How Prevalent Is The 29/59 Bug? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 27 Old 03-27-2012, 12:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Like many others here, I have put in a lot of time building, tweaking, and troubleshooting my HTPC. After I installed my HDHR Prime last November, I noticed an issue which later turned out to be the infamous "29/59" bug.

After researching, I found out what causes this, and unfortunately, that currently no manufacture has any plans to either fix it or offer a work around. (Microsoft finally issued a KB article about the problem, but basically said tuff sh*t).

I "thought" I had performed a work around when (after more research) I purchased a Nvidia GT 430 HDMI display card. My initial issue involved slight stuttering during certain scenes involving camera pans. Replacing my old ATI based HDMI card with the Nvidia eliminated this problem.

In troubleshooting another (unrelated) issue, I replaced my hard drive temporarily. After re-installing my hard drive, an issue with the HDMI audio started. This was fixed by updating the cards drivers to the latest.

However, those drivers brought back the 29/59 bug, only now it's white flashes whenever the frame rate fluctuates between 29 and 59. I have hours and hours of shows from CBS that I can't watch because I don't want them to trigger seizures!!!

So my point is I'm starting to wonder if it was worth it to try and save less than $20 a month by returning my cable box. I have tons more storage, but I'm spending almost as much time trying to work out the bugs as actually watch anything.

Are most people having this kind of luck with W7MC? I think I had mine working great for maybe two weeks out of about 16!
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post #2 of 27 Old 03-27-2012, 06:05 PM
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I don't have a cablecard but I do have a qam tuner for locals, and the only channel that is affected by the 29/59 bug is CBS, but it definitely makes the channel unwatchable to me. If it is against your beliefs to torrent the shows that are affected and it really bothers you then I guess your only choice is going back to the cable box.
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post #3 of 27 Old 03-27-2012, 06:26 PM - Thread Starter
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No, it doesn't go against my beliefs. But to have to download each episode is too much work. Besides, I guess it would be easier to watch them on Hulu (assuming they're even available, which is part of the reason torrenting doesn't go against my beliefs, but that's another topic).

No, it worked perfectly once with this card, it can work again. I just have to decide at what point does the effort become too much for the reward.

I switched drivers yet again, this time using one of Nvidias older beta drivers. My initial tests shows it's fixed (for now), but I'll have to wait until tonight when I have time to really test it to know for sure.

I switched to an older driver, but that had another bug alltogether where WMC can display a program on a computer monitor connected thru VGA, but only black video through HDMI to an HDTV (a known Nvidia bug).

So I switched one more time to the beta driver.
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post #4 of 27 Old 03-27-2012, 06:50 PM
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So if this is an Nvidia issue, does it effect iGPU'S?

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post #5 of 27 Old 03-27-2012, 07:01 PM
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I just downloaded the last stable driver without the problem. 290.53, I think. It fixed everything for me.

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post #6 of 27 Old 03-27-2012, 07:14 PM
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Good grief, I'm glad I read this before bothering to update my Nvidia drivers. I ran into this problem too with a previous Radeon and was glad to be rid of it from the switch.
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post #7 of 27 Old 03-27-2012, 07:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hogues View Post

I just downloaded the last stable driver without the problem. 290.53, I think. It fixed everything for me.

I don't know how you know which are the latest "stable" drivers. I let their app run and detect my GPU and it downloaded 296.10, which returned me to the 29/59 problem.

I went with 285.79 because someone shomwhere posted those worked so I thought I'd try them.

Sammy2, afaik, the answer is YES. However, the only way to know for sure is to try it out. Two people can have the same card and one has the issue and the other does not.

If I find out later I still have this problem I'll try out 290.53 based on what hogues says. This sure takes away from my initial excitement about being able to control my cable recording!
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post #8 of 27 Old 03-27-2012, 08:46 PM
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Here is the Microsoft KB
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/2658140

IMHO its the worst bug in WMC.

I've found that the 280.26 NVIDIA drivers on GT430 work for me. The 285 series drivers produce judder, and any 290 series driver produces strobing/flashing.

