Official Ceton Echo Extender Info Thread - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 7721 Old 01-12-2012, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by whiteboy714 View Post

Mkv support and media browser and these things could be epic. Well lets see the price first I guess.

If this natively supports Video_TS folders, and can port Media Browser, I'll buy one in a heartbeat..
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post #62 of 7721 Old 01-12-2012, 05:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scl23enn4m3 View Post

I'm all for excitement, but do we even know what hardware it's running? What is everyone basing their price speculation on?

Eric's comments from the InfiniTV thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by erickotz View Post

Rest assured that we understand format compatibility is important, and we fully expect to be compatible with all popular formats (ie, stuff that does not play on the 360 should play on us)

"all popular formats" leads me to hope that it will support at least MKV with native Blu-ray audio/video.

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Originally Posted by gsr View Post

Seriously, there really isn't enough information about the product yet for any of us to have a good idea of what it's worth. That value might change radically once we know things like exactly what media formats are supported, what it has for horsepower, how responsive the UI is, how good the video output quality is, etc.

Well Eric's comments have given us indication that it should be better than the Xbox, which granted isn't necessarilly saying much, Ceton seems to be a company that understands what HTPC users want (look how popular their CableCard stuff is), so his comments leave me optimistic about it.

The other things are yet to be seen of course, but really, format support is what's been the showstopper, at least for me, for Windows Media Center extenders, and given Eric's comments it sounds like they plan to address that.

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Some people certainly have a maximum amount of money they'd be willing to pay regardless of some of the answers,

Well I know I predicated my max value on it actually supporting BD-quality audio/video.

Quote:


...but the product may cost more to manufacture than some are willing to pay and we can't reasonably expect Ceton to sell it at a loss .

It's not rocket science, SageTV, a tiny little company, managed to get extenders manufactured that they could sell for $150 that played pretty much every media format of any sort of common use and with a niche UI and good UI performance (OK, I'll probably get flamed for that one, no it wasn't as blingy or quick as an HTPC that costs 4-5x as much ). And that was over a year ago, today we've got another generation newer SOCs to build off so I really don't see cost being a barrier on this sort of thing.

Eric,

This reminds me, one thing that I place a high value on is native output, ie the ability to switch output resolution to match the source you're playing (ie 480i for DVDs, 1080i for 1080i TV, 1080p24 for Blu-ray-sourced content, etc) so those of us with quality video processors can make use of them.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #63 of 7721 Old 01-12-2012, 05:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scl23enn4m3 View Post

I'm all for excitement, but do we even know what hardware it's running? What is everyone basing their price speculation on?

I agree but regardless. A new extender hitting the market is awesome news imo. I don't need all the features of an htpc in my bedroom. I would really like to be able to use media browser though. But it if has a decent UI with coverart how that is good.

Its annoying not being able to watch recordings in the room from the main htpc. So I would be willing to sacrifice a bit.
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post #64 of 7721 Old 01-12-2012, 05:44 PM
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I have some questions...

1) Will this be able to record analog cable channels? Or is it digital only? By MSO still has a handful of channels that are only available via analog so, unfortunately, analog is still a requirement for me.

2) Will there be a way to transfer the recorded WTV files from the Q to a PC? Even if it's just a simple network share of the recordings folder? I work for VideoReDo, a PC based video editor that can work with WTV files. If this Q can actually transfer the WTV files over to a PC then it could become a very popular option among our users, a lot of whom already use your PCI cards on home brew HTPCs.

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post #65 of 7721 Old 01-12-2012, 06:02 PM
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True about the pricing and WAG at this point. But I would think the pricing info we are all giving in this thread will actually have use to Ceton. It will give them an idea what one of thier primary markets values this unit at. There have been more than a few products released to market with pricing that is just flat unrealistic.

Hopefully Ceton can use this thread as a bit of a "market survey" of sorts for both what we desire in terms of features and pricing..

DAN203: This thread is for the extender, by definition it will not record anything, it is just a device to stream data from another source.. The Q is the "dvr" device and is covered in another thread.
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post #66 of 7721 Old 01-12-2012, 06:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan203 View Post

I have some questions...

1) Will this be able to record analog cable channels? Or is it digital only? By MSO still has a handful of channels that are only available via analog so, unfortunately, analog is still a requirement for me.

