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post #91 of 140 Old 02-24-2012, 08:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

Use a vpn.

IF YOU CIRCUMVENT OR ATTEMPT TO CIRCUMVENT ANY BLACKOUT RESTRICTION OR OTHER USE RESTRICTION: YOUR SUBSCRIPTION WILL BE SUBJECT TO IMMEDIATE TERMINATION AND A CHARGE OF ONE HUNDRED DOLLARS ($100.00) FOR EARLY TERMINATION WILL BE APPLIED TO YOUR CREDIT CARD; YOU MAY BE SUBJECT TO LEGAL ACTION; AND NHL ICE RESERVES THE RIGHT TO REPORT SUCH MISCONDUCT TO APPROPRIATE LAW ENFORCEMENT AUTHORITIES.

not something id want to mess with http://www.nhl.com/ice/page.htm?id=26389

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post #92 of 140 Old 02-24-2012, 08:34 AM
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No cable TV since college here (many, many years ago) and I have so much content backed up that I'll never get around to watching it all. I'm deleting stuff off my DVR as it is because I don't have time for it.

Anyway, fwiw, I don't think any of that was "rude" to the service rep. Be honest and polite to them, but be firm. And don't be afraid to call them out when they are either lying or just plain ignorant about a subject.

On a related note, I had to go round-and-round with some rather polite, but non-serving, CSRs over a faulty cable modem that would flake out after it was plugged in for 10 minutes (it would warm up and then the S-N ratio would drop to nothing.) Had to talk to two or three different people and didn't get them to replace it until I explained to them, in no uncertain terms, how S-N ratios worked. Basically, once they determined that I had a basic understanding of what was happening, that it was their product that was faulty, and that I wasn't going to just nod my head stupidly when they blamed it on the signal from my ISP, they coughed up a free replacement.

Tell them what you think, and tell them what you think about what they are telling you too, but be civil. That seems to work the best in my experience.

-Suntan
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post #93 of 140 Old 02-24-2012, 08:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pittsoccer33 View Post

IF YOU CIRCUMVENT OR ATTEMPT TO CIRCUMVENT ANY BLACKOUT RESTRICTION OR OTHER USE RESTRICTION: YOUR SUBSCRIPTION WILL BE SUBJECT TO IMMEDIATE TERMINATION AND A CHARGE OF ONE HUNDRED DOLLARS ($100.00) FOR EARLY TERMINATION WILL BE APPLIED TO YOUR CREDIT CARD; YOU MAY BE SUBJECT TO LEGAL ACTION; AND NHL ICE RESERVES THE RIGHT TO REPORT SUCH MISCONDUCT TO APPROPRIATE LAW ENFORCEMENT AUTHORITIES.

not something id want to mess with http://www.nhl.com/ice/page.htm?id=26389

Legal action? What?

I doubt it.

Edit: Against their terms and reason to be fined? Sure. Illegal? Show me. I don't think this is illegal.
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post #94 of 140 Old 02-24-2012, 08:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ProAm500 View Post

but I find that many "cord cutters" come off as having this high and mighty, "who really needs that many channels, all thats on TV is junk, I have better, more important things to with my time" attitude. Almost, as if they are looking down at us "cord connectors"...


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...find network TV, other than sports, unwatchable.

Interesting dichotomy you got going there.

-Suntan
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post #95 of 140 Old 02-24-2012, 08:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

Legal action? What?

I doubt it.

Edit: Against their terms and reason to be fined? Sure. Illegal? Show me. I don't think this is illegal.

The VPN isn't illegal but maybe using it to circumvent the black out is?

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post #96 of 140 Old 02-24-2012, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

The VPN isn't illegal but maybe using it to circumvent the black out is?

Its not illegal to use it for Hulu. Don't know why it would be illegal for NFL, NHL, etc. Again its definitely against their policy and fair game for a fine. But illegal?

C'mon man.

If so I would like to see the law. I did a google and didn't come up with anything.
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post #97 of 140 Old 02-24-2012, 08:54 AM
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PC World doesn't say anything is illegal about using VPN to watch NFL.

I think the NHL is just trying to scare you.

http://www.pcworld.com/article/24879...bowl_xlvi.html
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post #98 of 140 Old 02-24-2012, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Norsican View Post

I think you've summed up my feelings on the subject better than I did.

