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post #541 of 1023 Old 06-04-2012, 03:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Marc G View Post

The time and energy used to discuss the difference between processors has just surpassed the difference between processors as measured in time and energy. Kudos to both sides for having the fortitude to be steadfast in a matter others dismiss as inconsequential. Just kidding.
p.s. My box is better than yours.
p.p.s. Don't steal cable. Just borrow it and return it when you're done.

My feelings exactly. There is really no right or wrong answer.

Both answers are right... it really don't matter.

The performance and cost difference both are not significant. Argument can be made to go either way.

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post #542 of 1023 Old 06-04-2012, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

The performance and cost difference both are not significant. Argument can be made to go either way.

If it feels like I am trying to bust your chops, I am not. This isn't personal. It's not about personal choice. It's not even an argument.

I simply want to quantify, what the G620 gets me over the G530 in terms of benefit for HTPC. What am I spending the extra money on that makes my HTPC better for choosing the more expensive option?

BTW, if $10 isn't significant in a thread titled "Cheapest ever HTPC that's decent" then when is it significant?

 

 

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post #543 of 1023 Old 06-04-2012, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by StardogChampion View Post

If it feels like I am trying to bust your chops, I am not. This isn't personal. It's not about personal choice. It's not even an argument.

I simply want to quantify, what the G620 gets me over the G530 in terms of benefit for HTPC. What am I spending the extra money on that makes my HTPC better for choosing the more expensive option?

BTW, if $10 isn't significant in a thread titled "Cheapest ever HTPC that's decent" then when is it significant?

I like the G620 when you *might* need a little extra for something like transcoding (Plex Server, for example).
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post #544 of 1023 Old 06-04-2012, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Dark_Slayer View Post

each additional Watt at 20 hrs/wk comes to 1.1 kWh difference per year, so I could see the additional $10 never being recouped.

I'm fairly jaded from my parents first PC being a Covington instead of PII, so I'll likely never by a Celeron again for personal use. Pentium hits the budget mark just fine for me.

You realize these are just names right?

Has nothing to do with it being a "celeron" or "pentium" or whatever.
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post #545 of 1023 Old 06-04-2012, 04:34 PM - Thread Starter
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I guess I am just of the opinion you can't have too much CPU if it fits into your budget.

needed or not- Excess wins for me.

If people stuff i5's into HTPC's on this forum with regularity I hardly think criticizing a $10 upgrade to a G620/G630 is worth the effort.

Stardog- you never answered me what CPU you have in your HTPC?
and- if you currently run 3D or not ?

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post #546 of 1023 Old 06-04-2012, 04:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

I guess I am just of the opinion you can't have too much CPU if it fits into your budget.

needed or not- Excess wins for me.

The only time when this wouldn't apply is if you are trying to build a quiet system, especially in a small form factor. Excess CPU power often generates excess heat, and thus additional air movement using either additional fans or faster spinning fans to dissipate that heat. More/faster fans equals additional and often undesirable noise.

Where a quiet system is desired, using a low-power efficient processor that does the job adequately and saving money in the budget for high-quality cooling systems often makes more sense than overshooting on a powerful CPU.
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post #547 of 1023 Old 06-04-2012, 04:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeanM View Post

The only time when this wouldn't apply is if you are trying to build a quiet system, especially in a small form factor. Excess CPU power often generates excess heat, and thus additional air movement using either additional fans or faster spinning fans to dissipate that heat. More/faster fans equals additional and often undesirable noise.

Where a quiet system is desired, using a low-power efficient processor that does the job adequately and saving money in the budget for high-quality cooling systems often makes more sense than overshooting on a powerful CPU.

Not if your not using the CPU at full throttle.

And,

The difference between the CPU's we are discussing is pretty much non-exisistent. No advantage of significance one way or another... Power, heat, noise... all basically identical.

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post #548 of 1023 Old 06-04-2012, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

Not if your not using the CPU at full throttle.

Even at idle, more powerful CPUs use more power and thus generate more heat than less powerful, more efficient CPUs.

Quote:


And,

The difference between the CPU's we are discussing is pretty much non-exisistent. No advantage of significance one way or another... Power, heat, noise... all basically identical.

While I agree for the discussion here (G530 vs G620), I was responding to your generalized declaration that "more is always better." (paraphrasing)
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post #549 of 1023 Old 06-04-2012, 05:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

Stardog- you never answered me what CPU you have in your HTPC?
and- if you currently run 3D or not ?

No, I don't have 3D.

I have a G530 in my living room HTPC and a G620 in my bedroom HTPC. Before you say "ah hah!", the G530 hadn't come out yet when I got the G620 .

