I know there's black crush with NVIDIA, but this...? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 24 Old 02-19-2012, 02:54 PM - Thread Starter
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I've got a Samsung C7000 LED TV hooked up via HDMI to a Denon 1612 AVR and that in turn to a GTX 560 video card, Windows 7, latest drivers.

Now, I downloaded the AVS calibration disc, and when I run it, with default settings, I can see NONE of the black bars.

The only way to see anything is to go to NVIDIA's control panel, and in the video color settings, switch to NVIDIA settings, and enable dynamic contrast enhancement, which I despise, and even then, bars 11 and below are not visible.
Note that it's not a matter of brightness/gamma/backlight. I've turned stuff up to levels where black becomes light grey and the lower bars are just not there.

My desktop on the other hand, apparently is able to reproduce black levels all the way to zero.

Now, the things I've tried:

On the TV
- Setting the TV's HDMI input to PC (thus supposedly accepting levels 0-255): no change
- Switching HDMI black level to Normal and Low: no change
- Full settings reset

On the PC
- Setting the color format to YCbCr444: no change
- Setting the video color range to both 0-255 and 16-235: no change
- Using a PC (ie not HD) resolution. This somewhat seems to improves things as with NVIDIA dynamic contrast enhancement enabled I can see up to bar 9 instead of 12, but using DCE is out of the question anyway.
- Switching video players (tried PowerDVD 11 and TMT 5): no change
- Gamma correction is able to make the lower blacks appear, but then I'm destroying white levels

Relevant settings on the TV:
- Dynamic contrast off
- Black tone off
- Shadow detail -2 (default)

Any ideas what may be wrong?
I've heard of black crush, but this goes beyond anything I've seen reported.

I'll REALLY appreciate any help.
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post #2 of 24 Old 02-19-2012, 06:38 PM
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Below is the only way I could fix the problem. Its very strange, there's no way to fix it within the nvidia control panel.

http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?s...&#entry1005774

Can your HTPC Media Center / DVR Do this??

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post #3 of 24 Old 02-19-2012, 06:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks a lot for answering.
I had tried that (after I made this topic) and it didn't seem to make a difference.
Anyway, in case you're interested, I made a little program that makes that modification to the INF for you.

In any case, I seem to find that selecting no DCE and selecting limited color range produces good video output. The end of both white and black levels are clipped, but it's a couple of values beyond the standard's limits, so it's OK.

My problem before that led me to think it didn't make a difference was that I thought applying the change took effect immediately, while in fact it requires a restart of the video player.
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post #4 of 24 Old 02-19-2012, 11:58 PM
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For the record, if you watch movies, you're not supposed to see the black bars below 16 (or the white bars above 235)
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post #5 of 24 Old 02-20-2012, 01:36 AM
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Have you considered that the Denon 1612 simply may not pass 0-255, there are many AVR's that do not.

Jason
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post #6 of 24 Old 02-20-2012, 01:53 AM
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Try Media player classic home cinema. Go to rendering settings, output range and adjust your 0-255 or 16-235 output. Just make sure it's set to the same output as your video card.

I've tried both TMT and Powerdvd. They both crush the blacks by default. I haven't figured out how to get either to display properly. So now I use MPC-HC or the Potplayer with Lav filters and Madvr.
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post #7 of 24 Old 02-20-2012, 06:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaGamePimp View Post

Have you considered that the Denon 1612 simply may not pass 0-255, there are many AVR's that do not.

Thanks for the suggestion.
I did think of that, but I disregarded that possibility for two reasons:
1. My AVR doesn't have video processing. One easy way to tell those is that they can take for instance component input and put it out through HDMI. Mine doesn't.
2. In this test I can see even the lowest levels on the TV with no issues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post

For the record, if you watch movies, you're not supposed to see the black bars below 16 (or the white bars above 235)

Well, yeah, but the information should make it to the television, and not get destroyed on the PC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joesyah View Post

Try Media player classic home cinema. Go to rendering settings, output range and adjust your 0-255 or 16-235 output. Just make sure it's set to the same output as your video card.

Will do. Thanks a lot for the suggestion.
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post #8 of 24 Old 02-20-2012, 06:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tHE_uKER View Post

I've got a Samsung C7000 LED TV hooked up via HDMI to a Denon 1612 AVR and that in turn to a GTX 560 video card, Windows 7, latest drivers.

