Near perfect, crisp, clear, sharp Blu Ray Movies? - Page 2 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #31 of 47 Old 01-20-2012, 06:18 AM
AVS Special Member
 
jong1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: London, UK
Posts: 1,688
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

And yes, the 24p bug is 1 missed frame is slightly less than 1000 frames. Not constant judder/stutter, tearing, AV sync issues, etc.

Careful assassin. I agree with almost everything you have said in this thread. I also agree constant stutter is not caused by 23.976fps @24hz. However, running at a slightly different frame rate to refresh rate does not lead to one "clean" repeated frame every 1000. Running at different rates leads to the point of frame presentation being "lapped" by vsync every 1000 frames, or ~42 secs. But, due to timer accuracy, frames are presented with slight inaccuracy - normally ~+/-1ms. This means there are ~2ms in every 42ms frame time when alternate frames may fall one side or other of vsync, causing judder. By coincidence this equates to 2 secs in every 42. So rather than 1 clean repeated frame each 42 secs, which you may not notice, you get 1-2secs of variable judder in 42. Not as nice.
jong1 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #32 of 47 Old 01-20-2012, 06:23 AM
AVS Special Member
 
fitbrit's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 2,067
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by jong1 View Post

Careful assassin. I agree with almost everything you have said in this thread. I also agree constant stutter is not caused by 23.976fps @24hz. However, running at a slightly different frame rate to refresh rate does not lead to one "clean" repeated frame every 1000. Running at different rates leads to the point of frame presentation being "lapped" by vsync every 1000 frames, or ~42 secs. But, due to timer accuracy, frames are presented with slight inaccuracy - normally ~+/-1ms. This means there are ~2ms in every 42ms frame time when alternate frames may fall one side or other of vsync, causing judder. By coincidence this equates to 2 secs in every 42. So rather than 1 clean repeated frame each 42 secs you get 1-2secs of variable judder in 42. Not as nice.

Thanks for that explanation; that's exactly what I see. Everything enters a kind of slow motion and catches up again. It's very annoying every 40 to 45 seconds. The wife doesn't notice it.

===========

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
fitbrit is offline  
post #33 of 47 Old 01-20-2012, 06:29 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
assassin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 12,961
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 50 Post(s)
Liked: 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by jong1 View Post

Careful assassin. I agree with almost everything you have said in this thread. I also agree constant stutter is not caused by 23.976fps @24hz. However, running at a slightly different frame rate to refresh rate does not lead to one "clean" repeated frame every 1000. Running at different rates leads to the point of frame presentation being "lapped" by vsync every 1000 frames, or ~42 secs. But, due to timer accuracy, frames are presented with slight inaccuracy - normally ~+/-1ms. This means there are ~2ms in every 42ms frame time when alternate frames may fall one side or other of vsync, causing judder. By coincidence this equates to 2 secs in every 42. So rather than 1 clean repeated frame each 42 secs, which you may not notice, you get 1-2secs of variable judder in 42. Not as nice.

With the exception that many of the Sandy Bridge builds only have this issue about once every 5 minutes now (as opposed to 42 seconds) and are as good as some of the other options without added software/tweaks.

Many of the graphics cards that many AVS users plop into their builds, wipe their hands and walk away, and then consider this problem "fixed" are no better.

Its a very interesting issue.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

assassin is offline  
post #34 of 47 Old 01-20-2012, 06:40 AM
AVS Special Member
 
jong1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: London, UK
Posts: 1,688
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

With the exception that many of the Sandy Bridge builds only have this issue about once every 5 minutes now

??? No way this can be true if playing 23.976fps @24Hz.

That sounds like 23.976Hz but with a slightly inaccurate clock (+/-0.003Hz), which is very common with all GPUs.

Of course Reclock can fix both issues by altering the frame rate to match almost exactly the refresh rate (significantly better than 0.003Hz).
jong1 is offline  
post #35 of 47 Old 01-20-2012, 06:45 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
assassin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 12,961
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 50 Post(s)
Liked: 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by jong1 View Post

??? No way this can be true if playing 23.976fps @24Hz.

