Poll: Best PQ among GPU vendors - Page 4 - AVS Forum
View Poll Results: Which is better for standard 1080p for HTPC (in alphabetical order)?
1. AMD/ATI 0 0%
2. Intel HD 2/3000 0 0%
3. Nvidia 0 0%
4. I can't tell the difference 0 0%
5. I've never compared 0 0%
Voters: 0. You may not vote on this poll

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post #91 of 112 Old 02-21-2012, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

I am connected to an Onkyo AVR first- then Optoma projector.

I also run it to a Plasma TV in other room.

I used digital video essentials and also the set up built into media center to set my black levels and white levels.

With my Nvidia card this was an issue- but it's great with my Radeon.

My choice for Radeon is not related at all to PQ.


it's about performance.

2 x 6870's for $260 will blow away anything Nvidia has in modern games.


ahh alright I see what you mean. Definitely gaming performance I still remember when the 7800GTX came out and stopped ATi dead in their tracks for awhile lol

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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post #92 of 112 Old 02-21-2012, 01:15 PM
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Another vote for i can`t tell the difference. Just got an Pentium G620 for my main HTPC to replace my Zacate and at least for 1080p content i can`t see any difference between the Zacate and the HD 2000 graphics, both with all post-processing turned off by default and standing half a meter from a 60 inch Pioneer Kuro calibrated using a Spyder colormeter.

I also have some interlanced disks and files (concerts on Blu Ray which are 1080i and some TV Show eps from "the internet" in their original .ts container straight out of the tuner), but i`m not sure if the comparison will be fair, the Zacate only does Motion Adaptive deinterlancing while other AMD card like the 6450 do VA.
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post #93 of 112 Old 02-21-2012, 03:02 PM
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For 1080p, no I cannot tell the difference. I suppose that's what the initial question is -- 1080p.

However, my experience (as invalid as such a thing is on an internet forum) with material that needs deinterlacing is that my HD5670 card does a much better job than the HD2000 IGP in my i3-2100. The difference was enough that neighbors over for a football game noticed weirdness with the i3-2100 alone but no one ever commented after I dropped the HD5670 in. The PQ of the i3-2100 was not acceptable.

Those are the only two I've compared side-by-side in the same system with the same material and the only difference was in the deinterlacing.

 

 

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post #94 of 112 Old 02-21-2012, 03:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JukeBox360 View Post

What about two 6850's?

Not bad.

I actually have 6870's. Not 6780's. Lol. Typo.

They are XFX, $129 after rebate.

You can get 6850's around the same price.. perhaps even a bit lower.

Very good overall performance.

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post #95 of 112 Old 02-21-2012, 07:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post


Not bad.

I actually have 6870's. Not 6780's. Lol. Typo.

They are XFX, $129 after rebate.

You can get 6850's around the same price.. perhaps even a bit lower.

Very good overall performance.

Was debating two of those or one GTX580
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post #96 of 112 Old 02-21-2012, 07:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post

You asked for peoples opinions. If you respond to every post with "but your opinion is wrong", then you might as well not ask in the first place.

Who did I say was wrong? I'm defending my opinion... and for the last time, this thread was Assassin's idea... not mine.


Quote:


Opinions are not facts. Not yours, not anyone elses. Everyone has their own, and it won't change because you quote them some review you dug up somewhere.

I'm not trying to change people's opinion. I'm defending my opinion. Do you understand the difference?


Quote:


Someone else came up with a review that claimed the opposite, called out ATI/AMD for enabling needless post-processing, and you dismissed it for arbitrary reasons. Oh well.

Oh well nothing. It wasn't a review of the the GPU's picture quality, but a review on transcoding. Did you even look at the article?

The actual reviews for PQ do the comparison on level ground... or at least I'd hope they would.


Quote:


Several people (including me) have explained how post-processing affects the scores, and how all vendors offer the same post-processing. Yet, for some reason, you still claim AMD is that much superior because they offer post-processing by default. This escapes any logic.

What are you even talking about? You extrapolated a whole lot there.


Quote:


If you limit yourself to one vendor, its your loss.

I don't. I have a an Intel based system in the bedroom, and I just replaced my Nvidia 240 card in the living room with a Radeon 6770.

Got any more assumptions?


Quote:


If you insist on using excessive amounts of post-processing, then sure, maybe AMDs post-processing is better (i can't say, I'm not touching that stuff), but if you value pure image quality, the way it was meant to be viewed, there really isn't a difference.

Not according to the HQV scores. There is a difference.

And as for post-processing... what is wrong with denoise, deblocking, etc? This is what most high-end video processors and CE devices do.

"the way it was meant to be viewed..." I love this part too. So you don't do any scaling of non 1080p video? You don't do any cadence detection/pulldown of interlaced material? Do you adjust the resolution and refresh rate for every video? You watch 480i DVD material at 480i resolution/timing?

Cause.... you know... all of that is "processed" by the GPU.


Quote:


If i ever wanted post-processing, i would actually enable it in the TV, and not be at the mercy of some GPU driver.