2) Will there be a way to transfer the recorded WTV files from the Q to a PC? Even if it's just a simple network share of the recordings folder? I work for VideoReDo, a PC based video editor that can work with WTV files. If this Q can actually transfer the WTV files over to a PC then it could become a very popular option among our users, a lot of whom already use your PCI cards on home brew HTPCs.

Dan

I think you are in the wrong thread. This one is discussing the extender so there is no recording on this device. And videoredo. Very nice product!
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post #67 of 7721 Old 01-12-2012, 07:17 PM
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Oops. I saw Eric post something about the Q and assumed this thread regarded both products.

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post #68 of 7721 Old 01-12-2012, 08:55 PM
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First of all, Eric, I'm super excited at the prospect of such a device (pairing) on the market. I had followed the Movi multi-room setups for some time, but with the hard drive issues (and eventual acquisition), I never pulled the trigger.

Any assurances on the longetivity of the hard drive - i.e. that commercial-grade HD's are used versus consumer models that are more prone to failure - would be helpful. Or at very least, to understand the basic lifespan to expect from the single drive and, subsequently, the buyer's ability to install their own.

Also, one big functional hangup with the Movi setup was that the extenders could not interact with the main DVR, i.e. set up recordings, manage priorities, etc. and simply became "dumb" extenders.

Admittedly, I don't know much about Windows Embedded platform, which may answer the question, but would the Echo act as a "full" extension of the DVR? Or are they similarly a play-only client with what the Q (or other WM server) streams to them?

Thanks, in advance,
-Mike
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post #69 of 7721 Old 01-13-2012, 12:56 AM
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I think you mean Moxi, not Movi.

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post #70 of 7721 Old 01-13-2012, 06:10 AM
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Getting excited to learn more about this Extender. A great move by Ceton IMO.

One thing I hope is that with the WMC looking interface that it goes beyond what the stock WMC can do for codecs. Also for subtitles handling.
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post #71 of 7721 Old 01-13-2012, 07:49 AM
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Have sale date and price been announced?
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post #72 of 7721 Old 01-13-2012, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShoutingMan View Post

Have sale date and price been announced?

No, the only thing mentioned in the Engadget article was "2012" as a release date.

As far as the value of this thing goes, I think we can establish an approximate range. If it works with 7MC at least as well as the 360, there's your basis for starting point value (though should be slightly less for some, as it doesn't game/play DVDs like the 360.) At the high end, if it truly supports all the media formats you'd want, like say the Dune Smart D1, and it adds 7MC extender support, it'd be priceless...

I'm calling it now - $299.99!
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post #73 of 7721 Old 01-13-2012, 08:30 AM
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I really hope these extenders are just extending the use of the Ceton card rather than working like how a xbox 360 works. I wouldn't like the idea of having to use this device to link to a win7 machine with WMC. Just another dependency and point of failure...

I think if it has win7 embedded it could be just running WMC? In that case it would be much more ideal, because correct me if I am wrong aren't you allowed to extend one extender to one win7 machine with WMC?
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post #74 of 7721 Old 01-13-2012, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FantaXP7 View Post

I really hope these extenders are just extending the use of the Ceton card rather than working like how a xbox 360 works. I wouldn't like the idea of having to use this device to link to a win7 machine with WMC. Just another dependency and point of failure...

The Echo is an extender - it won't be even remotely useful without a Ceton Q OR a Windows 7 system running Windows Media Center.

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Originally Posted by FantaXP7 View Post

I think if it has win7 embedded it could be just running WMC?

I don't think we know yet what the Echo will be running, but I doubt it will be any form of Windows 7.

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In that case it would be much more ideal, because correct me if I am wrong aren't you allowed to extend one extender to one win7 machine with WMC?

I'm not sure I follow your question, but each extender can be paired to one Windows 7 system running WMC. A single Windows 7 system running WMC can be paired with multiple extenders. It's a one to many relationship - the server paired to multiple extenders (only 5, IIRC, can be active at any given time).
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post #75 of 7721 Old 01-13-2012, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FantaXP7 View Post

I really hope these extenders are just extending the use of the Ceton card rather than working like how a xbox 360 works. I wouldn't like the idea of having to use this device to link to a win7 machine with WMC. Just another dependency and point of failure...

The Echo is an Extender for Windows Media Center, so it will work like the Xbox in that regard.

Quote:


I think if it has win7 embedded it could be just running WMC?

