Official Ceton Echo Extender Info Thread - Page 190 - AVS Forum
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post #5671 of 7721 Old 02-09-2013, 09:55 AM
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I have an 2006 HP9300T Quad 9550 with an ATI digital wonder cable card ready system. The system was bought in 2006 an had to be cablelabs certified.
The cablelabs certification is very unforgiving and was for the whole computor,making it almost imposible to change anything without losing recorded content.
I was wondering how the new cards work? Can you change the whole computer without losing recorded content from HBO?
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post #5672 of 7721 Old 02-09-2013, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by 6athome View Post

I have an 2006 HP9300T Quad 9550 with an ATI digital wonder cable card ready system. The system was bought in 2006 an had to be cablelabs certified.
The cablelabs certification is very unforgiving and was for the whole computor,making it almost imposible to change anything without losing recorded content.
I was wondering how the new cards work? Can you change the whole computer without losing recorded content from HBO?

No, this has not changed. Get caught up on those recordings and then make the changes.
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post #5673 of 7721 Old 02-09-2013, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Shark007 View Post

IMO, the #1 fallacy of all extenders to date is not supporting subtitles with local file playback. If the echo could support subtitles, it would own the current market. Currently, if you must have subtitles with extender playback, you need to hardcode the subtitles into the video so that they are part of the video and not a separate entity. As for audio support, again, if the echo could manage native decoding and possible even passthrough for popular audio formats it would once again, own the market.

+∞

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post #5674 of 7721 Old 02-09-2013, 10:46 AM
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Well....there's "extenders" i.e. Media Center extenders, and there are "streaming boxes" (lots of em).

In an extender, the primary function is extending the Media Center functionality. Streamers do a lot of things EXCEPT that.

Which one are we comparing the Echo to?
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post #5675 of 7721 Old 02-09-2013, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by kapone View Post

Well....there's "extenders" i.e. Media Center extenders, and there are "streaming boxes" (lots of em).

In an extender, the primary function is extending the Media Center functionality. Streamers do a lot of things EXCEPT that.

Which one are we comparing the Echo to?

The bar was set by Sage's HD-300. That is what I want out of that Echo and it can't even meet that level of performance.
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post #5676 of 7721 Old 02-09-2013, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Biggen_PCB View Post

The bar was set by Sage's HD-300. That is what I want out of that Echo and it can't even meet that level of performance.

You're talking about an extender that was for a whole different software environment. Compare it to other WMC extenders at least.
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post #5677 of 7721 Old 02-09-2013, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by staknhalo View Post

You're talking about an extender that was for a whole different software environment. Compare it to other WMC extenders at least.

That is the problem why settle for half a glass when we want a full glass.
Like it or not Sage TV set the bar and MCE gave up because of the content providers insistence on a non workable DRM scheme.
Greed corrupts all good things.
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post #5678 of 7721 Old 02-09-2013, 12:14 PM
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Okay. Sage is one thing. Streamers are another.

Getting copy protected content in other locations and having the functionality of Sage or a streamer is a completely different thing.. We want it all and we want it now! That seems to be the cry of most. I can patiently wait..

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post #5679 of 7721 Old 02-09-2013, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by davefre99 View Post

That is the problem why settle for half a glass when we want a full glass.
Like it or not Sage TV set the bar and MCE gave up because of the content providers insistence on a non workable DRM scheme.
Greed corrupts all good things.

I'm not saying there isn't room for improvement, but maybe you guys should go back to your SageTV setups then until you're happy where the Echo is and decide to switch to WMC.

