Official Ceton Echo Extender Info Thread - Page 19 - AVS Forum
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post #541 of 7721 Old 05-15-2012, 03:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mmcxiiad View Post

Ok, so it can legally play blu-ray. My question is could it then stream that legal bluray content from the Q to the echo?

if kaleidescape set a precedent the only way i can imagine it working is if the disc is in the q. not really sure how applicable that is.

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post #542 of 7721 Old 05-15-2012, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by gsr View Post

That quote from Ceton doesn't mean that it's going to be literally a standalone Bluray player inside the box. It could still be using a software player, such as Arcsoft TMT, and satisfy their claim of being able to do all those functions. Standalone Bluray players and computers running software players do fall under slightly different sets of rules. Oddly the software players seem to have slightly less restrictions, so hoping for a software player is the best bet to have the flexibility of playing ISO's and/or folder structures.

I think that your point exactly describes what i am thinking. THE Q IS NOT A STAND ALONE BLU-RAY PLAYER. It is is a computer with an embeded OS. It will perform more like a computer then a off the shelf bluray player. The echo is designed to play the exact same content as the Q (or other windows media center). The perameters of what it can do will be more determined by the software not the hardware. So long as the hardware is capable of decoding (via native or emulated encoding), the ability of the box will be derived from the software.
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post #543 of 7721 Old 05-16-2012, 06:26 AM
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Does the Dune model that has a built in bluray player support playing bluray ISO rips with full menus over your network. I have a Dune D1 so I'm not sure about the other models and how they get around the whole Cinavia thing or supporting full menus in ISOs. If the Q falls into the same category as one of the Dunes, I could see it being able to support menus and not have to include Cinavia either.

Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand.
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post #544 of 7721 Old 05-16-2012, 06:57 AM
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I think the thing to remember is that stand alone players use a proprietary OS that is baked in with the firmware. Since no one has access to that firmware the ability to mod it is much more difficult and usually not worth it.

A computer, even if it has an embedded OS, is based on software that is far more common, open and has an existing base of third party apps - all allowing you to modify the capabilities of the device as shipped.
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post #545 of 7721 Old 05-16-2012, 07:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe 6 Pack View Post

Does the Dune model that has a built in bluray player support playing bluray ISO rips with full menus over your network. I have a Dune D1 so I'm not sure about the other models and how they get around the whole Cinavia thing or supporting full menus in ISOs. If the Q falls into the same category as one of the Dunes, I could see it being able to support menus and not have to include Cinavia either.

The Dune HD Smart, PH C300, and I think a player from Asus can all play isos and/or folders of bluray discs with full menu support. These are all existing players that have been in the market for some time. The higher end Oppo player could do it as well but they removed the functionality after being pressed to do so.

Assuming the respective companies want to release new models after this AACS imposed February deadline, I imagine they will have to remove the functionality as well. Even players like Sony and Samsung bluray players that allow mkv/m2ts/etc playback have it implemented on the remuxed files.

Cinavia isn't widespread [yet]. It is mostly just found in Sony/Columbia releases. I can't think of a single blockbuster that has been riddled with it.

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post #546 of 7721 Old 05-16-2012, 07:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mmcxiiad View Post


A computer, even if it has an embedded OS, is based on software that is far more common, open and has an existing base of third party apps - all allowing you to modify the capabilities of the device as shipped.

That's what you think it is. And maybe you're right. But at what point does it quit being a computer with software on it and it becomes a consumer electronics device, especially in the eyes of the lawyers?

The Logitech Revue and Boxee Box both run embedded versions of Linux (actually I think pretty much every bluray player does). Those two devices even have x86 Intel processors. You probably don't think of them as htpcs, but I think your logic would apply to them (embedded os, common software -android and xbmc, third party apps.

Lots of WMC users would love to see bluray playback baked into it the way dvd playback is. But at this point, I think that would hamper it. I imagine in the next updates of PowerDVD and TMT they will have to enforce the new DRM measures. If Win8 WMC had it baked it, I bet they would too. That would make even playing a remuxed mkv file impossible in WMC. So on the Q, is bluray playback considered baked into a consumer electronics device or is it a separate piece of software on an htpc? Will be very interesting to follow.

