How to detect framerate of inserted BD? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 17 Old 03-08-2012, 01:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi,

I'm still in-process of getting over all the hurdles of a setting up a new HTPC. Now I've come to a problem (again) that I can't really Google. I have a few Blu-Ray's that are not 24Hz. For example I just ripped my "Dire Straits Alchemy Live" (yes it is a Blu-Ray). And it stutters and jerks running at 24Hz.

How to solve this? I have AnyDVD HD that detects a Blu-Ray but thats it. How can I detect the framerate of the BD inserted? What tools can I use for this? Surely it must be possible - my PS3 does not try to play my Dire Straits @ 24Hz

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post #2 of 17 Old 03-08-2012, 01:56 AM
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Use http://www.cinemasquid.com/blu-ray/tools/bdinfo. I guess that music BD is 1080i29 as usual.

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post #3 of 17 Old 03-08-2012, 05:31 AM
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Reclock lets you see the framerate of the video being played. Though many bds are 23.976, there are some that are 29.97 or 59.94i. Always switching to 24 for bds works most of the time but not all the time.

Bazinga!

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post #4 of 17 Old 03-08-2012, 11:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks both. Thing is, I need this automated. I can probably use the BDInfo if I write my own "Launcher/Player" that MCE can start. I think that would be possible...

Thanks.

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post #5 of 17 Old 03-09-2012, 01:45 AM
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Welcome to the quest for the holy grail of BD playback. You have not mentioned what software you are using or hardware. TMT5? nVidia?

I use TMT5 and can't believe that the developers can create a piece of software which does all this de-interlacing, SimHD, media server and all these extra features which we may not need. But when it comes to outputting a BD in the correct frame rate to our displays, it seems nigh on impossible. All I want is a program which handles my BDs exactly like my BD-Player.

There are a few things you could try. JRiver Media Center (don't know if it handles menus); AutoFrequency (it's been a bit buggy on my system); ReClock (haven't tried yet); or disable frame rate switching and just leave it on 60Hz.

I have a few concert BDs and have just resorted to MPC-HC. I play the file from the stream folder and set the correct parameters in the refresh rate switching options. Not an elegant solution, not quite plug 'n' play but at least the playback is flawless.
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post #6 of 17 Old 03-09-2012, 07:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi,

Well, I have my new HTPC which is a i3 with Intel HD gfx (HD 2000). It has the advantage that it supports 23.976, 29,97 and 59.94 Hz. And actually I'm happy with my new setup right now. My Dire Straits BD (which is in fact 1080i/29 as "Qaq" suggested) is sent as 1080p/60 from my PS3. But looking at that disc from my HTPC i 1080i/29,97 is quite a lot better! So for the first time my HTPC is better than my PS3!!

Of course, it still seems ridiculous that we have to make all these crazy things just to match a much cheaper dedicated player. I want to see progress from now on - or the HTPC is replaced by a PCH or Dune HD .

Also, don't know what to do when "The Hobbit" is in the stores. According to Wiki, that movie is not 24 but 48

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post #7 of 17 Old 03-09-2012, 07:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ITemplate View Post

Hi,

Well, I have my new HTPC which is a i3 with Intel HD gfx (HD 2000). It has the advantage that it supports 23.976, 29,97 and 59.94 Hz. And actually I'm happy with my new setup right now. My Dire Straits BD (which is in fact 1080i/29 as "Qaq" suggested) is sent as 1080p/60 from my PS3. But looking at that disc from my HTPC i 1080i/29,97 is quite a lot better! So for the first time my HTPC is better than my PS3!!

Of course, it still seems ridiculous that we have to make all these crazy things just to match a much cheaper dedicated player. I want to see progress from now on - or the HTPC is replaced by a PCH or Dune HD .

Also, don't know what to do when "The Hobbit" is in the stores. According to Wiki, that movie is not 24 but 48

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Apparently Blu-ray doesn't support 48 fps at all, so I'm guessing that it will be released in the traditional 24fps format.
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post #8 of 17 Old 03-09-2012, 08:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ITemplate View Post

My Dire Straits BD (which is in fact 1080i/29 as "Qaq" suggested) is sent as 1080p/60 from my PS3. But looking at that disc from my HTPC i 1080i/29,97 is quite a lot better! So for the first time my HTPC is better than my PS3!!

Of course, it still seems ridiculous that we have to make all these crazy things just to match a much cheaper dedicated player. I want to see progress from now on - or the HTPC is replaced by a PCH or Dune HD .

Also, don't know what to do when "The Hobbit" is in the stores. According to Wiki, that movie is not 24 but 48

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There is no 1080i/29.97 BD. Either 1080i50 or 1080i59.94 (usually referred to as 1080i60), perhaps the latter. The video stored in the BD is a sequence of fields (half of a frame) with interval (1/60)s = 16.68ms, in other words, 60 fields per second. The graphics card *creates* a complete frame from adjacent fields by a guess work, called "deinterlacing". So the final video stream sent to the display is a sequence of frames with interval 16.68ms, i.e., 60 frames per second. The correct desktop refresh rate is therefore "60Hz" (precisely 59.94Hz). If you set your refresh rate to 30Hz, you will lose (a kind of) half of the information.