Greed corrupts all things.......like how Sage got bought out and shut down shop? Microsoft might have stagnated WMC, but at least it's not dead. Be thankful Ceton is still developing for the WMC environment and have some goddamn patience with them. Or go build your own perfect extender/platform.
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post #5680 of 7721 Old 02-09-2013, 01:23 PM
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For the record I still have a fully functional SAGE tv server setup. I would love to stick with Sage but as you state they also succumbed to greed and were bought out by Google so I have to look for alternatives if I want to watch protected content on anything but my Cable( Verizon Fios) provider DVR box or Tivo long term. Yes I was spoiled by how well Sage did nearly all things and will never be happy with anything less. Ceton promised to do that and has not delivered on its promise. I love that they are are still working on it but patience is not my virtue and there lack of substantive information on there future plans is not giving me a warm fuzzy feeling. They have had plenty of time to resolve there issues and it is now time to just show me the beef.

I am not saying I am giving up hope that Ceton will someday deliver because at this time without them there is not much else but Xbox to turn too but I will never be satisfied with a glass half full. So for now I use both Sage & MCE/Ceton
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post #5681 of 7721 Old 02-09-2013, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by staknhalo View Post

I'm not saying there isn't room for improvement, but maybe you guys should go back to your SageTV setups then until you're happy where the Echo is and decide to switch to WMC.

I wish I could but I sold as soon as I found out it would be a dead end (really regretting that now).

As to patience, after 3 months in it is not unreasonable to expect a product to be able to match playback of nearly 3-year-old technology (Sage HD300). It is clearly not a limitation of the WMC extender system so what's the hold up?
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post #5682 of 7721 Old 02-09-2013, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by crbaldwin View Post

I wish I could but I sold as soon as I found out it would be a dead end (really regretting that now).

As to patience, after 3 months in it is not unreasonable to expect a product to be able to match playback of nearly 3-year-old technology (Sage HD300). It is clearly not a limitation of the WMC extender system so what's the hold up?

Source?

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post #5683 of 7721 Old 02-09-2013, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

Source?

I can play standard-def MKV files on the Echo by having a splitter on the server. The video and audio for Blu-ray MKV rips are sent fine to the Echo, it just can't yet play them and we know the chip is capable.
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post #5684 of 7721 Old 02-09-2013, 02:47 PM
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Even when bypassing splitters altogether and using M2TS with h.264/AC-3:DD5.1 (per ceton) nearly all of my 1080p rips will hit a particularly "difficult" scene (high detail, high motion) and the audio stuttering and macro blocking will begin, and from that point on it won't recover. (pausing, FF, skip forward.... nothing will get it back to a watchable state)

What this tells looks like to me is WMC is delivering the audio and video streams to the extender just fine, (since they will often play an hour or more before displaying the above behavior) so the problem either lies with the networking subsystem being able to deliver the peak bitrate scenes or that the video subsystem is unable to process them. Intuitively I would think a network problem would be easier to recover from, which makes me think it is a problem with decoding the video.

Considering the history of the echo to this point in regards to live video, I'm inclined to point at the video processor and say it is the problem. I'm still optimistic that Ceton will get it ironed out, but I'm hoping I don't have to remux all of my videos.

RAID protection is only for failed drives. That's it. It's no replacement for a proper backup.
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post #5685 of 7721 Old 02-09-2013, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by crbaldwin View Post

I can play standard-def MKV files on the Echo by having a splitter on the server. The video and audio for Blu-ray MKV rips are sent fine to the Echo, it just can't yet play them and we know the chip is capable.

So that is the hardware of the echo but not necessarily the software that needs to run in the WMC environment. The latter is what I would call the "WMC extender system" with the former being the echo itself.

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post #5686 of 7721 Old 02-09-2013, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by ajhieb View Post

Even when bypassing splitters altogether and using M2TS with h.264/AC-3:DD5.1 (per ceton) nearly all of my 1080p rips will hit a particularly "difficult" scene (high detail, high motion) and the audio stuttering and macro blocking will begin, and from that point on it won't recover. (pausing, FF, skip forward.... nothing will get it back to a watchable state)

What this tells looks like to me is WMC is delivering the audio and video streams to the extender just fine, (since they will often play an hour or more before displaying the above behavior) so the problem either lies with the networking subsystem being able to deliver the peak bitrate scenes or that the video subsystem is unable to process them. Intuitively I would think a network problem would be easier to recover from, which makes me think it is a problem with decoding the video.