We'd sit and FIND something to watch as if it was something that HAD to happen. In the past few days, We've sat in the living room, TV off, Not Being bombarded with noise. The kids get out board games, read books to us, etc. It's all very Norman Rockwell now. It kind of all just happened and we realized that there was a noise in the house and it was being piped in via cable. We felt Forced to watch something since we are paying out the nose for it.

Now, We're not feeling forced, we watch less TV, and enjoy each others company. We watch what we have and waste less time on things that don't matter. We pipe Pandora in at times when the TV is off and it's all very serene.

YMMV, but the change in the home is palpable. It is kind of like getting a monkey off your back.

I know what you mean. We don't really have the TV on until the kids go to bed (ages 4 and 2.) We don't really force the issue as far as not letting the kids watch it or something but in general we just don't have it on. The 4 year old gets to watch a couple of shows via Netflix or PBS in the afternoon while the 2 year old takes a nap, but otherwise the TV is just off because they are playing or we are doing something.

However, when either set of grandparents are visiting, the grandpa always insists on having the TV on, just to have it on. This past weekend I came in from doing something in the garage to have my father-in-law sitting there watching snowboard racing on NBC. The man is in his upper 60's, has never even been on skis, and yet he just has to have *something* on the TV during the day.

It really becomes apparent how distracting and annoying it is to just have the TV on when you are used to having the TV off during the day.

-Suntan
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post #99 of 140 Old 02-24-2012, 09:03 AM
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I think they could sue for breach of contract. Would they? Probably not.

But seeing a billing address in the area of the game and an IP not in the area of the game would definitely raise some red flags.
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post #100 of 140 Old 02-24-2012, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

Its not illegal to use it for Hulu. Don't know why it would be illegal for NFL, NHL, etc. Again its definitely against their policy and fair game for a fine. But illegal?

C'mon man.

If so I would like to see the law. I did a google and didn't come up with anything.

It's only illegal in that it is a breach of contract that you had with them. I can't think anyone would even suggest it is crimially illegal.

-Suntan
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post #101 of 140 Old 02-24-2012, 09:07 AM
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Whether something is legal or not does not prevent one from being sued and incurring the expense that goes along with defending oneself.

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post #102 of 140 Old 02-24-2012, 09:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suntan View Post

It's only illegal in that it is a breach of contract that you had with them. I can't think anyone would even suggest it is crimially illegal.

-Suntan

So can I sue them if the game I am watching gets interrupted?

Absolute ridiculousness.
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post #103 of 140 Old 02-24-2012, 09:31 AM
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Legal action in this sense doesn't mean it is criminal but rather civil... Contractrual.

The $100 is their's per the contract and they can terminate the sevice too.

Getting more than that would require that they prove an actual loss and then they can collect that loss. That probably may not happen but people have been sued for downloading music too. The cost of paying a lawyer to defend you in the civil courts could be very large. Their usual retainer is maybe $5k to start.

As far as the game being interupted, the contract probably says you have to accept the possibility of that as a term of accepting the service.

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post #104 of 140 Old 02-24-2012, 09:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

sometimes having instant access to streaming trash is a nice distractor

My wife is a stay at home mom too, and I just can't get my head around this mentality...

Anyway, I'd have to agree with rocketlaw that there is *a lot* of content available for kids between Netflix and PBS alone.

http://pbskids.org/findit/index.html

Not to mention all the stuff on Netflix. Some of my kids' personal favorites like the "All About" series, "How'd They Build That" series, "Bob the Builder", "Fireman Sam" series, and of course three seasons of "Mighty Machines" just to name a few.











If you're exhausting all that is available, you're letting your kids watch too much, imo.

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post #105 of 140 Old 02-24-2012, 09:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

Legal action in this sense doesn't mean it is criminal but rather civil... Contractrual.

The $100 is their's per the contract and they can terminate the sevice too.

Getting more than that would require that they prove an actual loss and then they can collect that loss. That probably may not happen but people have been sued for downloading music too. The cost of paying a lawyer to defend you in the civil courts could be very large. Their usual retainer is maybe $5k to start.

But why would the NHL bother to persue you in civil court if you are just an individual that is not doing anything other than watching a blacked out game in your home market? Their lawyers have better things to do too.

