Ceton Q DVR-HTPC Info Thread - Page 6 - AVS Forum
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post #151 of 324 Old 04-27-2012, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by slowbiscuit View Post

I get that it does more stuff than a DVR does, but it's not an HTPC because it can't (or won't be able to) run any of a number of other useful add-on apps that you can load and run on a PC (transcoding comes to mind, as well as commercial skip). Or be able to load third-party USB tuner drivers etc. It will be locked down because it has to be locked down for support.

It is a media server/gateway appliance with DVR functionality. It's not a PC, or even a dedicated HTPC.

I wonder what percentage of folks running CableCards can use comskip and transcoding? I know I'm not able to use it for >90% of what I record, since everything except the locals are copy-protected by my CableCo.
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post #152 of 324 Old 04-27-2012, 12:00 PM
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The arguments seem to boil down to the fundamental question "What is an HTPC"? We've heard what others think defines an HTPC. In my opinion, as soon as you have to break out a keyboard or mouse, it fails the definition of HTPC, and becomes simply a PC that you play media on (similar to sitting at your desk and pulling up files through Windows Explorer or watching youtube through IE).

Stanger and myself have spent a lot of effort removing all "pc-ness" from our HTPC's, and there are others who want to run apps from the desktop. Different flavors of the same thing, but I consider the Q a full HTPC. If I want to run desktop apps, I'll use my office PC or laptop. I don't need read email or play solitaire on my 58" screen in my living room. (and yes, I'm being facetious for the sensitive ones out there...)
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post #153 of 324 Old 04-27-2012, 12:47 PM
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I still think it's a HTPC Hardware wise, it's a PC. Software wise it runs windows embedded, customized and perhaps locked down so it can't be tampered with.

If I was to give you a Porsche 911 Turbo, but program the ECU so it can't go past 55MPH; is it still a sports car?
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post #154 of 324 Old 04-27-2012, 02:28 PM
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If I was to give you a Porsche 911 Turbo, but program the ECU so it can't go past 55MPH; is it still a sports car?

No.
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post #155 of 324 Old 04-28-2012, 08:26 AM
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There are clearly two school of thoughts here
1) Folks who want "Q" to replace their HTPC. They are looking for all bells and whistles and are willing to fork 1000

2) Folks who are looking for a replacement for cable box DVR. Primary target is getting rid of monthly DVR fees.

Segment 1) is Ceton's existing customer base. Not all of it because not all HTPC folks will spend $1000.

Segment 2) is a much broader base. I belong there. I have a HTPC, but the primary goal of building one was that I needed a DVR and did not want to spend $40/month on fees.

Its a tough choice for Ceton
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post #156 of 324 Old 05-01-2012, 06:43 PM
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It looks like ceton announced a beta program for the echo extender, and announced info about the phone apps, but I don't think there has been any updates info about the main device: the q.

Did I miss something? How are they doing extender without a well-functioning q? I suppose it should be in beta soon too?
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post #157 of 324 Old 05-01-2012, 06:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skro View Post

It looks like ceton announced a beta program for the echo extender, and announced info about the phone apps, but I don't think there has been any updates info about the main device: the q.

Did I miss something? How are they doing extender without a well-functioning q? I suppose it should be in beta soon too?

The Echos work with any existing systems running Media Center, so I guess they take priority in releasing first. Only other extenders sold anymore are Xbox's.
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post #158 of 324 Old 05-01-2012, 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Diverge View Post


The Echos work with any existing systems running Media Center, so I guess they take priority in releasing first. Only other extenders sold anymore are Xbox's.

Ahh ... Thanks. I'm just catching up on the Q, and I thought these extenders were specifically for the Q.
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post #159 of 324 Old 05-02-2012, 04:05 AM
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Originally Posted by skro View Post

Ahh ... Thanks. I'm just catching up on the Q, and I thought these extenders were specifically for the Q.

http://cetoncorp.com/products/echo/

The Ceton "Echo" can connect to a Ceton "Q" entertainment gateway as well as any Windows 7 PC with Windows Media Center.
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post #160 of 324 Old 05-09-2012, 12:00 PM
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So When When When for this thing?!!
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post #161 of 324 Old 05-09-2012, 08:30 PM
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I'm curious assuming you already have a htpc with tuners what would the Q provide over the htpc? Just trying to figure out whether to buy this or not and what its worth to me. Depending on price I will be buying a few to a bunch of Echo's. Hoping to get into beta.

