Adjusting for "overscan" on DLP while maintaining 1:1 pixel mapping? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 52 Old 02-25-2012, 12:13 PM - Thread Starter
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I could swear I had this working properly before. I don't know if a driver update broke it, or what has happened. I have an HTPC with a GTX460 connected to a Mits WD-73736 through a Denon 4311. I need to use the desktop resize to prevent the edges from being lost out in the overscan area. I could swear that doing this before only affected desktop programs, and that video still worked at the full 1080x1920 resolution. But now both TMT and PDVD are using the desktop resolution, so I'm not getting 1:1 pixel mapping.

Is there a trick here that I've forgotten or am overlooking?

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post #2 of 52 Old 02-25-2012, 01:03 PM
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In your CCC catalyst control center is the overscan compensation set to 0% instead of to it's default value 0f 15%?
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post #3 of 52 Old 02-25-2012, 01:32 PM - Thread Starter
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I have a GTX460, I don't think the ATI drivers will work very well on it. But yes, in the nvidia control panel, if I set the resolution to 1920x1080 instead of the 1842x1036 resolution that it created when I did the desktop resize, I get proper 1:1 pixel mapping in TMT. But then I lose the edges of my desktop. I THOUGHT that previously with video I had proper 1:1 while in video mode and reduced resolution in the desktop. But now I can't seem to get both working properly without constantly changing the resolution.

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post #4 of 52 Old 02-25-2012, 01:41 PM
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From the help:

Resizing your desktop to fit the screen
Many TV and HDTV displays overscan (enlarge) the video image in order to hide possible artifacts that might appear on the edges of the picture, such as text and station logos on TV programming.

When viewing other content that does not need overscan, such as games or the Windows desktop, some of the image might be cut off. For example, the Windows taskbar may appear off-screen and not be completely visible.


Oversize a res and that's the "new res" for that res. So, try creating a new custom res and use that in TMT and PDVD.
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post #5 of 52 Old 02-25-2012, 01:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Gilhooley View Post

try creating a new custom res and use that in TMT and PDVD.

But that's the catch... how do I get them to automatically use a different resolution than the desktop? I don't remember having to manually switch the resolution before. I don't need a custom resolution... selecting the standard 1920x1080 resolution produces the correct results for video.

My understanding has always been that these overscan adjustments don't change the actual output to the display... 1842x1036 isn't a valid resolution. They simply cause windows to operate at that desktop size, centered within the real 1920x1080 output. And I thought that previously on my system, video output automatically used the full 1920x1080 dimensions, but now it's using the "fake" 1842x1036 resolution, and scaling the image to fit that.

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post #6 of 52 Old 02-25-2012, 07:08 PM
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The overscan adjustments on the source change the actual resoloution that is being sent to the display. So if you shrink the desktop and what is sent you are underscaning the output and then you are relying on the display to overscan it so that you have the appearance of 1:1 pixel resolution, however, the display had to invent the contetent of the underscanned image it received in order to fill it's 1920x1080 screen therefore you do not have true 1:1 pixel mapping. You need to disable overescan on the display and leave the desktop at 1920x1080 for true 1:1 pixel mapping of both video and PC applications.
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post #7 of 52 Old 02-25-2012, 09:17 PM
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Exactly - 1:1 pixel mapping is a function of BOTH the display and video card. Very (very) few RPTV DLP sets will allow for it - Highly unlikely that you ever had (true) 1:1 mapping in the past.
Once you set the video card to 1920x1080 and the overscan to 0, nothing else you can do with it - the rest is up to your display...
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post #8 of 52 Old 02-25-2012, 11:33 PM
 
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I've walked into many a home theater with dudes smart enough to even build/design their own loudspeakers. As well as all the BS it takes to get a HTPC running properly in Windows.

BUT

I'd say perhaps as high as 40% of said users and a good 80% of laypeople do exactly what this guy was doing and have NEVER had TRUE 1:1 mapping!