As it stands now, even if the new DRM watermarks were enforced by software patches to TMT and PowerDVD, the default WMC player would still be able to play the remuxed files.

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post #547 of 7721 Old 05-16-2012, 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by mmcxiiad View Post

I suppose I agree that if there was no other way, then mkv's are better then nothing.

No. The better option (short of full menus) for them is to support .mkv *in addition to* .m2ts and native BR Folder Structures.

It is fairly trivial to add "Lite" menus to a player. Give the person the option to load a full BR folder structure, default to the longest video stream or playlist (in the case of seemless branching) and then give the viewer the menu option to pick any other video stream if they want.

This is doable right now without bothering to handle the full BR menus (or getting the blessing of the BR-gestapo) and offers significantly more capabilities than just strictly loading a single .mkv (or .m2ts.)

But just make sure the forced subtitles work correctly. Every time!

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post #548 of 7721 Old 05-16-2012, 08:09 AM
 
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Originally Posted by pittsoccer33 View Post

Lots of WMC users would love to see bluray playback baked into it the way dvd playback is. But at this point, I think that would hamper it. I imagine in the next updates of PowerDVD and TMT they will have to enforce the new DRM measures. If Win8 WMC had it baked it, I bet they would too. That would make even playing a remuxed mkv file impossible in WMC. So on the Q, is bluray playback considered baked into a consumer electronics device or is it a separate piece of software on an htpc? Will be very interesting to follow.

As it stands now, even if the new DRM watermarks were enforced by software patches to TMT and PowerDVD, the default WMC player would still be able to play the remuxed files.

More people will just buy AnyDVD HD to play the movies they bought.
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post #549 of 7721 Old 05-16-2012, 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Suntan View Post

No. The better option (short of full menus) for them is to support .mkv *in addition to* .m2ts and native BR Folder Structures.
[snip]
But just make sure the forced subtitles work correctly. Every time!

I agree completely. I had an awful time trying to find a decent workaround to let me play back Avatar on my HD200 before Sage supported PGS subtitles. Though, I suspect it would be a lot easier now, since recent Handbrake nightlies added PGS subtitle support.

Still, back then I was able to find workarounds to let me burn in subtitles to Handbrake re-encodes (which I don't ordinarily do), but I was never able to get the resulting video files to play back smoothly. That's why I'd still really like to see PGS subtitle support- particularly with the forced subtitles.

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Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

More people will just buy AnyDVD HD to play the movies they bought.

Just to be clear, AnyDVD will not remove Cinavia watermarks.

I haven't really cared about the Q, just the Echo, so I wasn't aware the Q had a built-in blu-ray drive. That makes me somewhat concerned. It sure seems like the software player in the Q will have to support Cinavia. That makes me a little more nervous that the Echo might also get Cinavia. It's certainly not a given- I assume the Echo runs an embedded linux kernel, rather than Windows Embedded, so the software on the Echo will be quite different. But until this point I just assumed Ceton wasn't going to avoid the whole blu-ray licensing mess.
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post #550 of 7721 Old 05-16-2012, 08:42 AM
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I'm also only really interested in the Echo. If it comes in at the $99-$150 range I would love to get one if it would be possible to use the single tuner I have in my HTPC in the living room and watch local HDTV via wireless N on my network when I'm not using the main HTPC.

I only have a 30 inch HDTV without a built-in tuner in my bedroom so I would love to have the capability to wake up late on Sundays and turn on the Echo and watch the local NFL pregame shows instead of having to get out of bed and go downstairs. Streaming bluray rips would be a nice bonus but until I try out a MOCA adapter and get better speeds than I do with my powerline adapters I'm not too concerned with it.

Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand.
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post #551 of 7721 Old 05-16-2012, 04:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe 6 Pack View Post

I'm also only really interested in the Echo. If it comes in at the $99-$150 range I would love to get one if it would be possible to use the single tuner I have in my HTPC in the living room and watch local HDTV via wireless N on my network when I'm not using the main HTPC.