My other PCs are:
i3-2100/H61
i3-540/H55
i3-530/H55
E35M1-I
A6-3500/A75

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

If people stuff i5's into HTPC's on this forum with regularity I hardly think criticizing a $10 upgrade to a G620/G630 is worth the effort.

I'll stop beating a dead horse here, then. Because, if you think "criticizing" is all I am doing then you and everyone else has completely missed the point. I just want to know what's the real upgrade, what's the "more" that I get for spending the extra money for a G620 vs. G530 for everyday HTPC usage and how something's an "upgrade" or "more" if it's also "No advantage of significance one way or another... Power, heat, noise... all basically identical."

 

 

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post #550 of 1023 Old 06-04-2012, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by DeanM View Post

Even at idle, more powerful CPUs use more power and thus generate more heat than less powerful, more efficient CPUs.
)

Actually not much these days. It's one of the remarkable things about these SB and IB i3 and i5 cpus. There's not much "over building" power/heat/noise penalty in normal use. It's mostly just cost.
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post #551 of 1023 Old 06-04-2012, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Zon2020 View Post

Actually not much these days. It's one of the remarkable things about these SB and IB i3 and i5 cpus. There's not much "over building" power/heat/noise penalty in normal use. It's mostly just cost.

I did recently attempted an AMD A8 build in a ITX case and it was 70C at idle. It made me re-appreciate how cool the Intel CPUs run and still be powerful. I hope Trinity improves on this for AMD.
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post #552 of 1023 Old 06-04-2012, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by assassin View Post

I did recently attempted an AMD A8 build in a ITX case and it was 70C at idle. It made me re-appreciate how cool the Intel CPUs run and still be powerful. I hope Trinity improves on this for AMD.

I was surprised even how warm the E-350 runs. It was totally unexpected.

 

 

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post #553 of 1023 Old 06-04-2012, 06:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StardogChampion View Post

No, I don't have 3D.

I have a G530 in my living room HTPC and a G620 in my bedroom HTPC. Before you say "ah hah!", the G530 hadn't come out yet when I got the G620 .


I'll stop beating a dead horse here, then. Because, if you think "criticizing" is all I am doing then you and everyone else has completely missed the point. I just want to know what's the real upgrade, what's the "more" that I get for spending the extra money for a G620 vs. G530 for everyday HTPC usage and how something's an "upgrade" or "more" if it's also "No advantage of significance one way or another... Power, heat, noise... all basically identical."


No Stardog. I basically said I agree 95% and many times recommended the said G530. I have never said it would not work or people should get more.

It's the 5% left from the 95% I agree on that we disagree on. For me to say it's pointless to get anything other than a G530 for HTPC seems limited to me. $49 for a G620 is as equally good a value- and still is appropriate for this thread and budget builds.

I can't not recommend it.

My thinking in taking this position is for anyone looking at these other CPU's I would not want to discourage them. I have G530, G620, G630 and all are wonderful.

So my message for anyone considering any of the above is get what you want- they are all great.

It's not like the G530 and G630 benchmark the same. They don't. There is more CPU power in the G630 that justifies the $20, same with the G620 for justify $10 more over the G530. If a reader actually needs this or not- that is a different question and issue. For email and facebook- I would say no. For a HTPC that might see some additional media sharing- multiple streams, running PLEX, or encoding- sure the extra horsepower might be nice.

While I agree with you- I just don't want to throw a blanket over the whole thing and make readers of this thread think the only budget CPU appropriate is a G530 and anything above that is a waste. While possibly accurate for some, it's not true of all.

I say this because it's currently the lowest, cheapest and least powerful CPU in the Sandy line up- logic just assumes they make the higher end and faster CPU chips for a reason.

Many here have already built budget HTPC's with the $49 G620- and there is times where the coupon code is not valid on the G530- so after shipping the price difference is only $5. Call me crazy but I would go G620 every time for 5$. It is after all faster.

After all that disclaimer...

I think your right

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post #554 of 1023 Old 06-04-2012, 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by assassin View Post

You realize these are just names right?

Has nothing to do with it being a "celeron" or "pentium" or whatever.

Indeed I do, but being a newb consumer back in the day I didn't know better than to look at clock speed and the brand "intel" for price comparison. This one is $100 cheaper for the same thing? Wrong, and if you ever used a cache-less processor like the Covington celeron compared to a PII you would know where I'm coming from. Neither Windows 3.1 nor 95 could launch an application in under a minute. It felt like waiting for water to boil.

