Do you own a HTPC and rip Bluray? The government likely thinks you are a criminal... - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 123 Old 01-30-2012, 02:37 PM - Thread Starter
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I find this particularly disturbing and utterly idiotic...

(On the front page of our AVS Forum, btw)

http://www.cepro.com/article/kaleide...sh_innovation/

Quote:


Kaleidescape Ruling on DVD Copying Could Quash Innovation
The DVD CCA wields too much power, and will drive consumers to purchase unlicensed movie service and cheap DVD-ripping software overseas.

By Julie Jacobson, January 27, 2012
The DVD Content Copy Association has won its lawsuit against Kaleidescape, maker of high-end movie servers.

A Santa Clara, Calif., court handed down a temporary judgment on Jan. 9 that Kaleidescape breached its contract with the DVD CCA, which licenses the Content Scramble System (CSS) decryption scheme for DVD players.

Kaleidescape lets users copy their DVDs onto a media server, and play back the movies disc-free. The court ruled that the CSS licensing agreement expressly prohibits this functionality - a disc must be present in the player. Period. It doesn't matter if the consumer owns the disc. It doesn't matter if the server is locked down with no way to share movies across a network.

I can't argue with Judge William J. Monahan's recent ruling in the breach-of-contract case, but I can argue these two things: 1) This is a very sad day for innovation in the digital entertainment realm and 2) there's something fishy with the DVD CCA's power.

I should clarify: It is a sad day for innovation when it comes to American-made consumer electronics manufacturers that try to abide by the intent of the law.

Kaleidescape makes expensive servers that transfer DVDs bit-for-bit with CSS encryption intact. The copied content cannot leave the Kaleidescape ecosystem.

It is true, as Judge Monahan noted, that Kaleidescape could have done more to protect content using a DVD carousel or destroy-after-copying scheme. But, really? Such burdens would surely force consumers to instead turn to illegal (by our standards) DVD-ripping products from offshore providers like Slysoft, which distributes AnyDVD ripping software.

It also encourages otherwise legitimate DVD server manufacturers to simply bypass the DVD CCA rather than be burdened by its licensing agreement. The CSS software is readily available, and many server manufacturers use it without licensing it from the DVD CCA. Other providers simply exclude DVD-copying software in their own products but encourage customers to download it from Slysoft and others.

Is this want Hollywood wants?

How many years has it been since movie makers have known about the potential of DVD-ripping abuse? At least a decade. And still, they have done nothing about it, when so much could be done to encourage the enjoyment of their products.

You'd think in 10 years, the DVD CCA and movie makers could come up with a way to thwart piracy and encourage compensation for their work.

I have argued in the past -- as have many others -- that the DVD CCA is an innovation-stifling cartel.

Judge Monahan debunked many of Kaleidescape's claims about the secrecy of the DVD CCA but other potentially antitrust-violating claims should be addressed.

The organization wields too much power and favors its handful of board members, allowing would-be competitors to quash innovations from innovators.

The DVD CCA must have some checks and balances in place to ensure that its cronies allow -- indeed, encourage -- new developments in digital media.

The End for Movie Servers?

It will be a tough road ahead for many of today's movie-server vendors, some of which have licenses from the DVD CCA and some that don't.

The licensees have plenty to fear from the DVD CCA. The recent ruling, though tentative, probably kills all hope that the Kaleidescape model will survive legal challenges.

But that doesn't mean the end for media servers. First, the DVD CCA does not regulate digital rights management (DRM) for Blu-ray discs, just DVDs. Second, we're sure to see more and more movie servers that bypass the DVD CCA altogether.

They may be subject to copyright-protection claims under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) -- as RealNetworks knows all too well -- but so far movie studios seem to have left the litigation to the DVD CCA, except in the case of Real, which had the potential to be a mass-market product. Will the Motion and Pictures Association (MPAA) and others keep their hands off the little guys such as Kaleidescape? Let's cross our fingers.

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post #2 of 123 Old 01-30-2012, 02:41 PM
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I like the fact that after "I" purchase a DVD/Blu Ray it is still not "my" property to do with as I please....So all of my back-ups are illegal ??

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post #3 of 123 Old 01-30-2012, 02:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xfett View Post

I like the fact that after "I" purchase a DVD/Blu Ray it is still not "my" property to do with as I please....So all of my back-ups are illegal ??