For me doing aftermarket support in my experience the VAST MAJORITY even though they THINK they understand... they DON'T and then they have the WRONG SETTINGS...

LOL

Darin... seriously 5k worth of posts dude!?!

Giggle...

The setting is in your display device NOT the video adapter settings! Make sure it's set to 1920 x 1080 progressive 32bpp with 0% overscan in the driver. Also disable video adapter scaling.

PS some of these people are even developers that I've corrected their systems!
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post #9 of 52 Old 02-26-2012, 02:24 AM
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I know i've done something similar on my setup. I have a sony rpd and I changed the resolution so the entire desktop fits the screen. When set to 1920x1080 with 0% overscan the entire desktop appears bigger than the screen. Don't know why rpd tv's don't allow for 1:1 mapping like you get on LCDs but oh well.

So from my understanding I can leave the resolution as 1920x1080 and when watching something (livetv, movie rips, etc) the content being shown on the screen will appear fine? Just want to make sure the video won't be cut off or cropped.
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post #10 of 52 Old 02-26-2012, 04:08 AM
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Originally Posted by utee05 View Post

Don't know why rpd tv's don't allow for 1:1 mapping like you get on LCDs but oh well.

RPDs are by nature an optical device, and the optics can't be perfect, so even though you can get 1:1 pixel mapping on the DLP chip itself, the projection will never match up perfectly with the edges of the screen, so they make the projection a little bigger than the screen. Since you can only adjust the DLP chip "output" and not the optics, there is nothing you can do.
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post #11 of 52 Old 02-26-2012, 05:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by walford View Post

The overscan adjustments on the source change the actual resoloution that is being sent to the display.

I really don't think that's true. You think my display supports a 1842x1036 input? Or 1840x1036? Or 1840x1034? Using the desktop resize controls in the video drivers, I can come up with any number of odd resolutions. The TV can only accept a handful of standard resolutions. All you're doing when you adjust this setting is changing the resolution Windows uses internally for the desktop, while the output remains at a standard resolution. Similar to the way some drivers will allow you to set a desktop size larger than the resolution being sent to the display, and panning as the mouse gets to the edge. But in reverse.

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Originally Posted by rockytt View Post

Exactly - 1:1 pixel mapping is a function of BOTH the display and video card. Very (very) few RPTV DLP sets will allow for it

Most of the ones I'm aware of do. I don't have a Samsung DLP, bit IIRC, it's a function of some user settings (I think they call it "just scan", or something like that - like I said, I don't have one). With Mitsubishi, you have to go into the service menu and disable geometry correction. Of course, in either case, 1:1 pixel mapping is automatic in 3D mode, as it's necessary in the checkerboard format (and another reason why you want to make sure you aren't messing it up in the PC).
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Highly unlikely that you ever had (true) 1:1 mapping in the past.

I have it now as long as I leave my desktop resolution at standard 1920x1080. I'm simply trying to see if there's a way to get video output to use the full 1920x1080 when the desktop is set to something smaller. I can do it in Media Center (tell it to use 1920x1080 despite the desktop being set at something smaller), but TMT reverts back to the deskop settings.

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Originally Posted by Solid-State View Post

I'd say perhaps as high as 40% of said users and a good 80% of laypeople do exactly what this guy was doing and have NEVER had TRUE 1:1 mapping!

Like I said, getting true 1:1 pixel mapping is not an issue. It's easily comfirmable with test video. The issue is simply getting TMT or PDVD to use a resolution other than what Windows reports as the desktop resolution. That is simple with games, as many of them have their own independent resolution settings when not in windowed mode. I just can't find a comparable setting for TMT, unless there's a registry setting for it.
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Darin... seriously 5k worth of posts dude!?!

Plenty of people have a lot more. I'm not sure what you're getting at.
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The setting is in your display device NOT the video adapter settings!

I don't follow... my question has nothing to do with my display device, and I'm not talking about any settings in the display. I'm simply trying to see if there's a way to get video output from TMT or PDVD to use full 1920x1080 when in fullscreen mode even if the desktop is set to something less.