The Q, the DVR is running Windows 7 Embedded so yes that is running Windows Media Center, we're talking about the Echo extender in this thread though (I believe there's another about the Q DVR).

Quote:


In that case it would be much more ideal,

Not really, because Windows Media Center machines can't share guide/tuners, then can't work together as a system so they're really no better than having multiple DVRs. You can't watch something recorded on another machine (if it was recorded with DRM) your recording schedule and guide aren't global across everything.

Quote:


....because correct me if I am wrong aren't you allowed to extend one extender to one win7 machine with WMC?

I don't follow that.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #76 of 7721 Old 01-13-2012, 09:13 AM
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Considering that one can get a barebones Xbox 360 4GB for under $200 now, and the price should go nowhere but down by the time the Echo comes out, I think a $299 price point would be a disaster for this product. Don't forget, even if every member of this sub-forum picks up a few of these, but the average Joe doesn't find it an attractive buy, then sales overall will be a disaster.

Even though my wife likes the idea of finally having a multi-room DVR of some sort, she'd laugh at the thought of paying $300 for one of these ("but with the savings in box rental fees, it'll pay for itself in just four years, honey!"). I think this thing needs to be much closer to $100, if not below, to be successful.
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post #77 of 7721 Old 01-13-2012, 09:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gsr View Post

The Echo is an extender - it won't be even remotely useful without a Ceton Q OR a Windows 7 system running Windows Media Center.



I don't think we know yet what the Echo will be running, but I doubt it will be any form of Windows 7.


I'm not sure I follow your question, but each extender can be paired to one Windows 7 system running WMC. A single Windows 7 system running WMC can be paired with multiple extenders. It's a one to many relationship - the server paired to multiple extenders (only 5, IIRC, can be active at any given time).

Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

The Echo is an Extender for Windows Media Center, so it will work like the Xbox in that regard.



The Q, the DVR is running Windows 7 Embedded so yes that is running Windows Media Center, we're talking about the Echo extender in this thread though (I believe there's another about the Q DVR).



Not really, because Windows Media Center machines can't share guide/tuners, then can't work together as a system so they're really no better than having multiple DVRs. You can't watch something recorded on another machine (if it was recorded with DRM) your recording schedule and guide aren't global across everything.



I don't follow that.


Thanks for the break down.

I think my biggest concern was addressed. I thought that it was one extender to machine with WMC. I wonder though, I right now have a Linux server but if I had WHS working could I use that as an extender? Not too familiar with WHS...Or are these extenders going to be for us only with the main Q device?

I was hoping that these extenders were only being called extenders for the use of Live TV only. I prefer to use separate HTPC's as the Xbox 360 as an extender left me with a bad experience with extenders overall.

I guess I should reserve judgement though until we know more and see it in action

"Not really, because Windows Media Center machines can't share guide/tuners, then can't work together as a system so they're really no better than having multiple DVRs. You can't watch something recorded on another machine (if it was recorded with DRM) your recording schedule and guide aren't global across everything."

I didn't take this into consideration. Good point.

Thanks
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post #78 of 7721 Old 01-13-2012, 09:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FantaXP7 View Post

as the Xbox 360 as an extender left me with a bad experience with extenders overall.

xbox's tend to do that....
hopefully the echo is better...

NOTE: As one wise professional something once stated, I am ignorant & childish, with a mindset comparable to 9/11 troofers and wackjob conspiracy theorists. so don't take anything I say as advice...
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post #79 of 7721 Old 01-13-2012, 10:00 AM
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Watched an Engadget webcast last night with the Ceton guys, they mentioned the Echo price would be less than an Xbox, which certainly makes sense to me.
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post #80 of 7721 Old 01-13-2012, 10:01 AM
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Hopefully, this makes it clear...

The Ceton Extender is at it's core a Media Center Extender. Which means it requires a Windows Media Center PC as a host. The Q is a standard Media Center host, nothing else.

It'll not work as an extender for Linux, WHS, Windows Server, Popcorn, Choclate, chopped zuchini or what have you.

An MC extender requires an MC host. If A=B and B=C, then .....

The unknown part is only about it's capabilities is the formats, BD playback etc.
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post #81 of 7721 Old 01-13-2012, 10:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kapone View Post

Hopefully, this makes it clear...

The Ceton Extender is at it's core a Media Center Extender. Which means it requires a Windows Media Center PC as a host. The Q is a standard Media Center host, nothing else.