-Suntan
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post #106 of 140 Old 02-24-2012, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Norsican View Post

In the 5 days of no cable, I've heard no outright complaints about the decision. There have been a few hiccups, but nothing that didn't happen on Cable. The house has been quieter and we've been getting more stuff done.

You're actually in the hardest period of time right now. In a couple weeks/months all the shows you used to watch regularly will start appearing in Netflix (either streamed or on disc) with episodes you have not seen.

You can elect to pick up the ones you still want to watch and they will be "new to you." Only they will often be available in better quality and with no commercials to skip over.

-Suntan
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post #107 of 140 Old 02-24-2012, 09:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suntan View Post

It's only illegal in that it is a breach of contract that you had with them. I can't think anyone would even suggest it is crimially illegal.

-Suntan

Actually there are a wide variety of laws that it might violate. It might be a copyright violation. And it might be a violation of any of a variety of federal and state laws about interception or theft of communications signals. As one example, 47 USC ยง 553 provides:

"(1)No person shall intercept or receive or assist in intercepting or receiving any communications service offered over a cable system, unless specifically authorized to do so by a cable operator or as may otherwise be specifically authorized by law."

That section provides criminal fines and up to 6 months in jail.

Plainly when one circumvents a blackout, they are receifing a communications service without authorization.

Most if not all states have other laws covering this as well. Whether any have ever been applied to circumventing blackouts I don't know, and it would surprise me if they had, but you can't say for sure that it's not illegal. It's certainly not outrageous for someone to suggest that it is.
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post #108 of 140 Old 02-24-2012, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suntan View Post

But why would the NHL bother to persue you in civil court if you are just an individual that is not doing anything other than watching a blacked out game in your home market? Their lawyers have better things to do too.

-Suntan

I suppose, but that's what napster users thought too. If using a VPN to watch blacked out games were to become a wide-spread practice, I'd expect the lawsuits but right now I presume it isn't very wide-spread.

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post #109 of 140 Old 02-24-2012, 09:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

Legal action in this sense doesn't mean it is criminal but rather civil... Contractrual.

The $100 is their's per the contract and they can terminate the sevice too.

Getting more than that would require that they prove an actual loss and then they can collect that loss. That probably may not happen but people have been sued for downloading music too. The cost of paying a lawyer to defend you in the civil courts could be very large. Their usual retainer is maybe $5k to start.

As far as the game being interupted, the contract probably says you have to accept the possibility of that as a term of accepting the service.

Maybe, maybe not. As in the music cases, applicable laws might provide for a statutory penalty for each violation even in the absence of any proof of damages. That's how the numbers got so huge in the music downloading cases. The industry never had to prove damages, they just had to show the number of songs.
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post #110 of 140 Old 02-24-2012, 09:50 AM
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Okay, that was copywright violation. This is a violation of another law altogether but right now anyway I think the numbers are pretty low, as are the losses. I don't expect it to stay that way.

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post #111 of 140 Old 02-24-2012, 09:52 AM
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If anyone's actually interested in the sports blackout rules, you might be interested to know that the FCC has a administrative process ongoing right now to review the rules for sports blackouts. I think the period for public comments closed sometime in the past month. The rule actually goes back to a 1973 federal law that was passed to prohibit blackouts when games are sold out. Some good background is provided in this letter from several Senators to the FCC:

http://apps.fcc.gov/ecfs/document/view?id=7021860015
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post #112 of 140 Old 02-24-2012, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Zon2020 View Post

If anyone's actually interested in the sports blackout rules, you might be interested to know that the FCC has a administrative process ongoing right now to review the rules for sports blackouts. I think the period for public comments closed sometime in the past month. The rule actually goes back to a 1973 federal law that was passed to prohibit blackouts when games are sold out. Some good background is provided in this letter from several Senators to the FCC:

http://apps.fcc.gov/ecfs/document/view?id=7021860015

I just find the whole thing incredibly annoying from both sides.
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post #113 of 140 Old 02-24-2012, 10:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Suntan View Post

You're actually in the hardest period of time right now. In a couple weeks/months all the shows you used to watch regularly will start appearing in Netflix (either streamed or on disc) with episodes you have not seen.

You can elect to pick up the ones you still want to watch and they will be "new to you." Only they will often be available in better quality and with no commercials to skip over.

