No more high end HDMI soundcards like the Asus HDAV? - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 56 Old 07-09-2014, 07:16 AM
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Originally Posted by KurianOfBorg View Post
The mere presence of it causes all the problems I mentioned above.
Not necessarily in every environment, of course. Some say even video playback stutters in simple dual display mode, some say it's perfect...
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post #32 of 56 Old 07-09-2014, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by renethx View Post
Not necessarily in every environment, of course. Some say even video playback stutters in simple dual display mode, some say it's perfect...
I use madVR to play videos and in dual display mode it takes 3 seconds to enter fullscreen and the screen goes crazy flickering like it's having a seizure. In single display mode it flickers only once.
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post #33 of 56 Old 07-09-2014, 10:25 AM
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I just bought a cheap GT 610 and used it for the dummy HDMI audio display. I connected only my real monitors to the 780 Ti. Now I am able to instantly alt-tab in and out of games as fast as single monitor mode. But madVR still flickers like crazy when entering full screen mode. My 780 Ti is also running much cooler when idle on the desktop and the fan is not audible anymore.

I also feel that the mouse cursor movement and window dragging on the desktop has become smoother.
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post #34 of 56 Old 07-09-2014, 12:46 PM
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In my experience clean installing OS fixes many video playback problems, which would be hard to fix otherwise. I have no idea what's the cause of your problem, of course.
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post #35 of 56 Old 07-09-2014, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by renethx View Post
In my experience clean installing OS fixes many video playback problems, which would be hard to fix otherwise. I have no idea what's the cause of your problem, of course.
It is still because of the dual monitor. If I switch to just my real monitor it fullscreens immediately with one flicker.
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post #36 of 56 Old 07-09-2014, 02:21 PM
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I found this gem: http://www.aes-hdmi.com/usb-2h.html

It's like a 7.1 channel USB soundcard which outputs HDMI audio with a dummy video signal.
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post #37 of 56 Old 07-09-2014, 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted by KurianOfBorg View Post
It is still because of the dual monitor. If I switch to just my real monitor it fullscreens immediately with one flicker.
It's exactly a dual monitor problem in video playback that was fixed by clean installing OS in one of my system. YMMV, of course.
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post #38 of 56 Old 07-10-2014, 01:42 AM
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Originally Posted by renethx View Post
It's exactly a dual monitor problem in video playback that was fixed by clean installing OS in one of my system. YMMV, of course.
Nothing changes by reinstalling. MPC-HC clearly shows the filter chain used. I've had these problems for 5 years over 3 PC upgrades. Dual monitor is broken and substandard. Whether people consider substandardness a problem is a different matter.

That USB-2H is the ideal solution for anyone who doesn't want their monitor connected through their AVR.
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post #39 of 56 Old 07-10-2014, 06:16 AM
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In this forum the possibility of sending 3D video to a HDMI 1.4a 3D TV and audio to a HDMI 1.3 AVR from either a single GPU or dual GPU was first mentioned in this post (October 2010) in the sticky thread "FAQ for the 3D HTPC". Since then this topic has been discussed thoroughly in the thread. An early summary by me is here. This has become the standard workaround for people who want to enjoy 3D with a HDMI 1.3 AVR (2D such as MPC-HC+madVR also works fine, of course). Not a single person complained about problems like yours. It looks like yours is an exceptional, unfortunate case.
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post #40 of 56 Old 07-10-2014, 06:37 AM
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I am considering a DIY project to build a low cost HDMI embedder. These retail products are grossly overpriced. Something like a miniStreamer can be used to generate 8 channel I2S from the PC which can be muxed into a HDMI transmitter with a dummy signal.

To use a sound card to retain EAX and OpenAL support, the analog output could be converted to I2S using something like this http://www.ti.com/product/pcm1863.

I need to do some extensive research on the subject.