BD movie is always either 23.976 frames/sec or 24 frames/sec (statistics).

Automatic refresh rate change is relatively easy with MKV + madVR (you can use a *token*). Reclock (being able to detect the correct frame rate of the final video stream) with VBScript is a universal method.
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post #9 of 17 Old 03-09-2012, 09:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

There is no 1080i/29.97 BD. Either 1080i50 or 1080i59.94 (usually referred to as 1080i60), perhaps the latter. The video stored in the BD is a sequence of fields (half of a frame) with interval (1/60)s = 16.68ms, in other words, 60 fields per second. The graphics card *creates* a complete frame from adjacent fields by a guess work, called "deinterlacing". So the final video stream sent to the display is a sequence of frames with interval 16.68ms, i.e., 60 frames per second. The correct desktop refresh rate is therefore "60Hz" (precisely 59.94Hz). If you set your refresh rate to 30Hz, you will lose (a kind of) half of the information.

BD movie is always either 23.976 frames/sec or 24 frames/sec (statistics).

Automatic refresh rate change is relatively easy with MKV + madVR (you can use a *token*). Reclock (being able to detect the correct frame rate of the final video stream) with VBScript is a universal method.

Well I'm using Bluray ISO's not MKV so that might change how easy it is?

Second - I'm not an expert at all, and I can't say I understand quite what you are saying. But I can see Wiki that has a nice table that shows what Blu-Ray supports.

Indeed, 1080i@29.97 is listed. Also, I have downloaded BDInfo which says that my BD is "1080i / 29,970 fps / 16:9". This information is extracted from the Blu-Ray disc using the "CLIPINF" files - without the gfx card being involved at all.

So...either you are wrong or they are. Or have I got it all mixed up so that you are both right?

EDIT: Just read your post again. Trying to understand. You say "So the final video stream sent to the display is a sequence of frames with interval 16.68ms, i.e., 60 frames per second". But you also say "BD movie is always either 23.976 frames/sec or 24 frames/sec". How can those two sentences be equal?

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post #10 of 17 Old 03-09-2012, 10:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

There is no 1080i/29.97 BD. Either 1080i50 or 1080i59.94 (usually referred to as 1080i60), perhaps the latter. The video stored in the BD is a sequence of fields (half of a frame) with interval (1/60)s = 16.68ms, in other words, 60 fields per second. The graphics card *creates* a complete frame from adjacent fields by a guess work, called "deinterlacing". So the final video stream sent to the display is a sequence of frames with interval 16.68ms, i.e., 60 frames per second. The correct desktop refresh rate is therefore "60Hz" (precisely 59.94Hz). If you set your refresh rate to 30Hz, you will lose (a kind of) half of the information.

BD movie is always either 23.976 frames/sec or 24 frames/sec (statistics).

Automatic refresh rate change is relatively easy with MKV + madVR (you can use a *token*). Reclock (being able to detect the correct frame rate of the final video stream) with VBScript is a universal method.

I'm wondering, if you have a video that is 50fps or 60fps and you play it back with the on-board graphics of an intel i3-540 at 24fps will it effect the audio where it gets out of sync... more and more so as the video goes along to the point where it is 8 seconds out of sync after 120minutes or so of playback?

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post #11 of 17 Old 03-09-2012, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ITemplate View Post

Well I'm using Bluray ISO's not MKV so that might change how easy it is?

Second - I'm not an expert at all, and I can't say I understand quite what you are saying. But I can see Wiki that has a nice table that shows what Blu-Ray supports.

Indeed, 1080i@29.97 is listed. Also, I have downloaded BDInfo which says that my BD is "1080i / 29,970 fps / 16:9". This information is extracted from the Blu-Ray disc using the "CLIPINF" files - without the gfx card being involved at all.

So...either you are wrong or they are. Or have I got it all mixed up so that you are both right?

EDIT: Just read your post again. Trying to understand. You say "So the final video stream sent to the display is a sequence of frames with interval 16.68ms, i.e., 60 frames per second". But you also say "BD movie is always either 23.976 frames/sec or 24 frames/sec". How can those two sentences be equal?

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I think renethx may know more than wikipedia as anybody can edit wikipedia and it never is 100% accurate. Any article on wikipedia can say one thing one day and something totally opposite the next day.

And yes, all those different frame rates can exist at the same time but that does not mean that they have to be equal as they are mutually exclusive.

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post #12 of 17 Old 03-09-2012, 11:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

I think renethx may know more than wikipedia as anybody can edit wikipedia and it never is 100% accurate. Any article on wikipedia can say one thing one day and something totally opposite the next day.

And yes, all those different frame rates can exist at the same time but that does not mean that they have to be equal as they are mutually exclusive.

Though that is what it says isn't it. 24 != 60 and those tw sentences suggests they are equal. But I think renethx is talking about two different "kinds" of BD: Video and Movies. But I could be wrong (again). If I'm right however, there is too much information implied in those sentences. For example I can't even Google a difference between a "Video" and a "Movie" in technical terms.