Now, I downloaded the AVS calibration disc, and when I run it, with default settings, I can see NONE of the black bars.

The only way to see anything is to go to NVIDIA's control panel, and in the video color settings, switch to NVIDIA settings, and enable dynamic contrast enhancement, which I despise, and even then, bars 11 and below are not visible.
Note that it's not a matter of brightness/gamma/backlight. I've turned stuff up to levels where black becomes light grey and the lower bars are just not there.

My desktop on the other hand, apparently is able to reproduce black levels all the way to zero.

Now, the things I've tried:

On the TV
- Setting the TV's HDMI input to PC (thus supposedly accepting levels 0-255): no change
- Switching HDMI level to Normal and Low: no change
- Full settings reset

On the PC
- Setting the color format to YCbCr444: no change
- Setting the video color range to both 0-255 and 16-235: no change
- Using a PC (ie not HD) resolution. This somewhat seems to improves things as with NVIDIA dynamic contrast enhancement enabled I can see up to bar 9 instead of 12, but using DCE is out of the question anyway.
- Switching video players (tried PowerDVD 11 and TMT 5): no change
- Gamma correction is able to make the lower blacks appear, but then I'm destroying white levels

Relevant settings on the TV:
- Dynamic contrast off
- Black tone off
- Shadow detail -2 (default)

Any ideas what may be wrong?
I've heard of black crush, but this goes beyond anything I've seen reported.

I'll REALLY appreciate any help.

Irecently got my tv calibrated andit was a pita to get the htpc working with it. Since your using nvidia id highlyrefommend using riva tuner to adjust brightness and contrast. Lots of folks can never seem to get the stock control panrl to save the settings when you restart.

Now what exactly are your settings on the tv? Brightness contrast etc? Room conditions? Also beingits a samsung it might have hdmi black levels in the picture options. If so try toogling them. If i remember correctly the low settingis for 16 235 and normal is 0 255. Also try settingthe brightness right on the tv too first.

After that try using rivatuner to set brightness up on your htpc.

If you need more help feel free to pm me. Like i said, it took me forever toget my htpc to output correctly but once i got it working the quality is stunning

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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post #9 of 24 Old 02-20-2012, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tHE_uKER View Post

Thanks for the suggestion.
I did think of that, but I disregarded that possibility for two reasons:
1. My AVR doesn't have video processing. One easy way to tell those is that they can take for instance component input and put it out through HDMI. Mine doesn't.

All of the xx12 models had a bug where BTB/WTW was being clipped. It was fixed with a firmware update (July 2011 I believe).
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post #10 of 24 Old 02-20-2012, 11:04 AM
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You can also make a custom resolution to force the Nvidia card to output 0-255, besides the driver trick. According to Nev, that 0-255/16-235 switch doesn`t actually change the output sent over HDMI on Nvidia, only the internal processing. Setting up a custom resolution forces 0-255 over HDMI
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post #11 of 24 Old 02-20-2012, 01:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vladd View Post

All of the xx12 models had a bug where BTB/WTW was being clipped. It was fixed with a firmware update (July 2011 I believe).

Good to know. Unfortunately, my model is not a networked one, so I can't update.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenEyez View Post

You can also make a custom resolution to force the Nvidia card to output 0-255, besides the driver trick. According to Nev, that 0-255/16-235 switch doesn`t actually change the output sent over HDMI on Nvidia, only the internal processing. Setting up a custom resolution forces 0-255 over HDMI

I had tried that too. I can't add 1920x1080 since it tells me that resolution already exists, so I added 1920x1079, but can't see it making a difference either.

In any case, I'm kinda happy having got my setup to correctly reproduce 16-235.
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post #12 of 24 Old 02-20-2012, 01:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tHE_uKER View Post

Good to know. Unfortunately, my model is not a networked one, so I can't update.