-Suntan

Yeah, I quit smoking a number of years ago. I remember all to well what I went though there. This is much easier by comparison.

THERE IS NO NORSICAN, THERE IS ONLY ZUUL
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post #114 of 140 Old 02-24-2012, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

So can I sue them if the game I am watching gets interrupted?

No. But their terms don't say they will. They say:
YOU MAY BE SUBJECT TO LEGAL ACTION; AND NHL ICE RESERVES THE RIGHT TO REPORT SUCH MISCONDUCT TO APPROPRIATE LAW ENFORCEMENT AUTHORITIES.

Emphasis added. "May" is a weasel word. It can be added to anything to make the sentence possible. By posting in this form, you may be subject to having to pay me $100 billion trillion dollars. There's no chance of that ever happening, but you MAY be subject to it. Reserves the right is along the same lines.

Also, they can report the conduct all that they want to the appropriate authorities. They aren't going to give two chits about it. They have more important things to do then hear a complaint about a law that doesn't exist. You're paying for service, they are sending the service. Any breaking of those terms are a private contractual matter and not subject to criminal law.

The other thing is that my guess NHL wouldn't care in the long run. If you're paying for the subscription, the only people that would be upset is the local broadcaster that isn't getting the local eyes watching THEIR feed. NHL may be contractually obligated to say something like that and have the effect that they care, but the legal cost to pursue the matter legally outweighs anything that they might get from any single instance. Now if it was a free streaming feed a la justin.tv, then that's different.
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post #115 of 140 Old 02-24-2012, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Norsican View Post

Yeah, I quit smoking a number of years ago. I remember all to well what I went though there. This is much easier by comparison.

Not just the fact that you are in the middle of the transition right now, but after a period of time, you will be able to watch all the same shows you used to watch. You can just get them for pennies on the dollar because the vast majority of video content has an extremely short shelf life.

-Suntan
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post #116 of 140 Old 02-24-2012, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdru View Post

No. But their terms don't say they will. They say:
YOU MAY BE SUBJECT TO LEGAL ACTION; AND NHL ICE RESERVES THE RIGHT TO REPORT SUCH MISCONDUCT TO APPROPRIATE LAW ENFORCEMENT AUTHORITIES.

Emphasis added. "May" is a weasel word. It can be added to anything to make the sentence possible. By posting in this form, you may be subject to having to pay me $100 billion trillion dollars. There's no chance of that ever happening, but you MAY be subject to it. Reserves the right is along the same lines.

Also, they can report the conduct all that they want to the appropriate authorities. They aren't going to give two chits about it. They have more important things to do then hear a complaint about a law that doesn't exist. You're paying for service, they are sending the service. Any breaking of those terms are a private contractual matter and not subject to criminal law.

The other thing is that my guess NHL wouldn't care in the long run. If you're paying for the subscription, the only people that would be upset is the local broadcaster that isn't getting the local eyes watching THEIR feed. NHL may be contractually obligated to say something like that and have the effect that they care, but the legal cost to pursue the matter legally outweighs anything that they might get from any single instance. Now if it was a free streaming feed a la justin.tv, then that's different.

Good post. pretty much along the lines of what I was thinking. Typical scare tactics even though I would be paying for their season pass.
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post #117 of 140 Old 02-24-2012, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdru View Post

Also, they can report the conduct all that they want to the appropriate authorities. They aren't going to give two chits about it. They have more important things to do then hear a complaint about a law that doesn't exist. You're paying for service, they are sending the service. Any breaking of those terms are a private contractual matter and not subject to criminal law.

That's simply not true. There are hundreds of pages of federal and state laws governing communications, TV, cable, satellite, and misappropriation of those things.

Now, do I think someone's going to get criminally prosecuted for using a VPN to circumvent blackout restrictions? I seriously doubt it. But don't claim there aren't many laws that cover these things. This is one of the most highly regulated industries in the country.
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post #118 of 140 Old 02-24-2012, 12:37 PM
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Highly regulated and still out of control on pricing.

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post #119 of 140 Old 02-24-2012, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

Highly regulated and still out of control on pricing.

High prices and bad service. That's what comes from a lack of competition.
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post #120 of 140 Old 02-24-2012, 12:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Zon2020 View Post

High prices and bad service. That's what comes from a lack of competition.


Which drive me to a position noted at the beginning of this thread.

See what I did there?

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