That sounds like 23.976Hz but with a slightly inaccurate clock (+/-0.003Hz), which is very common with all GPUs.

Of course Reclock can fix both issues by altering the frame rate to match almost exactly the refresh rate (significantly better than 0.003Hz).

You've seen and read this thread?


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

assassin is offline  
post #36 of 47 Old 01-20-2012, 06:46 AM
AVS Special Member
 
jong1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: London, UK
Posts: 1,688
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Also, beware, more accurate sync between frame rate and refresh rate means the 2ms in 42ms when subject to judder goes on for longer. With judder every 5 minutes it is about 14 secs!

MadVR has code to fix this, not all renderers do, so it is another reason to use it other than simple PQ. MadVR cannot fix the 24Hz problem however, without Reclock's help.
jong1 is offline  
post #37 of 47 Old 01-20-2012, 06:48 AM
AVS Special Member
 
jong1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: London, UK
Posts: 1,688
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

You've seen and read this thread?

I hadn't. Don't spend as much time here as I used to . But, yeah, we agree.
jong1 is offline  
post #38 of 47 Old 01-20-2012, 07:06 AM
AVS Special Member
 
jong1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: London, UK
Posts: 1,688
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 12
....but do beware of saying "the 24p bug is 1 missed frame is slightly less than 1000 frames", which sounds pretty innocuous - due to variable presentation time it is uglier than that.
jong1 is offline  
post #39 of 47 Old 01-20-2012, 07:28 AM
Advanced Member
 
CountryBumkin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 937
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan00 View Post

Is using jriver and red really going to give you better picture and sound. I mean you can only get as good as your source. Lol I have been using wmc and tmt5 can I do better?

The thing about JRiver MC is that they did all the work (like TMT and PowerDVD) to make the setup and install very easy for those that don't want to, or don't know how, to setup software, filters, codecs, etc. JRiver has now been in this business for 30 years. They also work routinely with the creators of LAV and MAdVR (who contrinbute to, and update, MC routinely).

You install JRiver, it downloads the programs it needs and it's ready to go (you select RO or RO+HQ depending on the power of your computer). Of course there are tons of customizations if you want. But out of the box the picture and sound quality is excellent. Edit: And I should add the the program is updated constantly as programs improve (i.e LAV is at ver 0.44 now) and when members request new features. What other commercial software maker does that?

The real benefit of JRiver MC over TMT is all the other stuff it can do. it's not just a movie player, it is world known for its "audio capabilities", it manges/organizes your media files, downloads the meta-data and cover art, gives you mutiple ways to view your collection (10ft UI, on android/gizmo,Ipad, DNLA, Server, etc.) you can set up mulitple zones each with its own video/audio settings. And you can switch back and forth between settings (trying out things) without breaking anything. There's just too much to write here.
Go to http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=66848.0 and/or http://www.jriver.com/index.html to see for your self.
CountryBumkin is offline  
post #40 of 47 Old 01-20-2012, 07:36 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
assassin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 12,961
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 50 Post(s)
Liked: 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by jong1 View Post

....but do beware of saying "the 24p bug is 1 missed frame is slightly less than 1000 frames", which sounds pretty innocuous - due to variable presentation time it is uglier than that.

Again, this can be argued. Not everyone even notices it.

Try the integrated graphics. If you notice anything at all THEN get a discrete card and look at other software. This should be standard practice when building a HTPC, imo.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

assassin is offline  
post #41 of 47 Old 01-20-2012, 07:43 AM
AVS Special Member
 
jong1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: London, UK
Posts: 1,688
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 12
As I said, it does depend on the renderer. A few try to minimise the effect with varying results. MadVR does a good job. And, of course, some people are more or less sensitive. I agree with all those who have said if it looks alright to you, it's alright - don't go looking for trouble! But 0.1% difference = 1 repeated frame in 1000 is too simplistic and downplays the problem.