Considering the history of the echo to this point in regards to live video, I'm inclined to point at the video processor and say it is the problem. I'm still optimistic that Ceton will get it ironed out, but I'm hoping I don't have to remux all of my videos.

I simply am not going to do that at all.

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post #5687 of 7721 Old 02-09-2013, 03:05 PM
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So that is the hardware of the echo but not necessarily the software that needs to run in the WMC environment. The latter is what I would call the "WMC extender system" with the former being the echo itself.

So, you're saying the firmware on the Echo itself responsible for the actual video/audio playback is inhibited by WMC and therefore indirectly controlled by Microsoft? If that's the case, I will just give up now...
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post #5688 of 7721 Old 02-09-2013, 03:44 PM
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So, you're saying the firmware on the Echo itself responsible for the actual video/audio playback is inhibited by WMC and therefore indirectly controlled by Microsoft? If that's the case, I will just give up now...

I think it is going to take an alternate solution to maybe launch a player that can support the playback, but who knows. I am not a programmer. I have no idea about the internals of the echo or WMC.

Maybe a dual boot or something with an android based player. We haven't heard anything about that since November.

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post #5689 of 7721 Old 02-09-2013, 03:52 PM
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I think it is going to take an alternate solution to maybe launch a player that can support the playback, but who knows. I am not a programmer. I have no idea about the internals of the echo or WMC.

Maybe a dual boot or something with an android based player. We haven't heard anything about that since November.

Agreed. WMC is a dead-end for getting full playback support. Only way to do it is with another app, or a transcoding plugin.

I am using a transcoding plugin right now, and the results are very good - but it totally takes over my PC's processor and uses a ton of network bandwidth.

xnappo
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post #5690 of 7721 Old 02-09-2013, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

I think it is going to take an alternate solution to maybe launch a player that can support the playback, but who knows. I am not a programmer. I have no idea about the internals of the echo or WMC.

Maybe a dual boot or something with an android based player. We haven't heard anything about that since November.

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Originally Posted by xnappo View Post

Agreed. WMC is a dead-end for getting full playback support. Only way to do it is with another app, or a transcoding plugin.

I am using a transcoding plugin right now, and the results are very good - but it totally takes over my PC's processor and uses a ton of network bandwidth.

xnappo
I'm gonna be the (sole) dissenter here...I guess. smile.gif See, ALL of the problems that we have been discussing, are because of the crippled "extender" model. If a regular HTPC with WMC can be an extender as well, every single one of these problems goes away. Think about it for a second. All these extenders are using specialized chipsets and video chips, and yet cannot achieve perfect playback. A $25 video card (sometimes even less than that) in a run of the mill PC will play back EVERY single file format you throw at it, and within WMC. The problem is the el-cheapo hardware in these extenders.

WMC isn't the problem, the extender model is. I wonder if something's brewing over in lala land at MS, with WIndows 8 and RemoteFx.... (A windows 8 to windows 8 RDP session is a RemoteFx session by default, you don't need Server 2012 or Hyper-V or VMs and what not)
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post #5691 of 7721 Old 02-09-2013, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by xnappo View Post

Agreed. WMC is a dead-end for getting full playback support. Only way to do it is with another app, or a transcoding plugin.

I am using a transcoding plugin right now, and the results are very good - but it totally takes over my PC's processor and uses a ton of network bandwidth.

xnappo

What is that? I'm pretty sure my i3-550 will choke on that and playback in the HT at the same time as there isn't enough cores.

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post #5692 of 7721 Old 02-09-2013, 04:15 PM
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I'm gonna be the (sole) dissenter here...I guess. smile.gif See, ALL of the problems that we have been discussing, are because of the crippled "extender" model. If a regular HTPC with WMC can be an extender as well, every single one of these problems goes away. Think about it for a second. All these extenders are using specialized chipsets and video chips, and yet cannot achieve perfect playback. A $25 video card (sometimes even less than that) in a run of the mill PC will play back EVERY single file format you throw at it, and within WMC. The problem is the el-cheapo hardware in these extenders.