Similarly, people have the same experiences with names in mobos, ram, ssd, etc that offer the same thing. Specifically related to sandforce ssds, where manufacturer names can sometimes be interchangeable, people have the same feelings about a "name"

I suppose I could correct it with, "I'm illogically jaded towards the Celeron line because of a painful past experience"
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post #555 of 1023 Old 06-04-2012, 06:19 PM
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Did you know that when Ford developed the new Taurus they had the car but not the name when it was ready to be rolled out? (The Taurus SHO is a sweet car, btw).

Their marketing department concluded that although the majority of people had a negative opinion on the "Taurus" of the past it had excellent name recognition that would greatly decrease the amount of time/dollars to educate and sell the new "Taurus" to the public. So in the end they chose to call it the Taurus even though most people think "Taurus" is crap.

Same with the Celeron. It just a name and has absolutely ZERO bearing or relevance to your past experiences with Celeron.
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post #556 of 1023 Old 06-04-2012, 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by assassin View Post

Did you know that when Ford developed the new Taurus they had the car but not the name when it was ready to be rolled out?

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Same with the Celeron. It just a name and has absolutely ZERO bearing or relevance to your past experiences with Celeron.

Agreed, hence "I'm illogically jaded"
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post #557 of 1023 Old 06-04-2012, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by assassin View Post


I did recently attempted an AMD A8 build in a ITX case and it was 70C at idle. It made me re-appreciate how cool the Intel CPUs run and still be powerful. I hope Trinity improves on this for AMD.

My new 3570k runs in the high 30s most of the time. Admittedly it's in a big case with plenty of ventilation but still you think back to when you could heat the house with a Core2Quad. It's amazing how cool something as powerful as that chip runs (with stock cooler too although I replaced the thermal grease).
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post #558 of 1023 Old 06-04-2012, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Zon2020 View Post

My new 3570k runs in the high 30s most of the time. Admittedly it's in a big case with plenty of ventilation but still you think back to when you could heat the house with a Core2Quad. It's amazing how cool something as powerful as that chip runs (with stock cooler too although I replaced the thermal grease).

It is amazing. I think the hottest running PC in my house now is my work IBM T61 laptop. With PCs, heat always means waste so it's great to see. I only hope it keeps improving and that something more mainstream than the picoPSU comes along to accompany it.

 

 

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post #559 of 1023 Old 06-04-2012, 07:39 PM
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G530/H61 FTW!




 

 

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post #560 of 1023 Old 06-04-2012, 09:24 PM
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Originally Posted by StardogChampion View Post

G530/H61 FTW!


You building a render farm or something?
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post #561 of 1023 Old 06-04-2012, 09:40 PM
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You building a render farm or something?

Not likely with a G530. It'll be cheaper Cheaper to build one i5/i7-based PC which can do the same amount of work as 4 PC's with G530's.

However, I'm very curious what all those computers will be used for. Business or something?
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post #562 of 1023 Old 06-04-2012, 09:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Zon2020 View Post

Actually not much these days. It's one of the remarkable things about these SB and IB i3 and i5 cpus. There's not much "over building" power/heat/noise penalty in normal use. It's mostly just cost.

There is a big difference between my i7-2600 (dev machine) and the i3-2100T in my htpc, but I realize that is an extreme that we are not really debating here.
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post #563 of 1023 Old 06-04-2012, 09:48 PM
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Originally Posted by DeanM View Post


There is a big difference between my i7-2600 (dev machine) and the i3-2100T in my htpc, but I realize that is an extreme that we are not really debating here.

At load sure, but I'd be surprised if there was a huge difference at idle or while just watching a movie, depending of course on what else is in the box.
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post #564 of 1023 Old 06-04-2012, 09:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Zon2020 View Post

At load sure, but I'd be surprised if there was a huge difference at idle or while just watching a movie, depending of course on what else is in the box.

Big difference. I7 idles in the mid 40s. I3 idles in the low 30s. And those temps are with an absolute giant HSF on the i7... stock HSF on the i3.
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post #565 of 1023 Old 06-04-2012, 10:02 PM
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I got a G620 because it was a lot cheaper than the i3 I originally planned to use. And for $49.99 it seemed like a lot of bang for the buck & it works with the $25 mobo.

So far I have spent $213 (With the shipping & tax was $228). I just ordered an OTA dual tuner card for $70, tax included. That will bring me in just under $300. This includes a 1.5TB HDD because I need storage for recordings.
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post #566 of 1023 Old 06-05-2012, 05:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zon2020 View Post


My new 3570k runs in the high 30s most of the time. Admittedly it's in a big case with plenty of ventilation but still you think back to when you could heat the house with a Core2Quad. It's amazing how cool something as powerful as that chip runs (with stock cooler too although I replaced the thermal grease).