I don't see why everyone is trying to make this out as something more complicated than it is.

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post #12 of 52 Old 02-26-2012, 07:35 AM
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I never said your display supports a 1842x1036 input. It does support a 1920x1080 input where the actual mage has been shrunk to 1842x1036 with the rest of the 1920x1080 buffer is just black( a black border around the 1842x1036mage). There is absolutly no reason to set your desktop resolution to less then 1920x1080 or to set your TV to not overscan using "Just Scan" if that is the name of the no overscan option.
You do not get 1:1 Pixel mapping using with a RP DLP 3D TV since the since you can not send it 1920x1080 for each eye. You can send a 1080p buffer containg the left and right eye images as 960x1080 as down sampled images in Checkerboard format. The display will then recreate the missing pixels prior to display of each eyes content. The actual DLP RP chip is a 960x1080 chip and uses wobulation to display the content for each eye.
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post #13 of 52 Old 02-26-2012, 07:55 AM
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it just sounds like nvidia broke the new drivers to me. i had this same problem before. set desktop size using adjust desktop and that screwed up everything else. so then i was playing with a custom res, but that didn't work very well as it limited my resolution choices so i lived with the desktop being off the screen. then i put in an updated driver and the adjust desktop worked the way it should without jacking up everything else.

i'm using this version 8.17.12.9053
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post #14 of 52 Old 02-26-2012, 08:00 AM
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I think the OP is confusing the ability to see 100% of screen content (via custom scaling settings from the HTPC) with 1:1 pixel mapping; I believe everyone else that has chimed in so far in this thread are correct.

Edit: easiest way to test this - connect a BD player directly to the display, and output an overscan test image from a calibration disc (such as Disney WOW).
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post #15 of 52 Old 02-26-2012, 08:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tezster View Post

I think the OP is confusing the ability to see 100% of screen content (via custom scaling settings from the HTPC) with 1:1 pixel mapping; I believe everyone else that has chimed in so far in this thread are correct.

Edit: easiest way to test this - connect a BD player directly to the display, and output an overscan test image from a calibration disc (such as Disney WOW).

if i'm correct, what he is saying is that if he adjusts the desktop size, its adjusting the resolution setting, something it shouldn't do. if its doing that, nvidia broke the drivers again.
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post #16 of 52 Old 02-26-2012, 08:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walford View Post

I never said your display supports a 1842x1036 input. It does support a 1920x1080 input where the actual mage has been shrunk to 1842x1036 with the rest of the 1920x1080 buffer is just black( a black border around the 1842x1036mage).

Then we're on the same page. When you said "The overscan adjustments on the source change the actual resoloution that is being sent to the display" I took that literally. I guess you meant something different than how it sounds.

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There is absolutly no reason to set your desktop resolution to less then 1920x1080

Sure there is. Without using the resize adjustments in the video drivers (which create these fake resolutions that are less than 1920x1080), things like the task bar, shortcuts to the far left of the screen, the close/minimize controls on maximized apps, etc., are partially or fully off-screen, stuck in the "overscan" area, making them hard to access. You have to try to guess where they are if you want to access them. It's not the end of the world, but it's certainly not ideal. Though I'll take it over compromised video quality.

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You do not get 1:1 Pixel mapping using with a RP DLP 3D TV since the since you can not send it 1920x1080 for each eye.

You HAVE to get 1:1 pixel mapping, or 3D wont't work properly. In the checkerboard format, every other pixel is intended for the "other" eye. If the PC interpolates the 1920x1080 image down to 1842x1036 (or whatever) you lose 1:1 pixel mapping, and the individual pixels might not end up mapped to the correct eye.

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You can send a 1080p buffer containg the left and right eye images as 960x1080 as down sampled images in Checkerboard format. The display will then recreate the missing pixels prior to display of each eyes content. The actual DLP RP chip is a 960x1080 chip and uses wobulation to display the content for each eye.