Yes. They are illegal.
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post #4 of 123 Old 01-30-2012, 02:53 PM
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Here's what I'd like these idiots to do:

- There MUST be NO encryption on discs that are "bought". You are buying something, you own it. Period. It's nobody's business, what you do with it.
- If I don't "own" the disk outright, and it gets damaged, I want these morons to replace it. Any number of times as necassary.
- Put the encryption on rentals, if you want.
- Don't go after the whole "license" issue. Go after the "purchase" issue. I'm not paying a license fee when buying a "disc", I'm buying it outright. It's my property/asset after that.
- As far as piracy and encryption goes...it's a non issue. You can't stop pirates. Period. Make it simpler and easier for the paying folks, and maybe they won't look for the illegal alternatives.

I know I'm preaching to the quire.....
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post #5 of 123 Old 01-30-2012, 02:57 PM
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I guess you can add that along with speeding (74 in a 65), jay walking and taking an extra free soda home at night sometimes to my criminal record. Oh, I also roll through the stop signs in my neighborhood.

Now, as far as this goes, I don't license the CSS so I am all set. No worries about black helicopters and jack booted thugs with tazers coming through my windows at night. At least no for this.

 

 

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post #6 of 123 Old 01-30-2012, 03:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xfett View Post

I like the fact that after "I" purchase a DVD/Blu Ray it is still not "my" property to
do with as I please....

Bummer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xfett View Post

So all of my back-ups are illegal ??

If you're a US resident, any "back-up" of an encrypted DVD or Blu-Ray Disc
is either useless (if it's still encrypted, since the decryption keys can't be
copied) or illegal (if the encryption has been removed.)

If you possess software to decrypt the disc, that software is also illegal.
See Anti-circumvention.

Don't like it? Tough.
  • Write and call the Motion Picture Ass. of America, Recording Industry Ass.
    of America, American Ass. of Publishers, etc., and demand they stop bribing
    public officials.
  • Write and call your local, state, and federal "representatives", including
    the president and demand a change; if they've accepted money for
    whatever reason from an organization such as one above, and they support
    the DMCA, SOPA, etc., demand they return these bribes.
  • Donate money to organizations, like the EFF, who can exert lobbying and
    legal pressure on these politicians and their customers.
If you and I don't make our voices heard, our rights will remain for sale to the
highest bidder (and that's not us.) The only was to stop this theft is to
convince the politicians that continued malfeasance will prevent their
re-election.
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post #7 of 123 Old 01-30-2012, 03:13 PM
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First off, I just want to say I completely agree with the secondary topic of the article, that CSS (and AACS/BD+) and their licensing restrictions stifle innovation.

Can anybody here imagine a world without the iPod? How many billions of dollars in economic activity has the ability to rip CDs caused/allowed.

Just think of a world where ripping DVDs (and BDs) were perfectly legal, Sony, Pioneer, Vizio, etc, they'd all have movie servers with Gracenote-powered metadata and plug-n-play simplicity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

Yes. They are illegal.

I don't think it's nearly that clear cut. Creating AnyDVD and the like, yes clearly illegal per the DMCA. Selling AnyDVD and the like, yes, clearly illegal per the DMCA.

Buying, using AnyDVD? As an end user, not so clear. There are lots of weasel words in there and it's definitely (in my IANAL reading) clear that end users making rips themselves is illegal.

I suggest anyone interested read this:
http://www.copyright.gov/legislation/dmca.pdf

Quote:
Section 103 of the DMCA adds a new chapter 12 to Title 17 of the U.S. Code. New section 1201 implements the obligation to provide adequate and effective protection against circumvention of technological measures used by copyright owners to protect their works. Section 1201 divides technological measures into two categories: measures that prevent unauthorized access to a copyrighted work and measures that prevent unauthorized copying of a copyrighted work. Making or selling devices or services that are used to circumvent either category of technological measure is prohibited in certain circumstances, described below. As to the act of circumvention in itself, the provision prohibits circumventing the first category of technological measures, but not the second.

This distinction was employed to assure that the public will have the continued ability to make fair use of copyrighted works. Since copying of a work may be a fair use under appropriate circumstances, section 1201 does not prohibit the act of circumventing a technological measure that prevents copying. By contrast, since the fair use doctrine is not a defense to the act of gaining unauthorized access to a work, the act of circumventing a technological measure in order to gain access is prohibited.

A couple things I find interesting about that:

1) "Making or selling devices or services that are used to circumvent either category of technological measure is prohibited in certain circumstances, described below."

This applies to AnyDVD and the like.

2) "As to the act of circumvention in itself, the provision prohibits circumventing the first category of technological measures, but not the second."

My IANAL argument is that the sale of a DVD/Blu-ray explicitly grants access to the movie on the disc thus making ripping copying and not unauthorized access (how can they argue that you're not authorized to access the movie you just paid for).

Just my IANAL thoughts on the issue from our end user perspective. We'll see what happens if it's ever tested in court.