I only have a 30 inch HDTV without a built-in tuner in my bedroom so I would love to have the capability to wake up late on Sundays and turn on the Echo and watch the local NFL pregame shows instead of having to get out of bed and go downstairs. Streaming bluray rips would be a nice bonus but until I try out a MOCA adapter and get better speeds than I do with my powerline adapters I'm not too concerned with it.

There's no wireless capability on the Q or Echo...you'll need a MOCA or powerline adapter to use it either way if you don't have ethernet to your bedroom.
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post #552 of 7721 Old 05-17-2012, 05:30 AM
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Originally Posted by motz2k1 View Post

Yep over the next few weeks expect to hear some more announcements as we finalize details on things. So just hang in there.

It's been two weeks. Can I be impatient yet?
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post #553 of 7721 Old 05-17-2012, 05:36 AM
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It's been two weeks. Can I be impatient yet?

ofcourse, we are all impatiently waiting. though we are probably going to have to wait some more.
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post #554 of 7721 Old 05-17-2012, 05:48 AM
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Originally Posted by reggie14 View Post

I haven't really cared about the Q, just the Echo, so I wasn't aware the Q had a built-in blu-ray drive. That makes me somewhat concerned. It sure seems like the software player in the Q will have to support Cinavia. That makes me a little more nervous that the Echo might also get Cinavia. It's certainly not a given- I assume the Echo runs an embedded linux kernel, rather than Windows Embedded, so the software on the Echo will be quite different. But until this point I just assumed Ceton wasn't going to avoid the whole blu-ray licensing mess.

I got concerned too when I read that. imo, if ceton sells a licensed br player, than that kills all chances of streaming br (either discs or rips).

I see licensed br playback as a huge negative. I really hope I'm proven wrong.
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post #555 of 7721 Old 05-17-2012, 05:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jcruse View Post

There's no wireless capability on the Q or Echo...you'll need a MOCA or powerline adapter to use it either way if you don't have ethernet to your bedroom.

You "could" use a wifi ethernet bridge. Kind of looks like a router. You plug ethernet into it and into your nonwifi device. It then acts like a receiver/transmitter for the wifi signal and passes it along into your devices ethernet port.

I had one sitting around and when I got a cable card tuner I moved my 360 into my bedroom and set up the bridge with it. 10 minutes later I was drilling holes and running cable. The menus lagged to the point it was unusable.

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post #556 of 7721 Old 05-17-2012, 06:07 AM
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Originally Posted by jcruse View Post

There's no wireless capability on the Q or Echo...you'll need a MOCA or powerline adapter to use it either way if you don't have ethernet to your bedroom.


Oh ok, thanks. I canceled DirecTV and still have their coaxial wiring throughout my house. However, I switched to Xfinity from DSL as well and they only installed one outlet by my home theater setup where I have my router and the cable modem. Can I connect the ethernet outlet of one of the MOCA adapters to my router and connect the coaxial to the old unused DirecTV wiring and then connect another MOCA unit upstairs and get connectivity or do I need to connect the coaxial unit directly to my Xfinity internet connection somehow?

Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand.
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post #557 of 7721 Old 05-17-2012, 07:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derek K. View Post


I got concerned too when I read that. imo, if ceton sells a licensed br player, than that kills all chances of streaming br (either discs or rips).

I see licensed br playback as a huge negative. I really hope I'm proven wrong.

Yup! My plan for echo would be a whole house LiveTV DVR solution. I would hope to stream mkv's too but I do have a hacked $60 Patriot Box Office that does that with full HD Audio but is a bit slow to load network files and start playback.. not enough time to make popcorn but slow enough to bug the heck out of me. It is relegated to the loft for my son to use when he comes home to visit from college.

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post #558 of 7721 Old 05-17-2012, 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Joe 6 Pack View Post

Oh ok, thanks. I canceled DirecTV and still have their coaxial wiring throughout my house. However, I switched to Xfinity from DSL as well and they only installed one outlet by my home theater setup where I have my router and the cable modem. Can I connect the ethernet outlet of one of the MOCA adapters to my router and connect the coaxial to the old unused DirecTV wiring and then connect another MOCA unit upstairs and get connectivity or do I need to connect the coaxial unit directly to my Xfinity internet connection somehow?