But the input signal is still a a standard 1080p signal with 1920x1080 dimensions. The left/right images are separated in the TV, based on a checkerboard pattern. To use a checkerboard analogy, if you take a checkerboard of 8x8 squares, the source sends the entire 8x8 grid as one frame, and the TV breaks out the red squares and black squares, and shows the red squares to the right eye, then shows the black squares to the left eye during the next sub-frame. If I were to resize the desktop to account for the overscan, it would try to scale the 8x8 squares down into something smaller (say 6x6), with a boarder around it that is out of the visible area (in this case, the boarder is 1 square wide). When you scale that 8x8 grid down to 6x6, each individual pixel is no longer where it should be. Some red squares may end up where the TV is expecting a black square, and therefore shown to the left eye instead of the right.

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post #17 of 52 Old 02-26-2012, 08:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robl45 View Post

if i'm correct, what he is saying is that if he adjusts the desktop size, its adjusting the resolution setting, something it shouldn't do. if its doing that, nvidia broke the drivers again.

I think we're talking about two separate elements of the problem described To be sure, there could very well be an issue with the display drivers preventing the OP from configuring the display the same way it was before.
But the TV itself could still be applying overscan to the input signal, as has been discussed in this thread.
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post #18 of 52 Old 02-26-2012, 08:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by tezster View Post

I think the OP is confusing the ability to see 100% of screen content (via custom scaling settings from the HTPC) with 1:1 pixel mapping

Apparently I'm not communicating this very well. I'll try again: When I use what nvidia calls desktop resize to "fit" the desktop into the visible area of the TV, it creates a new bogus resolution (in my case 1842x1036). When I use TMT or PDVD, they are using this resolution instead of 1920x1080. This is preventing 1:1 pixel mapping, because 1920x1080 is being scaled down to 1842x1036.

Quote:


easiest way to test this - connect a BD player directly to the display, and output an overscan test image from a calibration disc (such as Disney WOW).

I'm not sure what this will tell us that we don't already know: my display has overscan. For the reasons that DanPackMan has already stated. That is something I can't change. Ideally, you deal with it by using the resize functions in the video drivers, but you DON'T want them to come into play during video.

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post #19 of 52 Old 02-26-2012, 08:32 AM
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then change the damn drivers i had this exact same problem. my desktop fits on my screen just fine and my SBS 3d plays just fine, everything is using 1980x1080p going through my optoma gt750 DLP projector.

as I said before, if its changing the resolution, they broke the drivers again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darin View Post

Apparently I'm not communicating this very well. I'll try again: When I use what nvidia calls desktop resize to "fit" the desktop into the visible area of the TV, it creates a new bogus resolution (in my case 1842x1036). When I use TMT or PDVD, they are using this resolution instead of 1920x1080. This is preventing 1:1 pixel mapping, because 1920x1080 is being scaled down to 1842x1036.


I'm not sure what this will tell us that we don't already know: my display has overscan. For the reasons that DanPackMan has already stated. That is something I can't change. Ideally, you deal with it by using the resize functions in the video drivers, but you DON'T want them to come into play during video.

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post #20 of 52 Old 02-26-2012, 08:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robl45 View Post

it just sounds like nvidia broke the new drivers to me. i had this same problem before. set desktop size using adjust desktop and that screwed up everything else. so then i was playing with a custom res, but that didn't work very well as it limited my resolution choices so i lived with the desktop being off the screen. then i put in an updated driver and the adjust desktop worked the way it should without jacking up everything else.

i'm using this version 8.17.12.9053

Finally someone who understands. I'm currently using 290.53 (so I guess the same as yours under a different naming convention). This is what I'm not clear of: if this is a driver issue, or a TMT/PDVD issue. Regular desktop software should use the fake resolutions, as that's what keeps it within the visible area. "video" software should be using 1920x1080. I don't know if it's up to TMT to override the desktop resolution and use 1920x1080, or if it's up to the video drivers to recognize that it's a video application, and switch to 1920x1080.