Microsoft's "no fix" position on this bug is a killer.
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post #9 of 27 Old 03-28-2012, 06:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leebo View Post

I don't know how you know which are the latest "stable" drivers. I let their app run and detect my GPU and it downloaded 296.10, which returned me to the 29/59 problem.

I went with 285.79 because someone shomwhere posted those worked so I thought I'd try them.

Sammy2, afaik, the answer is YES. However, the only way to know for sure is to try it out. Two people can have the same card and one has the issue and the other does not.

If I find out later I still have this problem I'll try out 290.53 based on what hogues says. This sure takes away from my initial excitement about being able to control my cable recording!

I read that on thegreenbutton.tv . There are several threads devoted to NVIDIA drivers there. Here is the thread that I got my info from: http://www.thegreenbutton.tv/forums/...=1495&start=20

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post #10 of 27 Old 09-04-2012, 10:23 AM
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This problem still exists to this day.  Unfortunately the only people that know about this problem are people who have access to the original Premium digital cableTV mpeg2 video streams; such as CableCard users.

 

However, it's important to to know that there are two completely different symptoms caused by the same content; both of which you have pointed out below.

 

1.  Slight stutter during certain video scenes; such as when the video is panning.  Switching to my old Nvidia GT8500 (that came with my PC back in 2006) eliminated the problem.

 

2. Brief white flashes of during frame-rate switching.  This symptom CAN be fixed by with driver settings and any of the most recent Nvidia driver versions.

 

From what I can tell, the older ATI/Nvidia cards that don't have advanced hardware accelerated deinterlacing/IVTC, can play these videos smooth as silk.  Even with my 5th generation PurevideoHD GT640 display card with lots of GPU power can't handle these videos smoothly; which is a shame.

 

Although, MadVR should be able to handle this issue with raw CPU power; madVR isn't compatible with popular Media Center applications; unless the user wants to lose the whole Media Center experience; losing all graphics, menus, OSD during playback.

 

If it weren't for 3D bluray playback, I would seriously consider using my old 8500GT.  I'm not sure why this isn't a requirement when WHQL certifying display cards/drivers for Windows Media Center.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by leebo View Post

Like many others here, I have put in a lot of time building, tweaking, and troubleshooting my HTPC. After I installed my HDHR Prime last November, I noticed an issue which later turned out to be the infamous "29/59" bug.

After researching, I found out what causes this, and unfortunately, that currently no manufacture has any plans to either fix it or offer a work around. (Microsoft finally issued a KB article about the problem, but basically said tuff sh*t).

I "thought" I had performed a work around when (after more research) I purchased a Nvidia GT 430 HDMI display card. My initial issue involved slight stuttering during certain scenes involving camera pans. Replacing my old ATI based HDMI card with the Nvidia eliminated this problem.

In troubleshooting another (unrelated) issue, I replaced my hard drive temporarily. After re-installing my hard drive, an issue with the HDMI audio started. This was fixed by updating the cards drivers to the latest.

However, those drivers brought back the 29/59 bug, only now it's white flashes whenever the frame rate fluctuates between 29 and 59. I have hours and hours of shows from CBS that I can't watch because I don't want them to trigger seizures!!!

So my point is I'm starting to wonder if it was worth it to try and save less than $20 a month by returning my cable box. I have tons more storage, but I'm spending almost as much time trying to work out the bugs as actually watch anything.

Are most people having this kind of luck with W7MC? I think I had mine working great for maybe two weeks out of about 16!

Can your HTPC Media Center / DVR Do this??

SageTV: Unrestricted full-quality 12 tuner HD Premium Cable recording, including "On Demand" in HD + OTA ATSC + DVB-S2 + Blu-ray/HD-DVD serving 5 clients.
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post #11 of 27 Old 01-27-2014, 05:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, I'm back to this crap gain.

Due to having to format my HDD and re-install Win 7 a couple of weeks ago, I re-installed the same video driver that had been working so well for me since my last post in this thread (almost two years). But that same driver that avoided displaying any 29/59 issues (285.79) is now having problems. Specifically, the flashing/strobing issue.