Yes, your plan sounds good.
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post #559 of 7721 Old 05-17-2012, 07:42 AM
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Cool, now if the Echo can come in at the $99 pricepoint I will be in a good position to consider buying one as well as a MOCA set which I saw on Amazon for $140.

Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand.
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post #560 of 7721 Old 05-17-2012, 07:44 AM
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Excuse my ignorance but MOCA is?

Guess maybe I don't need one or I'd know wht it is..

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post #561 of 7721 Old 05-17-2012, 07:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derek K. View Post

I got concerned too when I read that. imo, if ceton sells a licensed br player, than that kills all chances of streaming br (either discs or rips).

I see licensed br playback as a huge negative. I really hope I'm proven wrong.

windows computers can legally play blu-rays. add some extra software in the mix and you can play ISOs/rips. This whole thing is more about how open the architecture will be on the Q & echo or how Ceton monitors what apps can be made with the API. If they have a closed model where only apps approved by ceton can be installed, then we are screwed. If there is some way to side load apps, then someone will figure out a way to bypass this.
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post #562 of 7721 Old 05-17-2012, 07:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

Excuse my ignorance but MOCA is?

Guess maybe I don't need one or I'd know wht it is..

data over coaxial cable. That is the protocol that cable modems use. You can also get a ethernet to coaxial converter.
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post #563 of 7721 Old 05-17-2012, 07:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

Excuse my ignorance but MOCA is?

Guess maybe I don't need one or I'd know wht it is..

I was wondering the same thing. What is MOCA? I hate acronyms.
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post #564 of 7721 Old 05-17-2012, 07:57 AM
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Well I googled it so let me google it for you.

Multimedia Over Coaxial Alliance

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post #565 of 7721 Old 05-17-2012, 07:58 AM
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Isn't it cheaper to just pull ethernet than pop down $$$ for some converter though?

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post #566 of 7721 Old 05-17-2012, 08:03 AM - Thread Starter
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moca is a way to use the existing coaxial cable in your home instead of running ethernet cable.

so if you have coaxial cable sticking out of the wall in your bedroom, and also have it sticking out of the wall in your living room, you should be able to use that piece of wire for home networking with the right adapters.

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post #567 of 7721 Old 05-17-2012, 08:04 AM
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MOCA Info. Basically, it allows one to use existing coax cable run throughout the house as a substitute for CAT5 / CAT6 network cables. The maximum speed depends on which version of MOCA the device supports, the cable length, and presumably the quality / type of coax cable that's used, but it's capable of better than 100Mbps and even close to 1Gbps performance with the latest MOCA adapters. It should be a LOT more reliable than trying to stream high bandwidth media via wireless.
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post #568 of 7721 Old 05-17-2012, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

Isn't it cheaper to just pull ethernet than pop down $$$ for some converter though?

That depends on the situation. Some houses are setup so that pulling cables is easy, in which case it's definitely what I would recommend doing. In other houses, pulling cables is next to impossible. And if you're renting, the landlord may not be thrilled if the renter starts drilling holes in the walls, floors, etc.
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post #569 of 7721 Old 05-17-2012, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

Isn't it cheaper to just pull ethernet than pop down $$$ for some converter though?

Like anything else, it is an option. Obviously, CAT5/5e/6/etc is better. But as others have pointed out, sometimes that isn't an option due to your living situation.

Also, for some people simple=better. A couple of MOCA adapters may be a lot more simple then pulling cable through walls. It may be nothing more then I don't want to deal with it when it isn't going to gain me a huge difference.
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post #570 of 7721 Old 05-17-2012, 08:23 AM
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I'm not sure how much an electrician would charge to wire additional ethernet outlets and run wire to upstairs in my house and I don't think I'm up to doing it to myself so I've been trying different wireless standards, powerline over ethernet, and finally I think I will get around to trying MOCA if I ever decide to start streaming stuff that is beyond the capability of wireless N to my bedroom or get the Echo to stream live TV over my network. I would have tried it earlier but I had DirecTV which did not work with MOCA so I was unable to and tried powerline over ethernet instead which didn't work due to the outlets in my house being AFCI outlets which negatively affected throughput.

Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand.
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