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post #21 of 52 Old 02-26-2012, 08:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by robl45 View Post

my desktop fits on my screen just fine and my SBS 3d plays just fine, everything is using 1980x1080p going through my optoma gt750 DLP projector.

Hmmm, but it looks like you're on the same drivers I am. Do you know you're getting 1:1? If the image is scaled, it won't mess up SBS 3D, only checkerboard (SBS can be scaled and still be SBS). Have you checked with the AVS test video? Though if you're using a projector, I expect you don't have anywhere near as much overscan as I do on my RPTV.

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post #22 of 52 Old 02-26-2012, 10:41 AM
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I dont know if someone already mentioned this and I just missed it, but....


On a DLP (or any other rear projection set), I dont think you can easily achieve 1:1 pixel mapping AND no cropping or black border both, simply due to the nature of rear projection. Think about it...for this to work, the geometry and alignment of the set would have to be physically perfect since you are in fact projecting the image from one part of the tv, to a screen at the other end of the tv. You may be able to tweak the set both physicly and via service menu to get there, but from the factory I'm sure there is significant overscan just for the variance of projection alignment from set to set (and being moved around) nevermind to hide any unwanted picture data like CC....thus your cropped picture when 1:1.

Without going to extreme, pretty much the only way your gunna get edge to edge with no borders or cropping on projection is set the tv at it's 1:1 mode, then adjust the over/under scan driver level controls to bring the overall picture in or out to where it fits the screen. You will no longer be propper 1:1 image anymore, but you will propperly fill your screen. Basicly cant do both on rear projection without absolutely perfect alignment between the projection unit and screen, which you arent going to get out of the box.
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post #23 of 52 Old 02-26-2012, 11:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by C17chief View Post

On a DLP (or any other rear projection set), I dont think you can easily achieve 1:1 pixel mapping AND no cropping or black border both, simply due to the nature of rear projection.

Right, on RP DLP, a significant number of pixels are physically outside of the screen area (in my case, about 78 horizontally, and 44 vertically). I certainly don't expect to get 1920x1080 pixels to fit in the viewable screen area, as that is impossible without being able to make physical changes to the set (which I've actually considered trying, as per here). Even if that is possible, you can't completely eliminate overscan, as a RP set doesn't produce a geometrically perfect picture. Though one day I may try to reduce it.

But that's not what I'm referring to here. What you want is to be able to reduce the size of the desktop (in my case, to 1842x1036) so that Windows elements are not lost to the overscan area. This is done with the resize option in the video drivers, which causes Windows to use a reduced resolution desktop framed within the 1920x1080 output, so that the only thing lost to the overscan area is black border. Obviously a standard 1920x1080 video won't fit into that 1842x1036 space without scaling, so what you want is to revert to normal (unframed) output during video mode. This can be accomplished by manually switching the resolution to 1920x1080 when playing video, and back to the fake 1842x1036 when using the desktop.

I'm trying to figure out how to make this happen automatically. I thought I had it working at one time... perhaps a driver update broke it, perhaps a software update broke it, or perhaps my memory is just bad.

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post #24 of 52 Old 02-26-2012, 11:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darin View Post

Hmmm, but it looks like you're on the same drivers I am. Do you know you're getting 1:1? If the image is scaled, it won't mess up SBS 3D, only checkerboard (SBS can be scaled and still be SBS). Have you checked with the AVS test video? Though if you're using a projector, I expect you don't have anywhere near as much overscan as I do on my RPTV.

i only use hsbs and top and bottom, both work fine. i have also used them with total media theatre, but since my audio doesn't work with powerdvd or TMT because i have a very old amp, i just stick with mpc-hc.

but the bottom line at least for me was that when i had other drivers, if I resized the desktop, then I would see that it would set my resolution to a custom resolution. On the drivers i'm on now, if I set a custom desktop size, it still keeps me on the same resolution with all frequencies such as 60-50-24-23 still available to me.

the flipside is you could just live with the desktop being off the screen.
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post #25 of 52 Old 02-26-2012, 11:30 AM
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my desktop fits on my screen just fine and my SBS 3d plays just fine, everything is using 1980x1080p going through my optoma gt750 DLP projector.