I tried the latest driver for my GT430 (332.21) but that also has the same issue. Also tried 285.62.

I seem to remember (perhaps in another thread) someone mentioned disabling the auto contrast, but it appears to be disabled by default.

Does anyone know where I might find older drivers? Nvidias web site only seems to have 326.41 and above.
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post #12 of 27 Old 01-27-2014, 07:04 PM
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post #13 of 27 Old 01-28-2014, 04:19 PM
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Wow do you bring back a lot of bad memories. I remember doing my research and the GT 430 looked like exactly what I wanted. Bought it, installed it and had nothing but issues. Tried every fix under the sun. Finally went out and bought a HD 6670 and have never looked back. I almost gave up a number of times, but now have a system that blows the socks off anything a cable company offers. I have all my movies on my NAS and can access my content from both family room and bedroom without any issues. Best of all I can make tweaks when I want to. Take a look at the thread I put together a while back that outlines my setup.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1465156/miracle-htpc-front-end-setup

BTW this is the HD 6670 I bought. Not cheap, but like I said has worked like a champ and is fanless and therefore quiet.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102950
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post #14 of 27 Old 01-28-2014, 09:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rmerikle View Post

Wow do you bring back a lot of bad memories.

You just summed up my problem with women.

But now, see, thats also a big problem with this. Several people claim this card or that card "fixed" the issue, only when you try it, it doesn't help. In my case, the card DID fix it (after I found the right combination of drivers/settings). Only now, after changing only the cpu/MB/and ram, and re-installing everything, it no longer "fixes" it.

I am currently trying the fix referenced in the link above your post. I will report if whether I am successful or not.

Your card isn't unreasonably expensive, imo, but like I said, just because it worked for you...

I love that it's fanless, but it looks huge! And I absolutely hate CC. Any idea whether it'll run MadVR, and what level?

Anyway, off to read your thread.

Sent from my Nexus 7
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post #15 of 27 Old 01-29-2014, 05:17 AM
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I had a problem when watching some older OTA SD programs using WMC7. It looked liked frames were skipped several times per minute. HD programs always looked OK.

WMC7’s info screen would show the frame rate periodically flicker from 59 to 29 fps.

MPC-HC’s info screen also showed constantly changing frame rates on both SD & HD programs. And it’s audio & video graph lines were not stable even though HD images looked OK on the TV screen.

I installed a cheap HD6450 video card ($15 on sale & after rebate) & this corrected the SD skipping problem. Also the MPC-HC info screen now showed the frame rates rock steady and the audio & video graph lines steady & parallel. Even though I never saw an image problem with HD the specs were now improved, so I’d have to consider this a bonus.

From reading some comments it seems updating drivers sometimes creates a problem no matter which brand of video card is used. The original CCC driver worked just fine as far as I was concerned so I never updated it.
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post #16 of 27 Old 01-29-2014, 10:38 AM - Thread Starter
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There is an old thread over at The Green Button that explains exactly what causes this. Something to do with the source video signal being sent out with this 29/59 issue, which most devices (cable box, cable DVR, Xbox, etc.) able to react fast enough to the change in frame reate that the viewer never see's the issue, therefore remains ignorant about it, but in HTPC's, some video card/driver combos do not react quickly enough and it shows up in the display, either as studdering video, strobing, or something else. And by source, I mean the local affiliate that supplies the cable co. So for instance, with CBS, one market may have the issue, but another market may not. So it depends on where you are and what card/driver combo you have. With USA, HBO, I don't believe your location matters since they do not have local affiliates.

Even though your MPC-HC info screen shows the signal isn't doing it anymore, I believe that is an incorrect reading. Perhaps your new card doesn't react fast enough to display the problem

In any case, if you had the issue and figured out the correct card/driver combo, you should try not to ever change drivers.

Sent from my Nexus 7
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post #17 of 27 Old 01-30-2014, 03:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leebo View Post


Even though your MPC-HC info screen shows the signal isn't doing it anymore, I believe that is an incorrect reading. Perhaps your new card doesn't react fast enough to display the problem

The video card did solve the problem. IOW when using the video card MPC-HC displays a rock steady frame & the skipping is no longer there. I used a couple OTA SD recordings & the skipping always occurred at the same points in the videos which made it easy to keep track of. For example a person is walking on a sidewalk & all of sudden he's jumped ahead a bit like a frame or two is missing. With the video card everything is nice & smooth.