-RobNY
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post #162 of 324 Old 05-10-2012, 06:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobNY View Post

I'm curious assuming you already have a htpc with tuners what would the Q provide over the htpc? Just trying to figure out whether to buy this or not and what its worth to me. Depending on price I will be buying a few to a bunch of Echo's. Hoping to get into beta.

-RobNY

Stability - at least, that has to be their goal.

-no installing drivers
-no 29/59 sync problems
-no codecs that break live tv
-no hdcp handshake issues
-no wol/resume from sleep problems
-no need to screw with network flow control

those seem to be the main problems people have with their computers - odd interactions between pieces of hardware and the software. creating an off the shelf unit would negate that.

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post #163 of 324 Old 05-10-2012, 06:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pittsoccer33 View Post

Stability - at least, that has to be their goal.

-no installing drivers
-no 29/59 sync problems
-no codecs that break live tv
-no hdcp handshake issues
-no wol/resume from sleep problems
-no need to screw with network flow control

those seem to be the main problems people have with their computers - odd interactions between pieces of hardware and the software. creating an off the shelf unit would negate that.

Thanks that is what I thought so for someone with a htpc it will be nice to have if you have extra money burning a hole in your pocket. So I will pass on the Q and pickup the Echo's.

-RobNY
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post #164 of 324 Old 05-10-2012, 07:02 AM - Thread Starter
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they are also going to add in some streaming interfaces and things that WMC on a pc lacks. no specific details on that have come out yet though. they did say that those special things (kind of like how Niveus had their own custom options in WMC) will also be able to extend to their echo devices.

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post #165 of 324 Old 05-10-2012, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by wolfereeno View Post

So When When When for this thing?!!

The only official announcement is that they will be available by the end of 2012.
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post #166 of 324 Old 05-15-2012, 08:31 AM
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Is anyone concerned about the longer term viability of the Q and extenders in light of the recent Microsoft announcement that Windows Media Center will only be available on the Professional Version of Windows 8, and even then for a extra charge? The Q seems to be based on Windows 7 WMC. If MS drops support for WMC in Win 7 (let's say in a couple of years) and or stops updating the TV listings (which I assume are maintained or paid for by MS) those would be significant issues to the longer term use of the Q.

It is clear to me that WMC has no long term future in MS. They are killing it by charging separately for it in a version that most consumers won't be owning.
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post #167 of 324 Old 05-15-2012, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by zigner View Post

Is anyone concerned about the longer term viability of the Q and extenders in light of the recent Microsoft announcement that Windows Media Center will only be available on the Professional Version of Windows 8, and even then for a extra charge? The Q seems to be based on Windows 7 WMC. If MS drops support for WMC in Win 7 (let's say in a couple of years) and or stops updating the TV listings (which I assume are maintained or paid for by MS) those would be significant issues to the longer term use of the Q.

It is clear to me that WMC has no long term future in MS. They are killing it by charging separately for it in a version that most consumers won't be owning.

Even if MS stops selling WMC in a "few" years, they'll need to continue supporting it for the lifetime of Windows 8. So I would think we're safe for at least 5 years at this point. Eric from Ceton has indicated that they have a way to provide their own guide data if Microsoft eventually drops their support. So no, I don't see anything to really be worried about here.
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post #168 of 324 Old 05-15-2012, 09:36 AM
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Ceton may be providing guide data sooner rather than later, judging from the poor quality and unreliable delivery of it lately.
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post #169 of 324 Old 05-15-2012, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slowbiscuit View Post

Ceton may be providing guide data sooner rather than later, judging from the poor quality and unreliable delivery of it lately.


Quote:


Eric from Ceton has indicated that they have a way to provide their own guide data if Microsoft eventually drops their support. So no, I don't see anything to really be worried about here.

I guess I am a worry wart I sure hope this guide data situation does not turn into a monthly TiVo like subscription service with monthly fees.
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post #170 of 324 Old 05-18-2012, 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by zigner View Post

Is anyone concerned about the longer term viability of the Q and extenders in light of the recent Microsoft announcement that Windows Media Center will only be available on the Professional Version of Windows 8, and even then for a extra charge? The Q seems to be based on Windows 7 WMC. If MS drops support for WMC in Win 7 (let's say in a couple of years) and or stops updating the TV listings (which I assume are maintained or paid for by MS) those would be significant issues to the longer term use of the Q.

It is clear to me that WMC has no long term future in MS. They are killing it by charging separately for it in a version that most consumers won't be owning.