I would take the time and drop it off at a service center to get it flashed, it will eliminate a lot of frustrations. A lot of TV repair centers probably can do this as long as they are authorized.
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post #13 of 24 Old 02-20-2012, 01:57 PM
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I think you might have misunderstood what Nev was saying. The driver hack definitely does change the output over HDMI to RGB 0-255 for builtin, standard resolutions 1920x1080P @24.000Hz (which is what I use), 23.976Hz, and 3D 24Hz. Without this hack, the standard resolutions had a weird RGB with 16-235 brightness range. It wasn't even YCbCr 16-235. In order to avoid having to do this driver hack, people can make non-standard display resolutions/timings. This might be okay for hardcore bitperfect streaming audio fanatics who sometimes make slightly modified custom resolutions to hit 23.976fps.

Having said that, if the computer isn't used for PC graphics with native 0-255 brightness range; using it ONLY for bluray/TV, it would be better to keep all output at 16-235 YCbCr video; which wouldn't require a driver hack.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenEyez View Post

You can also make a custom resolution to force the Nvidia card to output 0-255, besides the driver trick. According to Nev, that 0-255/16-235 switch doesn`t actually change the output sent over HDMI on Nvidia, only the internal processing. Setting up a custom resolution forces 0-255 over HDMI


Can your HTPC Media Center / DVR Do this??

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post #14 of 24 Old 03-17-2012, 08:12 AM
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Had similar problem with my htpc to projector with nvidia driver for GTX 570 card while watching movie. Unstable custom resolution via nvidia driver, black level crushed etc.

Finally solved the issue by installing powerstrip 3.9. Now it is rock solid, stable black level, custom resolution via powerstrip remains stable and blu ray movie is amazingly beautiful.

Try it and see for yourself....

Cheers!
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post #15 of 24 Old 03-25-2013, 02:27 PM
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Here is how to get you Blacks BLACK
I have Nvidia 670 card and It is working like a charm.
Make sure you select the Monitor/HDTV that you want to calibrate.
I have new drivers 314.22 now so I can give some advice where to change these settings:
1. Go to "Nvidia control panel"
2. Under "VIDEO" go to "Adjust Video Color Settings"
3. Uner Point 2 select "With the NVIDIA settings"
4. Go to "Advanced" and to your eyes will show tab called "Dynamic Range" where you can change it
between "Limited" (16-235) and Full (0-255)
I also ticked two other options below "Dynamic contrast enhancement" and "Color enhancement"

It is visible change on your TV when you make these changes !!!!!
Go to your TV and change these option whilst playing movie. Changes are visible and give each movie real kick !!!!
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post #16 of 24 Old 03-25-2013, 02:28 PM
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Here is how to get you Blacks BLACK
I have Nvidia 670 card and It is working like a charm.
Make sure you select the Monitor/HDTV that you want to calibrate.
I have new drivers 314.22 now so I can give some advice where to change these settings:
1. Go to "Nvidia control panel"
2. Under "VIDEO" go to "Adjust Video Color Settings"
3. Uner Point 2 select "With the NVIDIA settings"
4. Go to "Advanced" and to your eyes will show tab called "Dynamic Range" where you can change it
between "Limited" (16-235) and Full (0-255)
I also ticked two other options below "Dynamic contrast enhancement" and "Color enhancement"

It is visible change on your TV when you make these changes !!!!!
Go to your TV and change these option whilst playing movie. Changes are visible and give each movie real kick !!!!
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post #17 of 24 Old 03-27-2013, 12:56 AM
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Hmm, I tried 314.22 driver + GTX 650 Ti. I still get Limited-Range RGB.

Anybody else succeeded with method?
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post #18 of 24 Old 03-27-2013, 01:21 AM
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The NVIDIA options panel does not offer you an option to send Full RGB over HDMI.
The easiest way is to use the tool which comes with madVR and changes the setting in the registry, or use custom resolutions, otherwise there are guides how to do it manually spread over the web.

The "Dynamic Range" setting in the control panel only controls how video renderers (EVR) behave, not what actually goes over the wire.
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post #19 of 24 Old 04-24-2013, 09:31 PM
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16-235 is the CORRECT setting for watching movies. 0-255 will not show you the movie the way it is supposed to be seen. So, set it to 16-235 and calibrate the TV and HTPC at that setting. Same goes with enhanced contrast and colour. These are NOT supposed to be checked, otherwise you are introducing tones and colours that are not in the movie.

Note that you need to calibrate with the HTPC in video fullscreen mode. Dont do it with a movie in a non-maximised window and the nvidia control panel in another window. You need the video full screen and you need to switch back and forth from the video and control panel (alt-tab) until things are good.