I have to look up my old notes but before installing the video card I seem to recall Windows Media Player played the SD programs OK. And MPC-HC also might have. IOW even though the frame rate was jumping around the other players corrected or handled the problem & displayed a steady picture.

As you mentioned supposedly the problem is in the source video. But I'm not sure how a video card or a video player corrects the frame rate. Everything that comes out of the HTPC is 1920 x 1080 60p according to the TV. Maybe the video card converts everything to 60p no matter what it was in the original source. But the $15 video card corrected the problem. And like you said I have no plans to update the driver.
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post #18 of 27 Old 01-30-2014, 07:20 AM
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I think I read somewhere that every time the source frame rate changes, the gpu has to reset. Some can do this fast enough and don't show the issue. I recently had to give up an HD7770 that I loved otherwise because the stuttering on my pay channels was driving me nuts. I put in an old 6450 and the stuttering went away. I had to tweak my madvr settings a little though.
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post #19 of 27 Old 07-24-2014, 01:33 PM
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Question Mike99 - HD6450 Catalyst Video Card Driver Working Version?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike99 View Post
Quote:Originally Posted by leebo 


Even though your MPC-HC info screen shows the signal isn't doing it anymore, I believe that is an incorrect reading. Perhaps your new card doesn't react fast enough to display the problem


The video card did solve the problem. IOW when using the video card MPC-HC displays a rock steady frame & the skipping is no longer there. I used a couple OTA SD recordings & the skipping always occurred at the same points in the videos which made it easy to keep track of. For example a person is walking on a sidewalk & all of sudden he's jumped ahead a bit like a frame or two is missing. With the video card everything is nice & smooth.

I have to look up my old notes but before installing the video card I seem to recall Windows Media Player played the SD programs OK. And MPC-HC also might have. IOW even though the frame rate was jumping around the other players corrected or handled the problem & displayed a steady picture.

As you mentioned supposedly the problem is in the source video. But I'm not sure how a video card or a video player corrects the frame rate. Everything that comes out of the HTPC is 1920 x 1080 60p according to the TV. Maybe the video card converts everything to 60p no matter what it was in the original source. But the $15 video card corrected the problem. And like you said I have no plans to update the driver.
Mike99,

What version of the catalyst video driver are you currently using that is working for you? I am buying the HD6450 card also and want to use the same driver to ensure that this 29/59 problem doesn't occur.

Thank you.
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post #20 of 27 Old 07-25-2014, 01:16 AM
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The CCC info screen it indicates:
Driver Packaging Version 8.982.0.0.…
Catalyst Version 11.4
Catalyst Control Center Version 2012.0806.1213.19931

The Windows Device Manager indicates Video driver 8.982.0.0 dated 7-27-2012. I downloaded it from the MSI website.

Originally I installed 8.840.0.0 from the disc that came with the video card, however the stuttering was still there.

After I installed 8.982.0.0 the stutter was gone so I left it that way.

What's the difference between the Catalyst Version and a Catalyst Control Center Version?

I haven’t played with this for quite some time so I’m not sure why I downloaded the driver vs. a new Catalyst version.

I see postings about Catalyst or CCC versions. Does installing a new driver change either of these Catalyst versions, and vice-versa?
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post #21 of 27 Old 08-08-2014, 01:21 PM
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Red face HD6450 fixes 29/59 bug

I can also confirm (thank you for the good information Mike99) that the HD6450 does indeed fix the 29/59 stutter problem. I purchased the ASUS HD6450-SL-2GD3-L model (silent) and have not looked back yet. Keep in mind that you will still see the 29/59 bouncing on the 411 Ctrl-D screen. However, that has no impact on normal viewing as no artifacts or stuttering occurs. I am using the latest (as of July 15th, 2014) drivers and everything is peachy. One note about the drivers though is that there is no longer a setting to disable dynamic contrast. However, this does not appear to have any effect on screen flashing (which I saw using older video cards).