If you are affected look at MadVR and Reclock to improve things.
jong1 is offline  
post #42 of 47 Old 01-20-2012, 07:46 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
assassin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 12,961
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 50 Post(s)
Liked: 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by jong1 View Post

As I said, it does depend on the renderer. A few try to minimise the effect with varying results. MadVR does a good job. And, of course, some people are more or less sensitive. I agree with all those who have said if it looks alright to you, it's alright - don't go looking for trouble! But 0.1% difference = 1 repeated frame in 1000 is too simplistic and downplays the problem.

If you are affected look at MadVR and Reclock to improve things.

Its not too simplistic if its not noticed.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

assassin is offline  
post #43 of 47 Old 01-20-2012, 07:51 AM
AVS Special Member
 
jong1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: London, UK
Posts: 1,688
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

Its not too simplistic if its not noticed.

Yeah , but what you are saying is, in essence, "if you can spot 1 repeated frame in 1000 you are a better man than me". It makes all that do see it think they must have some kind of "super sight" or else be just imagining things.

In reality, depending on their player and its settings they may well be seeing a burst of iregular judder 1-2 secs in duration. That sounds much more understandable. It's worth saying though that even this is probably only noticeable when it coincides with scene containing a long steady pan.
jong1 is offline  
post #44 of 47 Old 01-20-2012, 07:55 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
assassin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 12,961
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 50 Post(s)
Liked: 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by jong1 View Post

Yeah , but what you are saying is, in essence, "if you can spot 1 repeated frame in 1000 you are a better man than me". It makes all that do see it think they must have some kind of "super sight" or else be just imagining things.

In reality, depending on their player and its settings they may well be seeing a burst of iregular judder 1-2 secs in duration. That sounds much more understandable.

No, what I have said is some notice it, some don't. Some have 60Hz HDTVs and are scrutinizing the display trying to find/notice it. What you didn't add is it depends on their player, settings and specific hardware setup.

Just enjoy the damn movie. If you notice an issue then get a discrete card or added software. But don't scare people away from HTPC and into a streamer or stand alone bluray player because of this "bug".

End of rant.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

assassin is offline  
post #45 of 47 Old 01-20-2012, 07:55 AM
Senior Member
 
mcantu1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 471
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
do the dejudder/deblur settings of the tvs come into play at all here?
mcantu1 is offline  
post #46 of 47 Old 01-20-2012, 08:02 AM
AVS Special Member
 
jong1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: London, UK
Posts: 1,688
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

No, what I have said is some notice it, some don't. Some have 60Hz HDTVs and are scrutinizing the display trying to find/notice it. What you didn't add is it depends on their player, settings and specific hardware setup.

Just enjoy the damn movie. If you notice an issue then get a discrete card or added software. But don't scare people away from HTPC and into a streamer or stand alone bluray player because of this "bug".

End of rant.

I think we are now going in circles . I agree with what you have just said, but I don't think you should be saying "the 24p bug is 1 missed frame in slightly less than 1000 frames". It understates the issue. A still concise, but clearer, way of expressing it would be "the 24p bug is one burst of judder (which may or may not be noticeable) approximately every 42 secs"

ps. if you read my post again you will see that a precisely did say it depends on the player and its settings.
jong1 is offline  
post #47 of 47 Old 01-20-2012, 08:17 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
assassin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 12,961
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 50 Post(s)
Liked: 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by jong1 View Post

I think we are now going in circles . I agree with what you have just said, but I don't think you should be saying "the 24p bug is 1 missed frame in slightly less than 1000 frames". It understates the issue. A still concise, but clearer, way of expressing it would be "the 24p bug is one burst of judder (which may or may not be noticeable) approximately every 42 secs"

ps. if you read my post again you will see that a precisely did say it depends on the player and its settings.

And the HDTV/AV Receiver.

Agree about the circles part.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

assassin is offline  
Reply Home Theater Computers

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off