I have nvidia, TMT and PowerDVD.
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post #20 of 24 Old 04-25-2013, 12:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rat_in_wgtn View Post

16-235 is the CORRECT setting for watching movies. 0-255 will not show you the movie the way it is supposed to be seen. So, set it to 16-235 and calibrate the TV and HTPC at that setting

I'm sorry, but this is not true.
I could go into the technical explanation why the video will look the same with 16-235 or 0-255 if everything is setup correctly, but i don't think that would help anyone here.

The important part is that BOTH your TV and HTPC are configured for the same setting. If your HTPC outputs 0-255, your TV needs to be configured to accept 0-255, and the same goes for 16-235 of course. If there is a discrepancy in the configuration, the image will look bad.
But if the configuration is done properly, and both input and output match, the image will be fine, and if your TV is calibrated properly, it'll be very much the same in both modes.
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post #21 of 24 Old 04-25-2013, 04:37 AM
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How to verify that the madVR tool has in fact made the change to 0-255 and how to undo the changes if you desire to do that?

If the HTPC is set to 0-255, which setting is typically used on the TV to "accept" it? My Samsung has PC mode or something like that but I always thought that was for the Legacy VGA input, not for HDMI.

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post #22 of 24 Old 05-02-2013, 02:01 AM
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Nevcairiel, you are wrong. Joe Kane knows better. But if you want to watch a non-authentic, picture, feel free.
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post #23 of 24 Old 05-02-2013, 02:35 AM
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Because throwing around some dudes name proves your facts without question, right? smile.gif
You didn't even bother to link any article where he would do these claims, or any explanation whatsoever. But feel free to believe what you want.

I actually know the math in converting a YUV video to RGB, and why there is no proper reason to stick to 16-235 on screens which can show 0-255 properly, i doubt you do as well.
I believe in the science i know and understand.

But since both will look the same, there is no harm in sticking to 16-235 if thats what you believe in.
The only harm in calibrating your HTPC to 16-235 is that anything which is not a movie will have crushed blacks and whites, so you can't use your HTPC for anything but movies.

PS:
Most of the people in the industry making such claims have no idea about HTPCs and design their systems and talks for CE devices. In this area, 16-235 is the only valid choice, clearly. But HTPCs are more, are different.

Anyway, i'm not here to convince anyone, since both ways of setting up your system are just fine.
If you can pick the 0-255 and 16-235 out of a double-blind test, you'll get a cookie. smile.gif
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post #24 of 24 Old 05-02-2013, 04:23 AM
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An argument could be made for displaying content over 235, so that you are viewing 16-255 rather than 16-235. I seem to recall someone saying that YCbCr to RGB conversion can result in values that go up to 240 with extremely saturated colors.
But I don't agree with that, and anything so saturated that it is approaching 240 is likely due to over-exposure/clipping, and will actually discolor the highlights.

If you are editing video, then yes, you need to be able to see the full range below 16 and above 235.
If you are watching video, there's no reason to show the below black and above white content.

There are different ways to approach this, but I see no difference between clipping in the renderer rather than having the display do it.
And if you clip it in the renderer, you definitely avoid seeing discoloration in the highlights, but most TVs won't actually let you clip them now, no matter what you set the contrast value to.

If you are using a renderer such as madVR I actually see some benefit to having it perform the levels expansion in addition to all the colorspace transformations it performs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post

Most of the people in the industry making such claims have no idea about HTPCs and design their systems and talks for CE devices. In this area, 16-235 is the only valid choice, clearly. But HTPCs are more, are different.
I agree wholeheartedly. Stand-alone devices are black boxes where you don't really know what is going on inside them, and at best you can measure their output and see if it is accurate or not. (a surprising number of Blu-ray players are not)

While the initial setup may be a bit more involved with an HTPC, I actually trust developers like Nevcariel and Madshi a lot more, as they actually have people looking over their work with a critical eye and if there is a problem found, they actually acknowledge it and fix the problem, rather than waiting another year and silently rolling the fix into another $500+ device. (if it gets fixed at all)

I think most of the anti-HTPC sentiment - which seems to be going away these days - is largely due to people not liking or understanding computers, and preferring the "simple" approach of buying an expensive Blu-ray player and accepting whatever they get from it.
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