Good for you. Not every TV has this capability.
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post #97 of 112 Old 02-21-2012, 07:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darin View Post

I'm still not even clear on what your stance is. Are you suggesting that with all post-processing turned off, you can see a difference and consistently observe a better picture from ATI?

Yes, I have observed the difference, and professional reviewers have observed it as well in HQV tests.


Quote:


Or are you simply stating that you like ATI post processing?

I like some of the post-processing too. Some of it, when tempered with reality (not cranked all the way up) really makes a difference that other people notice as well.

Quote:


If so, that is certainly your prerogative. I like lima beans on top of buttered bread, all covered with ketchup. But I'm not going to spend an entire thread trying to convince other people they should eat it.

I'll try anything once.

Let me repeat it once again... This thread was Assassin's idea, and the only "convincing" I am doing is simply defending my position. I'd hope people could defend theirs.

What ever happened to reasoned debate? Why must everyone take personal offense to someone else's opinion?
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post #98 of 112 Old 02-21-2012, 08:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Puwaha View Post

Oh well nothing. It wasn't a review of the the GPU's picture quality, but a review on transcoding. Did you even look at the article?

The actual reviews for PQ do the comparison on level ground... or at least I'd hope they would.

I looked at the article and I also read it. They were addressing the quality of decoding. The step that happens before any transcoding even takes place and 100% relevant to this thread topic.

As for assumptions, I assume that you know Nev is the person who has coded the highest quality free DirectShow decoder filters to date. He does have a little more than "some idea" of what he is saying.
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post #99 of 112 Old 02-21-2012, 08:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vladd View Post

I looked at the article and I also read it. They were addressing the quality of decoding. The step that happens before any transcoding even takes place and 100% relevant to this thread topic.

Right... but did you look at the screen captures? Was the AMD the worst of the three?

Quote:


As for assumptions, I assume that you know Nev is the person who has coded the highest quality free DirectShow decoder filters to date. He does have a little more than "some idea" of what he is saying.

When have I said he doesn't have "some idea" of what he is saying? Am I not allowed to have my own opinion?
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post #100 of 112 Old 02-21-2012, 10:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Puwaha View Post

Right... but did you look at the screen captures? Was the AMD the worst of the three?

From the tomshardware review, the three screenshots from the Iron Man movie:-

AMD - here.
Intel - here.
nVidia - here.

You do not have to be a genius to see that the AMD image is destroyed by that demon from hell called 'Dynamic Contrast'. Suffice to say, the AMD image quality is the worst because it shows incorrect color information. For example, the background hill isn't supposed to be strong pale blue in color, instead it should should have been grayer just like the way Jon Favreau intended it to be. If he wants the hills to look like the way it is in AMD image, he would have asked the guys at Industrial Light & Magic to do his bidding.
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post #101 of 112 Old 02-21-2012, 11:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Puwaha View Post

Who did I say was wrong? I'm defending my opinion

You don't get it.
When you open a thread to ask for peoples opinions, there is no ground to "defend" yours, because that'll give everyone the impression that theirs is wrong and only yours is valid.
When you ask for opinions, then let them stay as is.

PS:
It also doesn't matter whos idea it was. You posted it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Puwaha View Post

So you don't do any scaling of non 1080p video? You don't do any cadence detection/pulldown of interlaced material? Do you adjust the resolution and refresh rate for every video? You watch 480i DVD
material at 480i resolution/timing?

I change the refresh rate for every movie, indeed (rather let my player do it for me)
Scaling is of course performed, but not by the GPUs built-in algorithms, because those are low quality in both AMD and NVIDIA (usually just bilinear scaling). Instead, i use madVR which uses its own custom scalers, independent of the GPUs implementation.

Again, this thread was about 1080p.
DVD content was "meant" to be watched on rather old TVs, so something needs to upscale them, rather do it myself then let the TV do it.
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post #102 of 112 Old 02-22-2012, 07:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post

You don't get it.
When you open a thread to ask for peoples opinions, there is no ground to "defend" yours, because that'll give everyone the impression that theirs is wrong and only yours is valid.
When you ask for opinions, then let them stay as is.

So... are we going to discuss PQ, or are you going to continue to take this route?


Quote:


I change the refresh rate for every movie, indeed (rather let my player do it for me)
Scaling is of course performed, but not by the GPUs built-in algorithms, because those are low quality in both AMD and NVIDIA (usually just bilinear scaling). Instead, i use madVR which uses its own custom scalers, independent of the GPUs implementation.

Yeah... you know I should have known.


Quote:


Again, this thread was about 1080p.
DVD content was "meant" to be watched on rather old TVs, so something needs to upscale them, rather do it myself then let the TV do it.

Yes, it's rather unfortunate that I posted the 1080p bit... but that was Assassin's request.

Now... do you agree that there is other video out there beyond 1080p sources?
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post #103 of 112 Old 02-23-2012, 12:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Puwaha View Post

So... are we going to discuss PQ, or are you going to continue to take this route?

