly using the networked drives...
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post #5423 of 7721 Old 01-31-2013, 09:17 AM
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I think it's impossible to get smooth reliable mouse commands on a harmony, learning from the ORtek pad. I learned them too, but I don't use them very often. ORtek is especially hard to learn because it's quite difficult to isolate just one of the many directions when pressing the pad. Add to that the fact the mouse commands use a very unusual and complex protocol which is different from the other ORtek commands.

However, since I can make my own protocols on my JP1 remotes, the ORtek mouse commands work perfectly on those. What might work is pronto hex. If you know how to import pronto hex on a harmony, I'll be glad to post the codes for the mouse commands. But I only have 8, not all 16.

That is very kind of you, but I do not know how to do that importing. Perhaps you can refer me somewhere so I can bone up on that, as it might indeed be useful.
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post #5424 of 7721 Old 01-31-2013, 09:18 AM
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I finally moved the echo onto my htpc that uses my media server... You were right Sam, I had to type in the actual paths and put my login credentials for my media to show up.

That being said, now none of my mkv's work at all. They show a playback error, I'm guessing it's because I'm pulling them directly off my server and it doesn't have the codec support? Yikes... my win7 htpc has the Shark007 installed and works perfectly using the networked drives...

Do they have dts or any form of HD Audio?

I can only get lower bit rate files and constant bit rate files to play right now but I know that ceton is trying to solve this problem. It plagues the Xbox too to a lessor extent and may need a solution outside WMC via android ICS.

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post #5425 of 7721 Old 01-31-2013, 09:33 AM
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Yes, it is better, especially for an htpc.
- It's a more efficient OS, so you can use a less powerful computer.
- It's even easier to setup, all the hardware drivers I needed work right out of the box.
- Storage spaces
- Easier to use backup option
- Stand By and Hybernate actually WORK w/o screwing things up
- Homegroup actually WORKS unlike in win7
- Powering the computer is much faster and loading into the Metro interface is a much better user experience then win7.
.
What you said is your opinion about using it on HTPCs in general, but this is the Echo extender thread and for WMC it's much worse:

- It added nothing new to WMC, and took stuff away (extender support and boot into WMC)
- It costs way more than any Win7 Home Premium box you can buy off the street, because you have to get Win8 Pro and THEN add MC on top. MC was included with 7 at no extra cost.
- Metro just gets in your way if you're using it for WMC
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post #5426 of 7721 Old 01-31-2013, 09:40 AM
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- Metro just gets in your way if you're using it for WMC

I'm so tired of reading things like this. Metro is a full screen start menu. If you're using WMC, then WMC is up all the time anyway, and you're not going to see the start screen, so why does it matter?

I use W8 on both my home system and my work system, and quite comfortably. My usage pattern is identical to Windows 7, because the desktop, taskbar, and start functionality are exactly the same. I never clicked the start menu button in 7, because hitting the windows key and typing what I wanted to run is much, much faster. If you prefer clicking and going through menus, then the Start screen is not going to slow you down once you adjust to it - it'll be just as fast, or faster due to larger icons. Microsoft screwed themselves by trying to make people think the start screen was the primary interface of Windows 8, but it's not. Their marketing team should be fired for having created this impression, because it's absolutely wrecking sales of Windows 8.
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post #5427 of 7721 Old 01-31-2013, 09:48 AM
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I think what was implied is the ability to boot your HTPC directly into WMC in Win7 whereas in Win8, you need to open it up after booting. Or maybe I'm wrong. I haven't used Win8 because I have my system working great and it boots directly into WMC so why do I want to start over? I rarely even see Windows anymore on my HTPC.

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post #5428 of 7721 Old 01-31-2013, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by mcturkey View Post

I'm so tired of reading things like this. Metro is a full screen start menu. If you're using WMC, then WMC is up all the time anyway, and you're not going to see the start screen, so why does it matter?

I use W8 on both my home system and my work system, and quite comfortably. My usage pattern is identical to Windows 7, because the desktop, taskbar, and start functionality are exactly the same. I never clicked the start menu button in 7, because hitting the windows key and typing what I wanted to run is much, much faster. If you prefer clicking and going through menus, then the Start screen is not going to slow you down once you adjust to it - it'll be just as fast, or faster due to larger icons. Microsoft screwed themselves by trying to make people think the start screen was the primary interface of Windows 8, but it's not. Their marketing team should be fired for having created this impression, because it's absolutely wrecking sales of Windows 8.

^exactly...
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post #5429 of 7721 Old 01-31-2013, 09:52 AM
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Does WMC start full screen in Win8 upon boot or do you have to maximize it from the start screen? I honestly don't know as I am using Win7 right now.

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post #5430 of 7721 Old 01-31-2013, 09:52 AM
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God we need a new f/w on the echo to talk about..
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