I think Microsoft is making a huge mistake by not aggressively re-marketing Windows Media Center, especially with the likes of AppleTV gaining rapid popularity.

Where Microsoft failed with WMC over the years (e.g. Windows XP Media Center Edition) was that WMC and HTPC's in itself were immature concepts that proved to be too much of a hassle for the lay user to fiddle with. Heck, aside from AVSForum visitors, many people today still find the concept to be a hassle. Example: Think of all the different codecs that are floating around, and how switching codecs may "paralyze" your Win7, forcing a reinstall.

The difference today is that access to high-end home theater equipment has become very affordable and very ubiquitous. Not to mention, the hardware has also become so technologically awestriking that many people, like myself, would rather stay home with my large screen HDTV + Surround Sound than go to the movie theater.

WMC in Win7 has become much more mature; with some time, effort & patience, WMC serves as a great companion software to accompany any HTPC build. Ceton is essentially taking that guesswork out with the "Q."

If Microsoft were to give Windows Media Center a well-deserved marketing push (a la the way it has revitalized interest in Internet Explorer and Windows Phone), it can lead the pack against AppleTV, GoogleTV, etc. Too bad Microsoft's decision-makers have gotten very tired over the years. It's no wonder that they're perceived, not as industry innovators/leaders, but rather as industry followers.
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post #171 of 324 Old 05-18-2012, 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Comp625 View Post

I think Microsoft is making a huge mistake by not aggressively re-marketing Windows Media Center, especially with the likes of AppleTV gaining rapid popularity.

Where Microsoft failed with WMC over the years (e.g. Windows XP Media Center Edition) was that WMC and HTPC's in itself were immature concepts that proved to be too much of a hassle for the lay user to fiddle with. Heck, aside from AVSForum visitors, many people today still find the concept to be a hassle. Example: Think of all the different codecs that are floating around, and how switching codecs may "paralyze" your Win7, forcing a reinstall.

The difference today is that access to high-end home theater equipment has become very affordable and very ubiquitous. Not to mention, the hardware has also become so technologically awestriking that many people, like myself, would rather stay home with my large screen HDTV + Surround Sound than go to the movie theater.

WMC in Win7 has become much more mature; with some time, effort & patience, WMC serves as a great companion software to accompany any HTPC build. Ceton is essentially taking that guesswork out with the "Q."

If Microsoft were to give Windows Media Center a well-deserved marketing push (a la the way it has revitalized interest in Internet Explorer and Windows Phone), it can lead the pack against AppleTV, GoogleTV, etc. Too bad Microsoft's decision-makers have gotten very tired over the years. It's no wonder that they're perceived, not as industry innovators/leaders, but rather as industry followers.

Agreed. If Microsoft pushed the new Metro style UI to WMC ala Media Browser Neo, they could easily rival Apple TV. Personally, I think it's a much easier jump to accommodate your current cable subscription into your PC environment than jump all the way to an ala carte on demand model people think Apple is moving too. This is coming from an Apple fan boy.
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post #172 of 324 Old 05-19-2012, 06:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Comp625 View Post

I think Microsoft is making a huge mistake by not aggressively re-marketing Windows Media Center, especially with the likes of AppleTV gaining rapid popularity.

Where Microsoft failed with WMC over the years (e.g. Windows XP Media Center Edition) was that WMC and HTPC's in itself were immature concepts that proved to be too much of a hassle for the lay user to fiddle with. Heck, aside from AVSForum visitors, many people today still find the concept to be a hassle. Example: Think of all the different codecs that are floating around, and how switching codecs may "paralyze" your Win7, forcing a reinstall.

The difference today is that access to high-end home theater equipment has become very affordable and very ubiquitous. Not to mention, the hardware has also become so technologically awestriking that many people, like myself, would rather stay home with my large screen HDTV + Surround Sound than go to the movie theater.

WMC in Win7 has become much more mature; with some time, effort & patience, WMC serves as a great companion software to accompany any HTPC build. Ceton is essentially taking that guesswork out with the "Q."

If Microsoft were to give Windows Media Center a well-deserved marketing push (a la the way it has revitalized interest in Internet Explorer and Windows Phone), it can lead the pack against AppleTV, GoogleTV, etc. Too bad Microsoft's decision-makers have gotten very tired over the years. It's no wonder that they're perceived, not as industry innovators/leaders, but rather as industry followers.