There isn't anything to discuss.
You asserted your opinion, so did many other people, and its quite obvious that no discussion can change any of that.
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post #104 of 112 Old 03-08-2012, 08:04 PM
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Well, when i setup my i3 2105 I thought: PQ is MUCH better than ion 330.

But when I try put a HD6870 i get surprised. In my opinion it is even better than intel hd3000. The range of colours seems bigger (to much difference of tones in same colour and to much colours beetween white and grey, etc etc) and the image is "faster", more fluid. The image seems a little "slow" for me in hd3000 and I thought that was because my tv (panasonic plasma fullhd) is a little old. But with hd6870 that thing disappear.

(sorry about my english)
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post #105 of 112 Old 03-09-2012, 05:16 AM
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I have tried all of the options and have consistently found AMD gives better picture quality. They are more consistent with color space and pixel format. Their drivers every now and then don't retain my setting for picture quality. I have compared my crossfired 6870's to an Nvidia GTX 560 TI (colorspace issues, 3D not as good due to limited depth and popout without constant registry hacks, 3D gaming was easier) and an Intel HD3000 on my Core i5 2500K (colorspace, headache with DXVA on Plex and XBMC, no gaming). Colorspace issues usually arise from going through an AVR. My signal chain goes source to Integra DTR-40.3 to HDMI splitter to Acer H5360 projector or 42" LG LCD (Opus). Both calibrated with each respective card and materials. AMD for picture all the way. Also Nvidia had constant HDMI handshakes each time a movie started or even a youtube video would play in fullscreen. Gaming was easier with the Nvidia in terms of driver stability, but with crossfired 6870's, the performance to value ratio is through the roof for the price and Nvidia can't touch that.
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post #106 of 112 Old 03-09-2012, 02:18 PM
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To whom compares the three options: Why don't you put screen caps?

Chronical Tester
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post #107 of 112 Old 03-10-2012, 01:35 AM
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This is how I feel about the situation from the numerous video card reviews I've read.
CPU software video decoding seems to produce the best PQ and the best CPU comes from Intel. After you decode it Nvidia seems to render the PQ best with their VP5 video engine but limited in post processing capabilities compared to AMD/ATI. Intel uses its internal EVR Scaler for video so if it is similar to MPC HD's EVR then you know what kind of picture you're getting unless you use madvr. Nvidia also seems to give better driver stability compared to AMD/ATI but AMD/ATI gives better fps in games in terms of price/performance ratio.
If you compare the control panel of AMD/ATI to Nvidia you can see AMD/ATI's is probably more extensive and you're likely to screw up the drivers with bugs using too many options in control panel. Intel's graphics drivers I have no idea but I don't think they are really experienced in making graphics drivers.

So it is pretty much in the air.
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post #108 of 112 Old 03-10-2012, 07:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JukeBox360 View Post

Was debating two of those or one GTX580

I would go single card for now... since the price drops are extreme.

Both Nvidia and AMD have new models on the top end launching... and getting the buzz.

This means yesterday's top ends are now today's best values.

If you reach a bit and get a single card- you could always add a second super cheap later.

I doubt you would even need it.

Honestly. I am debating removing my dual cards and splitting them up between too machines.

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post #109 of 112 Old 03-12-2012, 11:14 PM
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Tried all 3, end up returning the AMD and went back to my Nvidia.
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post #110 of 112 Old 03-13-2012, 06:38 AM
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I agree with the majority of voters that AMD is currently the better option in general considering all the factors.

It's close enough, however, that it doesn't matter too much and you can go either way.
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post #111 of 112 Old 03-13-2012, 08:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beetlesnack View Post

I agree with the majority of voters that AMD is currently the better option in general considering all the factors.

It's close enough, however, that it doesn't matter too much and you can go either way.

33 vs 32 is the majority? What about the others for "no difference", "intel" or "nvidia". The poll was to prove AMD/ATI's superiority over all others and I think this definitively proves that it is not superior, if anything, and is merely equivalent.

There is no clear winner. And most of the videophiles in this forum have posted that there is no difference. So I think you can safely try the iGPU and see what you think. If for any reason you aren't happy buy a card from a place that accepts returns and try it out. Chances are that you may return the card when you too see there is no noticeable difference.
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post #112 of 112 Old 03-13-2012, 08:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

33 vs 32 is the majority? What about the others for "no difference", "intel" or "nvidia". The poll was to prove AMD/ATI's superiority over all others and I think this definitively proves that it is not superior, if anything, and is merely equivalent.

There is no clear winner. And most of the videophiles in this forum have posted that there is no difference. So I think you can safely try the iGPU and see what you think. If for any reason you aren't happy buy a card from a place that accepts returns and try it out. Chances are that you may return the card when you too see there is no noticeable difference.

I agree, best way to do it is if you could have a friend do one then the other blindly. I know when I took the gpu out of my htpc (6570 then a gt430) I saw no difference so I sold it.
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