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post #41 of 56 Old 07-15-2014, 04:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KurianOfBorg View Post
These cards are still very much necessary. If you have a 3D monitor or high resolution monitor you cannot use HDMI through a receiver. The monitor needs to be connected directly to the GPU, and the sound card connected to a headless receiver via HDMI. You can supply the sound card a dummy HDMI input using an external VGA to HDMI adapter which generates a HDMI video signal.

You cannot connect the receiver to the GPU either since that causes a second monitor to be displayed in Windows and it causes lag and other problems.
I use a tv as my main monitor and go video card -> AVR -> TV. I also have a second display that is connected directly to the video card.

As a test, I just set the secondary display as my primary and set my AVR so that it's no longer an active desktop.

I have zero of the problems you describe.
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post #42 of 56 Old 07-15-2014, 04:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Flash676 View Post
I use a tv as my main monitor and go video card -> AVR -> TV. I also have a second display that is connected directly to the video card.

As a test, I just set the secondary display as my primary and set my AVR so that it's no longer an active desktop.

I have zero of the problems you describe.
How will you get sound if the AVR display is disabled in the desktop?
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post #43 of 56 Old 07-15-2014, 04:46 AM
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Originally Posted by KurianOfBorg View Post
How will you get sound if the AVR display is disabled in the desktop?
It's not disabled, I set up an Eyefinity group where the desktop doesn't span onto both displays.

I see you have nVidia hardware. I'll play around tomorrow to see if I can get it to work with just the built-in Windows functionality.
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post #44 of 56 Old 07-15-2014, 04:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Flash676 View Post
It's not disabled, I set up an Eyefinity group where the desktop doesn't span onto both displays.

I see you have nVidia hardware. I'll play around tomorrow to see if I can get it to work with just the built-in Windows functionality.
Won't this affect games and make them span onto the AVR display? My main monitor is 2560x1440 and the other one is 120 Hz. I use one of these + AVR at a time. I don't see how they can span properly with the AVR which is 1920x1080 60 Hz.

As long as Windows doesn't see a second display, all the problems will disappear.

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post #45 of 56 Old 07-15-2014, 05:07 AM
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Originally Posted by KurianOfBorg View Post
Won't this affect games and make them span onto the AVR display? My main monitor is 2560x1440 and the other one is 120 Hz. I use one of these + AVR at a time. I don't see how they can span properly with the AVR which is 1920x1080 60 Hz.

As long as Windows doesn't see a second display, all the problems will disappear.
The OS sees the Eyefinity group as one display. The desktop resolution is intentionally set to half that of the group and I've positioned it to only appear on one display.

Both connected displays happen to have the same resolution and refresh rate (I think your tearing problem is due to the differing refresh rates, my laptop has a similar problem.) I've never used it any other way so I can't speak as to other setups.

That said, I'm still not convinced that Windows itself won't let you do this. I'm pretty sure my AVR still appears as an audio device even when I'm not using it as a desktop.
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post #46 of 56 Old 07-15-2014, 05:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Flash676 View Post
Both connected displays happen to have the same resolution and refresh rate (I think your tearing problem is due to the differing refresh rates, my laptop has a similar problem.) I've never used it any other way so I can't speak as to other setups.

That said, I'm still not convinced that Windows itself won't let you do this. I'm pretty sure my AVR still appears as an audio device even when I'm not using it as a desktop.
I cannot even create a surround group since one is a 3D monitor. If I don't extend the desktop to the AVR, the audio device appears with the AVR name but is marked as unplugged and doesn't work.
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post #47 of 56 Old 07-15-2014, 06:00 AM
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but what about jitter? is a graphics gaming card really ideal for digital sound transporting?
Strictly speaking jitter is the responsibility of the device that receives the digital signal and not the one that sends it.

The way that HDMI transmits audio always implies tremendous amounts of inherent jitter. The audio is broken up into packets and transmitted at regular intervals related to video frame and line segments, at a very much higher clock frequency then the steady state clock frequency that is used for listening. Anybody who tries to sell you a low-jitter HDMI audio card is blowing smoke up your back because they all create tremendous amounts of jitter if they are working at all.