WMC isn't the problem, the extender model is. I wonder if something's brewing over in lala land at MS, with WIndows 8 and RemoteFx.... (A windows 8 to windows 8 RDP session is a RemoteFx session by default, you don't need Server 2012 or Hyper-V or VMs and what not)

That would be a $400 extender wouldn't it? People complain about $180 for the echo.

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post #5693 of 7721 Old 02-09-2013, 04:17 PM
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That would be a $400 extender wouldn't it? People complain about $180 for the echo.
You don't need a full Windows 8 machine for an RDP session. You need a Zero client.... smile.gif
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post #5694 of 7721 Old 02-09-2013, 04:20 PM
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You just said it is because of cheap hardware and then you said you don't need a full Windows machine. So is it at $300 then? People still balk at sub-$200. That is my point.

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post #5695 of 7721 Old 02-09-2013, 04:32 PM
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You don't need a full Windows 8 machine for an RDP session. You need a Zero client.... smile.gif

This is pretty much exactly what should happen, but it won't. Microsoft wants to get everyone into an Xbox 360/720 and pull everyone into their ecosystem. Ifthe Xbox 720 ends up using x86 as is rumored, and if it ends up running a modified Windows 8, there is a chance that we'll see whole-home DVR capabilities alongside excellent media playback, all within one unified interface. I'm not really going to hold my breath, though.

Zero clients would be absolutely perfect, with everything running on a central server. Perhaps if/when someone develops a PC client for DTCP-IP we'll see it.
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post #5696 of 7721 Old 02-09-2013, 04:41 PM
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You just said it is because of cheap hardware and then you said you don't need a full Windows machine. So is it at $300 then? People still balk at sub-$200. That is my point.
You're looking at it wrong. A zero client with a $25 (in reality, maybe $5-10, as $25 is the retail price) would probably cost less than an extender, but that's not the objective. The objective is to not have a crippled extender model.
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post #5697 of 7721 Old 02-09-2013, 04:44 PM
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This is pretty much exactly what should happen, but it won't. Microsoft wants to get everyone into an Xbox 360/720 and pull everyone into their ecosystem. Ifthe Xbox 720 ends up using x86 as is rumored, and if it ends up running a modified Windows 8, there is a chance that we'll see whole-home DVR capabilities alongside excellent media playback, all within one unified interface. I'm not really going to hold my breath, though.

Zero clients would be absolutely perfect, with everything running on a central server. Perhaps if/when someone develops a PC client for DTCP-IP we'll see it.
They already are in their ecosystem with WMC. Microsoft just wants to sell more hardware in order to achieve something that doesn't require their hardware.
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post #5698 of 7721 Old 02-09-2013, 04:48 PM
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I simply am not going to do that at all.

I don't plan on remuxing all 1500 movies I have either. I did however remux some of them in an effort to see what works and what doesn't work on the Echo, and of the problem lies with a splitter or with something else.

At least I can say with confidence, with splitters taken out of the equation, media playback still isn't at an acceptable level right now.

RAID protection is only for failed drives. That's it. It's no replacement for a proper backup.
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post #5699 of 7721 Old 02-09-2013, 04:49 PM
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BTW, kapone, would you happen to be the E38 kapone?

RAID protection is only for failed drives. That's it. It's no replacement for a proper backup.
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post #5700 of 7721 Old 02-09-2013, 04:50 PM
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Pretty sure there's MS licensing fees for the extenders too. It seems that the echo is a Zero Client, so to speak.. I haven't even heard of them before because they are not deployed in my workplace (yet?). The thing is that what can be done is limited by the WMC environment. The only reason to stay in that environment is for playback of copy once content. Some of us, like me, have a lot of that. Otherwise, everything else can be outside the WMC environment.

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