It'll not work as an extender for Linux, WHS, Windows Server, Popcorn, Choclate, chopped zuchini or what have you.

An MC extender requires an MC host. If A=B and B=C, then .....

The unknown part is only about it's capabilities is the formats, BD playback etc.

Damn it no chopped zuchini! screw this!

Well I am already using my main HTPC as a Ceton server so to speak. I was just really hoping to be able to use my actual server with all it's disk space as the main server to use with these extenders.

Oh well.
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post #82 of 7721 Old 01-13-2012, 10:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kapone View Post

Hopefully, this makes it clear...

The Ceton Extender is at it's core a Media Center Extender. Which means it requires a Windows Media Center PC as a host. The Q is a standard Media Center host, nothing else.

It'll not work as an extender for Linux, WHS, Windows Server, Popcorn, Choclate, chopped zuchini or what have you.

An MC extender requires an MC host. If A=B and B=C, then .....

The unknown part is only about it's capabilities is the formats, BD playback etc.

So the Echo should work as an extender for my existing 7MC host, just won't get the extra functionality that Ceton is adding?
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post #83 of 7721 Old 01-13-2012, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by JDLIVE View Post

So the Echo should work as an extender for my existing 7MC host, just won't get the extra functionality that Ceton is adding?

Atleast that's how I understand it.
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post #84 of 7721 Old 01-13-2012, 10:12 AM
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I thought Eric had posted that you wouldn't get the custom Ceton themes/skins if you used a normal 7MC machine, but it sounds like the media stuff should work with a regular Windows 7 machine?

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #85 of 7721 Old 01-13-2012, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GMan42 View Post

Considering that one can get a barebones Xbox 360 4GB for under $200 now, and the price should go nowhere but down by the time the Echo comes out, I think a $299 price point would be a disaster for this product. Don't forget, even if every member of this sub-forum picks up a few of these, but the average Joe doesn't find it an attractive buy, then sales overall will be a disaster.

Even though my wife likes the idea of finally having a multi-room DVR of some sort, she'd laugh at the thought of paying $300 for one of these ("but with the savings in box rental fees, it'll pay for itself in just four years, honey!"). I think this thing needs to be much closer to $100, if not below, to be successful.

At $100, you'll get what you pay for - the <=$100 streamer market is pretty dismal. If its only functionality is as a 7MC extender, you might see it near $100.

Someone said Ceton stated it'd be less than a 360 (the base model?) That'd be great.

Realistically, if this does what the PCH or Dune do, I'd happily pay > $200 for it, as it'd be the only game in town as a full-fledged streamer AND a 7MC extender.
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post #86 of 7721 Old 01-13-2012, 11:06 AM
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post #87 of 7721 Old 01-13-2012, 12:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by werd View Post

Ceton video podcast below, enjoy.

Nice link, thanks.

From the podcast:
Quote:


Q: Can I stream blu-rays to my Echo?
A: We're not ready to talk about that yet. Technically it's possible, but it's a legal issue.

Quote:


...allows a real home theater experience that the xbox doesn't support (referencing the Echo).

I guess it's encouraging that they know it's possible (since enthusiasts already knew that), but the fact that they can't talk about it concerns me regarding BD rip streaming to the extender. That's really the big question (in my eyes) since if it can't stream, it offers very little the xbox doesn't.

Some really nice opportunities and possibilities with this system, color me cautiously optimistic.
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post #88 of 7721 Old 01-13-2012, 02:14 PM
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Exactly, my favorite thing about ceton is that they are basically us, and know what we like/want and what formats we desire to use. As such I have high hopes for this little device. Also excited they they will allow outside developers as well. Can't wait!
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post #89 of 7721 Old 01-13-2012, 02:39 PM
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Can't wait, hope it won't be 12/31/12
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post #90 of 7721 Old 01-13-2012, 04:19 PM
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At $500 this will be a failure. The market for the product is pretty niche as it is. 90% of those shopping for this device know full well that the xbox 360 has the same basic functionality. Most of those shoppers will already have a HTPC. It has to compete on the 360's price. I bet the amount they sell to HTPC owners vs. Q buyers will be significant, as long as it's priced right.

$300 for the Q and $150 for the extenders will be a hot combination but I do not expect the Q to be that cheap, at $500 with the BR capabilities is a fair price.
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