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post #8 of 123 Old 01-30-2012, 03:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kapone View Post

here's what i'd like these idiots to do:

- there must be no encryption on discs that are "bought". You are buying something, you own it. Period. It's nobody's business, what you do with it.
- if i don't "own" the disk outright, and it gets damaged, i want these morons to replace it. Any number of times as necassary.
- put the encryption on rentals, if you want.
- don't go after the whole "license" issue. Go after the "purchase" issue. I'm not paying a license fee when buying a "disc", i'm buying it outright. It's my property/asset after that.
- as far as piracy and encryption goes...it's a non issue. You can't stop pirates. Period. Make it simpler and easier for the paying folks, and maybe they won't look for the illegal alternatives.

I know i'm preaching to the quire.....


+1 ...I think this is going to be an ugly fight.

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post #9 of 123 Old 01-30-2012, 03:32 PM - Thread Starter
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I think this judge was pretty clear...

Quote:
Kaleidescape lets users copy their DVDs onto a media server, and play back the movies disc-free. The court ruled that the CSS licensing agreement expressly prohibits this functionality – a disc must be present in the player. Period. It doesn’t matter if the consumer owns the disc. [/u]



Now let's make this apply to HTPC and many/most on AVS...

HTPC "lets users copy their DVDs onto a media server, and play back the movies disc-free. The court ruled that the CSS licensing agreement expressly prohibits this functionality – a disc must be present in the player. Period. It doesn’t matter if the consumer owns the disc."












Absolutely ridiculous.
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post #10 of 123 Old 01-30-2012, 03:53 PM
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Here's a little mind-bender for you: if you post on avs forum that you have an htpc and rip discs to your server, are you making a public statement that could be used against you in court?
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post #11 of 123 Old 01-30-2012, 04:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbordas View Post

Here's a little mind-bender for you: if you post on avs forum that you have an htpc and rip discs to your server, are you making a public statement that could be used against you in court?

Hey hey now. No reason to accuse AVS users a being criminals.
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post #12 of 123 Old 01-30-2012, 04:26 PM
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no accusation at all. I'm simply trying to follow this line of reasoning to its logical absurd conclusion.
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post #13 of 123 Old 01-30-2012, 04:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

Hey hey now. No reason to accuse AVS users a being criminals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mbordas View Post

no accusation at all. I'm simply trying to follow this line of reasoning to its logical absurd conclusion.


uh , I believe that was a bit of sarcasm with a touch of a rhetorical remark by Assassin You have to love the humor !
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post #14 of 123 Old 01-30-2012, 04:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flocko View Post

uh , I believe that was a bit of sarcasm with a touch of a rhetorical remark by Assassin You have to love the humor !

Precisely. My sarcasm is often missed on avs. I find it amusing and often just let it go.
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post #15 of 123 Old 01-30-2012, 04:49 PM
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How about this - in order to play a DVD or Blu-Ray disc on any commercial player the device has to circumvent the encryption to enable playback. By definition, every DVD and Blu-Ray player ever produced is illegal. If not, then there are clear exceptions to the rule, which leaves it open to interpretation.

I don't have a problem with the owners of digital content trying to protect their property. What I object to is the fact that the laws are so strict it forces honest people to engage in (alleged) criminal activities to enjoy media they paid for legally. The DMCA should be abolished, period! The law doesn't seem to have an issue with people ripping their CD's and converting them to MP3's or other formats to use on portable devices, so how is it any different with video formats?

Perhaps if there was a method whereby consumers could legally rip content to store on a server if the content could be tagged in such a way that it would only work on registered devices, like a PC or media player/extender. Devices could be given a Media Access Key, much like a Tivo, that could then be entered into purchased ripping software. The owner would pay a license fee for each device that the media would be played back on. One device, one Media Access Key, one paid license. The MAK would then be encoded into the media during the ripping process. This would limit any ripped media from being distributed illegally as the media would only be useful on devices that are tagged to use it. I don't know if this is even feasible, but I'm sure some brainiac out there could figure out a way the benefits everyone. Of course, someone would no doubt develop a way to circumvent the MAK tagging and enable ripped media to play back on any device, so we'd be back to square one. OTOH, it might just make it less desirable to distribute ripped material if it was simply easier for everyone to use without being castrated by the DMCA.
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post #16 of 123 Old 01-30-2012, 04:57 PM
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Honestly , how unusual in today's world is all this scuffle so unusual ?

Anyone remember Napster , Kazaa , Lime Wire ? Guess what happened . Ya, you know exactly what happened . The law suites ensued and the sites were shut down and some were reopened as "paid" usage .