Get yourself a HD6450, fire it up and enjoy. Then move onto the next problem to worry about (which in my case was HTPC HDMI synch issues while passing the video/audio signal through a receiver to the HDTV....which I fixed using a Gefen HDMI Detective).

Cheers!
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post #22 of 27 Old 08-08-2014, 11:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrb55 View Post
I can also confirm (thank you for the good information Mike99) that the HD6450 does indeed fix the 29/59 stutter problem. I purchased the ASUS HD6450-SL-2GD3-L model (silent) and have not looked back yet. Keep in mind that you will still see the 29/59 bouncing on the 411 Ctrl-D screen. However, that has no impact on normal viewing as no artifacts or stuttering occurs. I am using the latest (as of July 15th, 2014) drivers and everything is peachy. One note about the drivers though is that there is no longer a setting to disable dynamic contrast. However, this does not appear to have any effect on screen flashing (which I saw using older video cards).

Get yourself a HD6450, fire it up and enjoy. Then move onto the next problem to worry about (which in my case was HTPC HDMI synch issues while passing the video/audio signal through a receiver to the HDTV....which I fixed using a Gefen HDMI Detective).

Cheers!
Glad it worked for you, but that's by no means a slam dunk fix. I've had a 5450, 7770, and 7850, all have the same stuttering on specific 29/59 content.
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post #23 of 27 Old 08-09-2014, 01:22 AM
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Going back a year or two the Microsoft Experts Community had information about the 29/59 bug, but not anymore.

However some of it is available here. This is from 2012 and therefore newer video cards that work are not listed. You would think most newer cards would fix the problem but it appears they do not.
http://www.thegreenbutton.tv/wiki/in...ame_Rate_Issue
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post #24 of 27 Old 08-10-2014, 01:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StinDaWg View Post
Glad it worked for you, but that's by no means a slam dunk fix. I've had a 5450, 7770, and 7850, all have the same stuttering on specific 29/59 content.
Yep. Just because it's fixed for you doesn't mean it's fixed for everyone. I think it was 2011, but over the course of a year, I tried replacing my Nvidia GT430 with three AMD cards in the 6400-6600 range, and they were all worse for 29/59 stutter, plus they introduced a 29/59 glitch totally absent from the GT430, a sort of frame jumbling, where it looked like a frame was displayed out of sequence. This was distinct from the ordinary flicker, and all the glitches were immune to turning off all the post-processing. All my 29/59 problems have occurred with two different PCs and both my TV and my monitor.

The good news is, over the last year or so, I haven't been seeing 29/59 at all. It's still often there when I do the 411-info, but it isn't noticeable to me. So assuming my viewing habits are the same, either Nvidia or Microsoft (yeah right) made some improvements, or the broadcasters in my area are screwing up in more benign ways. I think it's probably mainly the latter, as there have always been people who've claimed 29/59 was fixed, but I don't doubt it's also partly the former, because I have one clip that still won't play cleanly but plays better than I remember.
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post #25 of 27 Old 08-10-2014, 05:20 PM
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I should add, when I first installed the HD6450 the 29/50 bug was still there & of course I was disappointed. Then I updated it's driver & that fixed the problem. I have not changed the driver since then. I realize my experience may not be what others experience. I just wanted to point out the article that mentioned which video cards that had worked for others.
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post #26 of 27 Old 08-10-2014, 07:08 PM
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I ran across this article, in case it might help!

http://www.thehtpc.net/htpc-tips-and...v-flicker-fix/
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post #27 of 27 Old 08-18-2014, 12:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StinDaWg View Post
Glad it worked for you, but that's by no means a slam dunk fix. I've had a 5450, 7770, and 7850, all have the same stuttering on specific 29/59 content.
For what it's worth I upgraded from an ati 5450hd card that had the problem. Going specifically to the 6450hd fixed it. This specific card seems to work well. I picked mine up from Amazon.com so if it didn't work it would have gone back.....therefore no risk.
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