There has been a lot of discussion of HDMI jitter in the Audio Theory, Setup, and Chat forum. We know of no reliable listening tests that have shown HDMI audio jitter to be an audible problem. Compared to the findings of scientific papers related to FM distortion (The proper technical term for HDMI clock jitter) there is little or no mainstream audio gear with audible jitter, and by several orders of magnitude - which is a good safety margin.
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post #48 of 56 Old 07-15-2014, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by KurianOfBorg View Post
I cannot even create a surround group since one is a 3D monitor. If I don't extend the desktop to the AVR, the audio device appears with the AVR name but is marked as unplugged and doesn't work.

After playing around a bit more, I'm going to go ahead and say you're right about this, at least with regard to the built-in Windows functionality. I have to extend or duplicate onto the second display for the AVR to stay connected as an audio device.


The eyefinity solution of creating one virtual monitor and only using part of the total resolution still works fine, though.


But, even when using two distinct monitors and extending the desktop, which is my usual setup, I don't have any issues with tearing or lag like you've indicated. At least, not with my desktop PC.


My laptop, with the integrated Intel HD4400, does show tearing but only when set to duplicate, not extend. I'm pretty sure that's due to the mismatch in refresh rates (59.97 for the TV, 60 for the built-in display.)


I agree there's a problem, but I'm pretty sure it's specific to particular setups, since only one of my two computers has issues with multiple monitors.
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post #49 of 56 Old 07-15-2014, 02:49 PM
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It's not just tearing or lag. It's a HUGE pile of issues. I have two monitors and the AVR connected to my GPU. One monitor is additionally connected to the AVR as well for the PS3 etc.

  • Switching off the receiver while an application is playing audio may crash the application if it doesn't handle the audio device disappearing abruptly.
  • Switching the receiver to another source to check on something (PS3 download etc.) crashes applications like above and makes my primary monitor switch off and on.
  • If the receiver is switched off some apps don't even launch (they don't handle no audio device).
  • If the receiver is switched off, YouTube videos crash after a few seconds stating "An error occured." (failing because there is no audio device).
  • If an app starts on the invisible display and it's brought back to the primary display, the colours are screwed up. This happens even when using a utility like Ultramon to force apps to one display. My monitors are calibrated and the profile of one display is useless on another. Most apps don't reload the profile. Uncalibrated monitors use sRGB across both so it doesn't matter.
  • If I switch on 3D everything flickers and the box remains unchecked. I need to check it again to enable 3D. It looks like some kind of bug when there is a 3D Vision Ready display and a HDMI 1.4a 3D display at the same time.
  • If I switch off 3D the PC may BSOD.
  • If I switch on or off the second monitor connected through the AVR, even though it's disabled in Windows it makes my primary monitor switch off and on and the audio interrupts and apps crash. Sometimes it goes into a loop with all the displays switching on and off indefinitely.
  • The speaker configuration keeps getting reset to 7.1 and the sample rate back to 16-bit 48 kHz every time the display blanks or PC restarts.
  • Alt-Tabbing out of games makes the screen flicker several times. With a single monitor it's instant like switching between desktop applications.
  • madVR flickers like crazy when entering fullscreen exclusive mode.
  • Desktop tearing and input lag.

Some ofthese problems got resolved when I bought a GT610 and dedicated that for the AVR and connected just the two monitors to the 780 Ti. I use one monitor at a time on the 780 Ti and the GT610 for the AVR.

I've ordered a Gefen HDMI Detective Plus and am waiting for it to arrive. That should resolve some more issues since the AVR EDID will appear permanently switched on to the GPU.

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post #50 of 56 Old 07-15-2014, 03:47 PM
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It's not just tearing or lag. It's a HUGE pile of issues. I have two monitors and the AVR connected to my GPU. One monitor is additionally connected to the AVR as well for the PS3 etc.