Today ... free music is almost all but gone .

Guess what .... all the free video content was only a matter of time to follow.

OH , you can lobby , bitch and groan all you want ( I hate it too) but in the end, the result will be the same.

When the internet became a vast place of exploitation for money , it was only a mater of time before "big brother" moved in to control it .

Now , how are you going to deal with it ? That is the real issue . Not what is happening but how will you adapt and overcome ?

That should be the real content of this thread in my .02 cents

-flocko
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post #17 of 123 Old 01-30-2012, 04:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

Precisely. My sarcasm is often missed on avs. I find it amusing and often just let it go.


Ya , but i don't miss it and will rarely let it go Please keep the humor . Keeps the rest of us "in check"
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post #18 of 123 Old 01-30-2012, 05:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kapone View Post

Here's what I'd like these idiots to do:

- There MUST be NO encryption on discs that are "bought". You are buying something, you own it. Period. It's nobody's business, what you do with it.
- If I don't "own" the disk outright, and it gets damaged, I want these morons to replace it. Any number of times as necassary.
- Put the encryption on rentals, if you want.
- Don't go after the whole "license" issue. Go after the "purchase" issue. I'm not paying a license fee when buying a "disc", I'm buying it outright. It's my property/asset after that.
- As far as piracy and encryption goes...it's a non issue. You can't stop pirates. Period. Make it simpler and easier for the paying folks, and maybe they won't look for the illegal alternatives.

I know I'm preaching to the quire.....

But who contributes more to your senators campaign, you or sony-MGM-RIAA-etc.
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post #19 of 123 Old 01-30-2012, 05:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

I think this judge was pretty clear...

You may be missing an important part, the Judge didn't rule that ripping the discs was illegal, he ruled that Kaleidescape violated their licensing agreement with DVD CCA, a license agreement which prohibits playback without the disc in the player.

Quote:
Now let's make this apply to HTPC and many/most on AVS...


HTPC "lets users copy their DVDs onto a media server, and play back the movies disc-free. The court ruled that the CSS licensing agreement expressly prohibits this functionality - a disc must be present in the player. Period. It doesn't matter if the consumer owns the disc."

I don't know about the rest of you but I haven't written any DVD playback (or ripping) software and I have never signed a licensing agreement with DVD CCA. The software I use to rip my DVDs does not have a licensing agreement with DVD CCA. In order to be in violation of a licensing agreement you have to have agreed to it (ie signed it).

I have not. And paradoxically, if Kaleidescape had not taken "the high road" and tried to do things right, ie if they had not bothered with the DVD CCA license, they would not be in this particular predicament.

Now, whether ripping DVDs/BDs for personal use is in violation of US Copyright code, well that's a separate issue and one that, AFAIK has never been ruled upon in court.

Quote:
Absolutely ridiculous.

I agree that the state of media playback, space/media-shifting, and the lot is ridiculous, but as a practical matter, the ruling really isn't that surprising. Kaleidescape signed the DVD CCA license agreement, and by doing that agreed to it's terms, one of which is to not play CSS protected content without a disc in the machine, and they clearly violate that.

What I find interesting though is that their Blu-ray solution doesn't suffer the same "problem", that solution includes a "vault" for storage of BDs so that BDs are in fact in the player while playing the rip back.
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post #20 of 123 Old 01-30-2012, 05:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flocko View Post

Honestly , how unusual in today's world is all this scuffle so unusual ?

Anyone remember Napster , Kazaa , Lime Wire ? Guess what happened . Ya, you know exactly what happened . The law suites ensued and the sites were shut down and some were reopened as "paid" usage .

Today ... free music is almost all but gone .

Guess what .... all the free video content was only a matter of time to follow.

OH , you can lobby , bitch and groan all you want ( I hate it too) but in the end, the result will be the same.

When the internet became a vast place of exploitation for money , it was only a mater of time before "big brother" moved in to control it .

Now , how are you going to deal with it ? That is the real issue . Not what is happening but how will you adapt and overcome ?

That should be the real content of this thread in my .02 cents

-flocko

And file sharing of copyright material should be and is illegal but this shouldn't allow companies or governments to control the interenet. .02

P.S. unless you are file sharing I don't think anybody is going to go after you for backing up your movies.
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post #21 of 123 Old 01-30-2012, 05:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffkro View Post

And file sharing of copyright material should be and is illegal but this shouldn't allow companies or governments to control the interenet. .02

P.S. unless you are file sharing I don't think anybody is going to go after you for backing up your movies.

I hear what you are saying.

But I also think that if the government or record industry thinks that ripping legitimately bought media to a hard drive is a copyright infringement by the average Joe AVS user (which they WILL argue if they haven't already) then why bother even buying anything?