Front projection and rear projection are two completely different animals when it comes to 1:1 pixel mapping and overscan. Front projectors behave more like plasma/lcd screens (digital devices) and darn near every single one can achieve 1:1 w/o any issues whatsoever
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post #26 of 52 Old 02-26-2012, 11:38 AM
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Look there is a very easy way to settle this. Does it work correctly when you don't resize the desktop? If so, it's the drivers plain and simple and you need to uninstall and try some other drivers till you can resize the desktop and not have it mess with the resolution numbers. If it still doesn't work without resizing the desktop, then I'm wrong on the cause, accept my apologies and continue on with the discussion.
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post #27 of 52 Old 02-26-2012, 11:49 AM - Thread Starter
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but the bottom line at least for me was that when i had other drivers, if I resized the desktop, then I would see that it would set my resolution to a custom resolution. ...

Does it work correctly when you don't resize the desktop?

I think the issue you experienced previously was different... To the best of my knowledge, when I switch to the "resized" 1842x1036 resolution, it's not changing the output. I don't have a way to confirm exactly what's being output, but when I switch between 1920x1080 and 1842x1036, there's no new handshake. It seems fairly clear that it is simply changing the size of the desktop within the 1920x1080 output (as it should). It sounds like what you experienced before is your output resolution actually changing. My problem is simply getting TMT to use the full 1920x1080 without having to manually switch it.

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So sorry Darin I didn't realize it's a RPTV! If you get into the service menus you can all but eliminate the overscan! BTW you haven't even told us what interface your using. DVI, HDMI or component !?! The TV should have aspect ratio control that adds overscan. Set it to do least amount of overscan then findout how to get into the service menus to eliminate the overscan. I have personally managed to get an RPTV in the past to has practically zero overscan doing that...

menu 2-4-5-7 geometry and pincushion.

In the factory in Mexico they do a really ****** job of the geometry. In the past I've removed the screen and made fine adjustments to the projector assemblies alignment. Same goes for the screen as it's clamped around the chassis frame. It takes a lot of time and farting around and is why in the factory they don't do a good job of it. When I'm doing that I also blacken a lot of the light path that's at times, back in the day, exposed particle board. I use a black flat paint for that purpose...

IMHO there isn't better picture in the industry less a 16:9 glass tube...

Here is an interesting solution if you have the money and are into DLP projectors but love the RPs extra brightness etc.

Checkout 3M's Vikuiti. I was going to use it with a LED DLP for a pub job. It was to expensive though to implement as a 60" screen was to expensive for the customer.

I did testing with the product though and the results are absolutely STUNNING with an LG LED DLP projector!

If anyone is interested in seeing it in action, and live in St. Paul MN, checkout Axel's Bonfire restaurant. Corner of Grand and Victoria streets...

PS it doesn't work with short throw
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post #29 of 52 Old 02-26-2012, 12:40 PM - Thread Starter
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If you get into the service menus you can all but eliminate the overscan!

True, but if you do that, then it's impossible to get 1:1 pixel mapping. I have specifically disabled geometry correction so I could get 1:1 pixel mapping. So at least I can get it without desktop resizing. I wouldn't even be able to get then if I tried to adjust it out with the TV.

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True, but if you do that, then it's impossible to get 1:1 pixel mapping. I have specifically disabled geometry correction so I could get 1:1 pixel mapping. So at least I can get it without desktop resizing. I wouldn't even be able to get then if I tried to adjust it out with the TV.


Interesting stuff Darin. Sorry I've been assumptive regarding your issues. Honestly I don't know what to say... You're done the right thing to get 1:1 so at this point I'm stumped...

BTW what are Brian's subs like in your DIY BOM ? I bet they are absolutely INSANE eh! LOL
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