  • Switching off the receiver while an application is playing audio may crash the application if it doesn't handle the audio device disappearing abruptly.
Just tested. Works fine. I think the difference is that my AVR appears as an audio device even while turned off because I have HDMI passthrough enabled and a device on the other end. (Two devices, actually. PC->AVR->Wireless Headphone unit->TV.)
  • Switching the receiver to another source to check on something (PS3 download etc.) crashes applications like above and makes my primary monitor switch off and on.
Same response as above, but may vary depending your AVR. With many AVRs, you disconnect the device when you switch the input. My H/K receiver was really bad with this, my Pioneer is a lot better.
  • If the receiver is switched off some apps don't even launch (they don't handle no audio device).
Again, just tested, no problem.
  • If the receiver is switched off, YouTube videos crash after a few seconds stating "An error occured." (failing because there is no audio device).
Just tested, works fine.
  • If an app starts on the invisible display and it's brought back to the primary display, the colours are screwed up. This happens even when using a utility like Ultramon to force apps to one display. My monitors are calibrated and the profile of one display is useless on another. Most apps don't reload the profile. Uncalibrated monitors use sRGB across both so it doesn't matter.
Don't have a way of testing this. My TV was professionally calibrated through its own adjustments so I don't use different color profiles.
  • If I switch on 3D everything flickers and the box remains unchecked. I need to check it again to enable 3D. It looks like some kind of bug when there is a 3D Vision Ready display and a HDMI 1.4a 3D display at the same time.
  • If I switch off 3D the PC may BSOD.
Can't help here because I don't have 3D Vision, but AMD 3DHD has worked fine for the very few times I've actually used it.
  • If I switch on or off the second monitor connected through the AVR, even though it's disabled in Windows it makes my primary monitor switch off and on and the audio interrupts and apps crash. Sometimes it goes into a loop with all the displays switching on and off indefinitely.
Just tested, works fine.
  • The speaker configuration keeps getting reset to 7.1 and the sample rate back to 16-bit 48 kHz every time the display blanks or PC restarts.
No issues here, but one thing to note. If my AVR is off, it reports the audio capabilities of the next device in the chain, which are less than that of the AVR. So if the next device is the TV, it will switch to stereo until the AVR is powered on and re-detected, at which point it will automatically switch back to 7.1.
  • Alt-Tabbing out of games makes the screen flicker several times. With a single monitor it's instant like switching between desktop applications.
  • Desktop tearing and input lag.
No problems with either of these on my desktop (R9 290x.) My laptop does have tearing issues but only with duplicate, not extend.

My responses are above. I think a big part of your problem is that your AVR disappears as an audio device. Mine stays even when powered off due to the passthrough and display connected through it.

What AVR are you using?
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post #51 of 56 Old 07-15-2014, 03:51 PM
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I have a Marantz SR5008. It doesn't disappear; It changes to unplugged. This causes audio to stop and makes the GPU cycle the remaining displays off and on. If I enable HDMI passthrough the monitor's HDMI device appears instead after it's switched off but it still causes the remaining displays to cycle off and on, so I just switched off passthrough. I have no other audio playback devices in the list, hence the bugs. If I enabled my onboard audio it will fall back to that, but I don't want those bloated Realtek garbage drivers on my PC.

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post #52 of 56 Old 07-15-2014, 04:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KurianOfBorg View Post
I have a Marantz SR5008. It doesn't disappear; It changes to unplugged. This causes audio to stop and makes the GPU cycle the remaining displays off and on. If I enable HDMI passthrough the monitor's HDMI device appears instead after it's switched off but it still causes the remaining displays to cycle off and on, so I just switched off passthrough. I have no other audio playback devices in the list, hence the bugs. If I enabled my onboard audio it will fall back to that, but I don't want those bloated Realtek garbage drivers on my PC.
Do you have access to another brand of AVR to test or is it not worth the hassle?


My Pioneer Elite AVR (SC-68) always appears as the audio device, even when off with the pass-through enabled. The devices on the other side are never directly exposed to Windows. I suspect that's the key difference here.