Just to set it straight so that I'm not getting hammered just because I question someones post: All I want to do is to understand these concepts better. Wiki's structure might produce unreliable pages in theory. But in praxis it there are more pros than cons to the way Wiki works. I'd be very surprised if a page like "Blu-Ray Disc" turns out to be inaccurate!

And Wiki is not the only one talking about 1080i/29.97. The software "BDInfo" also reports my BD as 1080i/29.97.

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post #13 of 17 Old 03-09-2012, 11:23 AM
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There are different frame rates for different content.

The first part of renethx'x post is talking about a source that is 60fps but that isn't necessarily related to the second part of his post that retail blu-ray movies are 24fps.. The two statements are separate statements that are mutually exclusive of one another.

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post #14 of 17 Old 03-09-2012, 01:42 PM
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For "1080i29" its better to set display to 59. You can set display to 29, use EVR CP renderer, check its stats and watch half of frames dropping.

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post #15 of 17 Old 03-09-2012, 05:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ITemplate View Post

Well I'm using Bluray ISO's not MKV so that might change how easy it is?

Second - I'm not an expert at all, and I can't say I understand quite what you are saying. But I can see Wiki that has a nice table that shows what Blu-Ray supports.

Indeed, 1080i@29.97 is listed. Also, I have downloaded BDInfo which says that my BD is "1080i / 29,970 fps / 16:9". This information is extracted from the Blu-Ray disc using the "CLIPINF" files - without the gfx card being involved at all.

So...either you are wrong or they are. Or have I got it all mixed up so that you are both right?

EDIT: Just read your post again. Trying to understand. You say "So the final video stream sent to the display is a sequence of frames with interval 16.68ms, i.e., 60 frames per second". But you also say "BD movie is always either 23.976 frames/sec or 24 frames/sec". How can those two sentences be equal?

OK, I understand your point. Wiki says, "Frame rate". A simple conversion: "60 fields per second" = " 30 frames per second". When you write the resolution/progressive or interlaced/rate in the format "1080p/ixxx", xx is usually (i.e. by convention)

- xx = frame rate for progressive contents (e.g. 1080p24), "fps"
- xx - field rate for interlace contents (e.g. 1080i60), "fps" is still used with "f" = "frame", so it's xx/2 fps (e.g. "1920 pixels x 1080 pixels, 29.970 fps, interlaced"). The best practice is always add the unit "fps" and write this way, "1080i/30fps", "1080i@30fps", "1080 interlaced 30fps" etc. (The same wiki says, "Some manufacturers will list field rate for interlaced material, but this is incorrect industry practice. To avoid confusion, only FRAME rates should ever be listed." )

There are two types of videos:

- Film-based, shot by a movie camera, usually at the rate of 24 frames/s.
- Video-based, shot by a video camera, at the rate of 60 fields/s (NTSC), 50 fields/s (PAL), 30 frames/s, 60 frames/s (recent commercial camcorders). "Dire Straits Alchemy Live" is a typical one. (So the word "video" can have two meanings: video in general and video shot by a video camera.)

Video contents at 60/50 fields/s is interlaced (only half of the complete frame [i.e. top or bottom field] is recorded at a time, with the uniform time interval 1/60 = 16.68ms or 1/50 = 20ms). At the play back of such a content, a whole frame is created from neighboring fields by guess work (video-mode deinterlacing, weave, bob, adaptive, motion adaptive, vector adaptive etc.) and the graphics card outputs a video stream at the rate of 60/50 frames/s to the display. There is no perfect deinterlacing because the original information is incomplete.

There is "film-mode deinterlacing". This mode is applied to movies in DVD and broadcast (SD/HD) (the original film, a progressive video at 24/25 fps, is converted to an interlaced one at 60/50 fields/s to be stored in DVD or broadcast format: how; perhaps you've heard that DVD is always interlaced, that's true) to restore the original film at 24/25 fps. Unlike video-mode deinterlacing, film-mode deinterlacing should restore the original film perfectly. Keywords related to this topic are "inverse telecine (IVTC)" (a synonym for film-mode deinterlacing) and "pulldown detection" (detect the correct mode, film or video, and the pulldown or cadence pattern). Movies in BD are always progressive, so (film-mode) deinterlacing is unnecessary.

These are basic facts that everybody should know, but somehow it is hard to find a summary. If you read wiki articles, perhaps you will lose a global picture quickly because of too many technical terms, too broad, too superficial explanations.
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post #16 of 17 Old 03-09-2012, 05:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

I'm wondering, if you have a video that is 50fps or 60fps and you play it back with the on-board graphics of an intel i3-540 at 24fps will it effect the audio where it gets out of sync... more and more so as the video goes along to the point where it is 8 seconds out of sync after 120minutes or so of playback?

No, you won't see video/audio out of sync (usually). You just *lose* 50/60 - 24 = 26/36 frames per second. So playing back 50/60 fps (or 50/60 fields/s, which will be converted to 50/60 fps by a graphics card) contents at 24Hz is just wrong.
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post #17 of 17 Old 03-09-2012, 05:43 PM
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Okay. That's what I suspected. I just must have a bad rip of J. Edgar. I'll need to re-rip and try again.. thanks!

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