By following Microsoft current product trends it is clear that Microsoft has no interest in WMC. Microsoft is going to focus on Windows8 as a tablet and desktop OS and Xbox for gaming and Media. WMC will be available in its current form in W8 but its upto companies like Ceton and HDHR to continue WMC using embedded development.
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post #173 of 324 Old 05-19-2012, 09:08 PM
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I actually think MS is planning to push WMC in embedded form, using embedded versions of Windows 7/8, and hence the de-emphasis on WMC in retail/OEM PC Windows products.
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post #174 of 324 Old 05-24-2012, 06:56 AM
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I actually think MS is planning to push WMC in embedded form, using embedded versions of Windows 7/8, and hence the de-emphasis on WMC in retail/OEM PC Windows products.

Agreed. I would do the same thing if I were Microsoft. It makes no sense to bundle them. They can be two separate products that complement each other - with Xbox

Question: (I am sorry if this has been asked and answered a quick search of xbox did not pull any info in this thread)

Does Ceton Q support XBox as an extender? I certainly don't want to upgrade to Ceton Q and Echo at the same time. Maybe the question should say "Will XBox recognize ceton Q as a Media center?"
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post #175 of 324 Old 05-24-2012, 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by cnewsgrp View Post

Does Ceton Q support XBox as an extender? I certainly don't want to upgrade to Ceton Q and Echo at the same time. Maybe the question should say "Will XBox recognize ceton Q as a Media center?"

My understanding is:

1) The Q will work with any existing WMC Extenders for extender functionality as we know it today. So you would be able to use an XBOX to watch TV and do other things you can currently do when connected to a WMC box.

2) Some of the extensions that Ceton is working on may not work with extenders other than the Echo. This is where things aren't so clear as Ceton hasn't given us a ton of detail yet on exactly what they're adding and what will and won't work on existing extenders. We'll just need to stay tuned for more details.
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post #176 of 324 Old 05-24-2012, 07:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gsr View Post

My understanding is:

1) The Q will work with any existing WMC Extenders for extender functionality as we know it today. So you would be able to use an XBOX to watch TV and do other things you can currently do when connected to a WMC box.

2) Some of the extensions that Ceton is working on may not work with extenders other than the Echo. This is where things aren't so clear as Ceton hasn't given us a ton of detail yet on exactly what they're adding and what will and won't work on existing extenders. We'll just need to stay tuned for more details.

Thanks
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post #177 of 324 Old 06-01-2012, 04:39 AM
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So, since I know the Ceton folks are watching the forums, how's the Q going to work if not everything from your cable provider is digital? My provider has a bunch (~60) channels that are still analog NTSC. I was under the impression the Q would not support NTSC, any chance that impression is wrong, or that it would support a USB NTSC tuner?

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #178 of 324 Old 06-01-2012, 04:44 AM
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

So, since I know the Ceton folks are watching the forums, how's the Q going to work if not everything from your cable provider is digital? My provider has a bunch (~60) channels that are still analog NTSC. I was under the impression the Q would not support NTSC, any chance that impression is wrong, or that it would support a USB NTSC tuner?

The InfiniTV products don't support analog channels, so assuming that remains true with the InfiniTV 6 they're going to use in the Q, the only hope for supporting those channels is the ability to use a USB tuner. There hasn't been any definitive answer yet about supporting tuners beyond what's built into the box.
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post #179 of 324 Old 06-01-2012, 05:06 AM
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Yeah this was more a "poke" for something that maybe they hadn't thought of, or hopefully have, and found a solution for. It's one thing for a add-in CableCard tuner to not support NTSC in for a PC DVR, the end user can always add an NTSC card to the system. But the Q is an "all in one" (by that I just mean self contained, everything you need for a DVR, box), so it really should handle everything the box it replaces can, and the DVRs from my provider handle digital and analog channels.

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post #180 of 324 Old 06-01-2012, 07:05 AM
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

Yeah this was more a "poke" for something that maybe they hadn't thought of, or hopefully have, and found a solution for. It's one thing for a add-in CableCard tuner to not support NTSC in for a PC DVR, the end user can always add an NTSC card to the system. But the Q is an "all in one" (by that I just mean self contained, everything you need for a DVR, box), so it really should handle everything the box it replaces can, and the DVRs from my provider handle digital and analog channels.

I have Cox Cable and yes, there are analog channels. But, all of them are duplicated on the digital side. Don't know if that's true with all cable systems. And, all the digital channels are in both SD and HD. The network channels are in the clear, the rest are encrypted.

I'm sure the only reason for analog channels is compatibility with no-box crt TV's. At some future date, all will be digital.
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