I understand your frustration, my previous H/K AVR had an issue where once the video was interrupted, it would just never come back, even with only one display.
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post #53 of 56 Old 07-15-2014, 04:39 PM
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I upgraded to this from an Onkyo HTIB. That one always showed the AVR EDID even in passthrough mode. However I barely used it connected to the GPU since I had an Auzentech X-Fi HTHD. I removed it because the drivers are broken on Windows 8.1.
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post #54 of 56 Old 07-15-2014, 05:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KurianOfBorg View Post
These cards are still very much necessary. If you have a 3D monitor or high resolution monitor you cannot use HDMI through a receiver. The monitor needs to be connected directly to the GPU, and the sound card connected to a headless receiver via HDMI. You can supply the sound card a dummy HDMI input using an external VGA to HDMI adapter which generates a HDMI video signal.

You cannot connect the receiver to the GPU either since that causes a second monitor to be displayed in Windows and it causes lag and other problems.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KurianOfBorg View Post
I have a Marantz SR5008. It doesn't disappear; It changes to unplugged. This causes audio to stop and makes the GPU cycle the remaining displays off and on. If I enable HDMI passthrough the monitor's HDMI device appears instead after it's switched off but it still causes the remaining displays to cycle off and on, so I just switched off passthrough. I have no other audio playback devices in the list, hence the bugs. If I enabled my onboard audio it will fall back to that, but I don't want those bloated Realtek garbage drivers on my PC.

Quote:
Marantz SR5008

There are 7 HDMI inputs (including 1 conveniently located on the front panel) so you can connect a broad range of source components, and all HDMI inputs are 3D and 4K Ultra HD compatible. HDMI Standby Pass-through lets you enjoy casual programs on your TV (such as newscasts) via your TV’s speakers when the SR5008 is in standby mode.

Pardon my ignorance, but if your display is 3D capable/high res, and your receiver supports 3D and high res, why exactly can't you connect the display to the receiver? What's the point of having a 3D capable receiver if, according to you, you can't connect your 3D display to it?

It appears to me to be a problem with the receiver if a straightforward connection won't work... not windows or your sound card.

RAID protection is only for failed drives. That's it. It's no replacement for a proper backup.
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post #55 of 56 Old 07-15-2014, 06:17 PM
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Pardon my ignorance, but if your display is 3D capable/high res, and your receiver supports 3D and high res, why exactly can't you connect the display to the receiver? What's the point of having a 3D capable receiver if, according to you, you can't connect your 3D display to it?

It appears to me to be a problem with the receiver if a straightforward connection won't work... not windows or your sound card.

The 4K support in HDMI 1.4 is at 30Hz, at most. I think he has one monitor at 2560x1440 and another at some unspecified resolution at 120 Hz.
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post #56 of 56 Old 07-16-2014, 01:43 AM
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Originally Posted by ajhieb View Post
Pardon my ignorance, but if your display is 3D capable/high res, and your receiver supports 3D and high res, why exactly can't you connect the display to the receiver? What's the point of having a 3D capable receiver if, according to you, you can't connect your 3D display to it?

It appears to me to be a problem with the receiver if a straightforward connection won't work... not windows or your sound card.
HDMI 1.4a 3D only supports 1080p at 24 fps. This is useless for games. Only a direct connection to the PC can run a 1080p 120 Hz 3D monitor at 60 fps per eye, or at 120 fps in 2D mode. This is 120 input frames per second, not the lies and gimmicks you get on HDTVs (What is it at now? 840 Hz? ROFL!).

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The 4K support in HDMI 1.4 is at 30Hz, at most. I think he has one monitor at 2560x1440 and another at some unspecified resolution at 120 Hz.
HDMI has supported 2560x1440 at 60 Hz for some time now, but my monitor's HDMI input is limited to 1920x1200. It only supports 2560x1440 over dual link DVI.

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