If its all illegal anyway then I think this makes pirating and downloading a more attractive option.

Of course I am against any and all illegal activity including anything you can do on any HTPC. These things are dangerous and need to be strictly controlled and monitored by the Feds.
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post #22 of 123 Old 01-30-2012, 05:13 PM
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The best way to fight these guys is to stop supporting them. I stopped buying music after some of the absurdly high penalties they were nailing average people with and now I can simply refuse to buy any of their content. If they don't believe you own the disc, fine just rent it instead of buying it. Rent instead of taking the family to the movie theater, etc. They forget when they make the customer the bad guy the customer can choose not to support them.
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post #23 of 123 Old 01-30-2012, 05:14 PM
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That's the whole point !! If folks would have just used common sense to begin with and all this crap did not become so monopolized then we would not be in this thread right now , now would we .

Everyone was fine with privately sharing music and other D/l (s) . Copy a song for mom and all is good .

But that is not how it ended up , is it . People had to create illegal sites and make millions and interject tons of corruption and wonder why the Uncle had to get in the mix .

At some point in this thread politics are going to come into play. Social....m is what you are really faced with .

Now , what ?
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post #24 of 123 Old 01-30-2012, 05:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

I hear what you are saying.

But I also think that if the government or record industry thinks that ripping legitimately bought media to a hard drive is a copyright infringement by the average Joe AVS user (which they WILL argue if they haven't already) then why bother even buying anything?

If its all illegal anyway then I think this makes pirating and downloading a more attractive option.

Of course I am against any and all illegal activity including anything you can do on any HTPC. These things are dangerous and need to be strictly controlled and monitored by the Feds.

I'm kind of leaning towards buying a huge blu-ray collection is a bad idea anyways. Eventually were all going to be watching our content from subscription based services, like netflix, anyways. I remember people recording every episode of their favorite show on VHS, seems pretty silly now.
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post #25 of 123 Old 01-30-2012, 05:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

I hear what you are saying.

But I also think that if the government or record industry thinks that ripping legitimately bought media to a hard drive is a copyright infringement by the average Joe AVS user (which they WILL argue if they haven't already) then why bother even buying anything?

If its all illegal anyway then I think this makes pirating and downloading a more attractive option.

Of course I am against any and all illegal activity including anything you can do on any HTPC. These things are dangerous and need to be strictly controlled and monitored by the Feds.


And the revolving door continues .... exactly . The cart leading the horse .

Btw .... this is a really good thread and a great way for folks to express there opinions and thoughts
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post #26 of 123 Old 01-30-2012, 05:41 PM
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Stop buying their content, our money is what powers their profits. If no one buys their products they have no products to hold over us.
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post #27 of 123 Old 01-30-2012, 05:49 PM
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I love these arguments where people think that for $10 they can own a movie that cost $20,000,000 to make. Rather obviously there are limits to what you can do with the movie. For example, clearly you can't rent a theater and show your copy of the movie charging everyone $10 to see it.

And the idea that this thing is locked down is nonsense. Once you remove the disc, it's that disc is not locked down.

Even so, I would like to see a rule where as long as you owned the disc, and hadn't lent it out while it was on the system, that it wouldn't be criminal or even subject to a civil penalty.
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post #28 of 123 Old 01-30-2012, 05:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffkro View Post

The best way to fight these guys is to stop supporting them. I stopped buying music after some of the absurdly high penalties they were nailing average people with and now I can simply refuse to buy any of their content. If they don't believe you own the disc, fine just rent it instead of buying it. Rent instead of taking the family to the movie theater, etc. They forget when they make the customer the bad guy the customer can choose not to support them.

That sounds great in theory, problem is I don't think that would send the right message. The content owners continually get the wrong message. They'll see sales decline, and illegal downloads stay the same or increase, and they'll conclude that more and more people are pirating, and will fight for more and more restrictions, and with their connections vs ours, they'll win that fight.

Unfortunately it's really a no-win situation we're in. If we buy stuff it it supports the status quo, if we don't buy it, it "proves" the content owners point.

So I've taken to the practical, pragmatic approach. I do the right thing, I rent from Netflix that which I don't care to re-watch, and that which I do want to re-watch I buy. And then I use available tools to make that which I buy work the way I want.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #29 of 123 Old 01-30-2012, 06:45 PM
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http://www.dailytech.com/Impeachable...ticle23882.htm

"The purpose of diplomacy is to prolong a crisis." Spock, Mark of Gideon, TOS
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post #30 of 123 Old 01-30-2012, 07:27 PM
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Told u it would go political .

That didn't long
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