My 2600k i7 runs the same.

It will run in normal range temps while encoding a video in moderate over clock state. 4.6ghz.

But I have a much larger case than anyone on these forums. And lots of fans including 212 EVO CPU fan.

While impressive... It won't translate to a little box or silent build HTPC.

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post #567 of 1023 Old 06-06-2012, 08:56 AM
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Keeping with the "cheap" theme:

Crucial M4 256GB 2.5" SATA III Solid State Drive (SSD) - CT256M4SSD2
http://www.buy.com/prod/crucial-m4-256gb-2-5-sata-iii-solid-state-drive-ssd/221150375.html
$179.00 + free shipping

 

 

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post #568 of 1023 Old 06-06-2012, 08:57 AM
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Those were new PCs for the kids' school. There was one more and that one I put together in front of the 7-8th grade science class.

The case is the Antec NSK4482B.

 

 

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post #569 of 1023 Old 06-06-2012, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeanM View Post


Big difference. I7 idles in the mid 40s. I3 idles in the low 30s. And those temps are with an absolute giant HSF on the i7... stock HSF on the i3.

You have to have the same system, with the same software and same peripherals, in the same case and location, doing the same thing, to compare two systems.

SilentPCReview has reported in its tests of the various Sandy Bridge processors that the power consumption at idle and in playing an H264 video (which they characterize as "light load") for these processors are as follows. (I've also included Passmark scores to give some indication of the relative power of these processors). Note that these levels are while using a discrete video card, NOT the integrated graphics, which they do because in these articles they also compare AMD chips like Phenoms and Athlons that don't have integrated graphics. But they still give a true representation of the relative power consumption of these chips.

Processor Idle W / H264 playback W / Passmark Score

i3-2100 38/53/3856

i5-2400 38/54/6146

i5-2500K 38/55/6740

i7-2600K 38/55/9083

i7-3770K 40/50/10434

Typically we're putting i7s in heavier duty builds with bigger motherboards, more drives, bigger PSU, and more peripherals, so they may look like they use more power. And certainly under full load they draw more power, but it's questionable whether then end up using more power to complete a specific task because, except in things like watching a video where the time required is fixed, they get the task done more quickly.

But the point is that at idle and under light loads like watching video (and in contrast to previous generations of processors where quad cores were generally power hogging heat monsters) these new chips use almost the identical amount of power even though they represent a vast range of processing power.

So, for an HTPC, it's doubtful that you pay any significant penalty in terms of heat/cooling/noise to use an i5 rather than an i3 because for most of what you would be doing they're going to use about the same power. And for those few processing power intensive HTPC tasks like encoding, you'll obviously get the job done quicker (although then you will be using more wattage and generating more heat). But the primary drawback is simply that it's a waste of money because that video isn't going to look any better on the more powerful machine. But if you want to waste the money, I don't see any other major drawback, unlike in the past when using too much cpu was counterproductive in terms of keeping the maching quiet.

Indeed, I'll confess that I'm seriously considering putting an i5-3450 in an upcoming ITX htpc build, just for the hell of it, and because at $149 (Micro Center) it's a great buy for a monster of a cpu. Yes, I know it's unecessary and overkill, but hey, it's fun.
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post #570 of 1023 Old 06-06-2012, 08:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StardogChampion View Post

Those were new PCs for the kids' school. There was one more and that one I put together in front of the 7-8th grade science class.

Did you get it all done in one class period? And did it post?biggrin.gif
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Asrock , Asrock Z87m Extreme4 Lga1150 Intel Z87 Chipset Ddr3 Quad Crossfirex Quad Sli Sata3 Usb3 0 Microatx M , Intel Core I5 3570 3 4 Ghz Processor , Intel Pentium G2020 2 9ghz Lga 1155 Dual Core Desktop Processor , Intel Pentium G3220 3 0ghz Lga 1150 Dual Core Desktop Processor , Intel , Amd , Amd A10 6700 Richland 4 2ghz Socket Fm2 65w Quad Core Desktop Processor Amd Radeon Hd Ad6700okhlbox , Amd A6 5400k 3 6ghz Socket Fm2 Dual Core Desktop Processor , Amd A8 5600k 3 6ghz Socket Fm2 Quad Core Desktop Processor , Amd A6 3650 2 6ghz Socket Fm1 Quad Core Desktop Apu Cpu Gpu With Directx 11 Graphic , Asus , Asus Computer , Asus Us , Asus Components , Asus Computer International Direct
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