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post #241 of 316 Old 05-08-2012, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by GreenEyez View Post

So you`re complaining that an interface designed for touchscreens works like crap with a mouse and keyboard on a desktop...wow, who would have thought that .

Microsoft didn't, nor did the people defending the thing. I can understand Microsoft's desperation after losing the phone and tablet markets overcoming their common sense.

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If the Metro interface actually worked with a mouse and keyboard, that it would be the default Win 8 interface, Windows would boot right into it, not a sub-section of the main GUI, which can only be accessed via a button, while the rest of the Win 8 GUI is just Win 7 + some added options in the Explorer windows.

Huh? Metro is what you boot into in the preview. The latest technology-of-the-day from Microsoft is Metro apps, which run full screen and kill off the taskbar, the Windows 7 improvements to which being the one great UI innovation since Windows 95. Microsoft also removed the Start Button from the taskbar, which has been part of the Windows interface since Windows 95, which everybody knows. (I already explained why that doesn't bother me nearly as much as everyone who posts in threads like this, but it's still significant.)

This is a shocking set of changes and directions, and then there's the adopting of UI design bloopers embodied in numerous things like "The 4 Corners". You don't seem to quite get all this.
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post #242 of 316 Old 05-08-2012, 02:00 PM
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Nobody wants Linux for a desktop OS except techies. There was little departure from 98 to XP in terms of interface design or navigation mechanics. All the basics remained the same. Windows Vista and Windows 7 are big departures but allow you to return to the Classic interface.




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Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post

Because the majority have grown up with the desktop gui, or finally got used to it, if they did not use Windows from the get go. I remember when Windows became mainstream finally with Windows 95. People were refusing to switch from Dos to Windows 98, because they were used to booting into Dos and doing stuff that way, than being restricted to only doing stuff in the Gui. Then when XP came out, they threw tantrums like a 3 year old, because they hated the change, even though it really cleaned up how the gui behaved and looked.

Now they are really going to be throwing a fit again, because the majority really does not want to deal with the metro interface, and would rather have it as a option. Microsoft needs to learn if they are going to make a change, allow the user to decide what gui or interface they want, just like how it is done with Linux. Even when Apple came out with OS-X, you could still use OS-9, until they phased it out.


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post #243 of 316 Old 05-08-2012, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by mobius View Post

Nobody wants Linux for a desktop OS except techies.

I don't know about that. After finally giving Linux a shot for the for the first time this past week it was nothing like I was expecting. I'd feel fully comfortable sitting my mom or anyone else down in front of Mint or Ubuntu running Cinnamon.



Now that's how you do a start menu. Seeing it in action I'd say it's superior in form and function than anything MS has put out.

Edit: changed to smaller pic
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post #244 of 316 Old 05-08-2012, 05:57 PM
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I like Mint 12 actually better than Ubuntu (based on each other).

If your moving from Windows or OSX you'll still have issues (however minor) with Linux.

My problem with Linux and will remain that way is hardware support and both camps point fingers at each other. My ATI Tuner has drivers and will work, but my Cat's Eye 150 has no driver support and can't be used, leaves me with one tuner = No Go

Otherwise it boots faster, its much more streamlined because its not bloated with many programs you'll never use. Of course MS and the OEM's do deals with software makers to get discounts on software in exchange for being the default DVD Playback software or something else.

However I agree that Linux is not quite ready for prime time. I would say another development cycle might put it on par with Windows, but Windows 8 likely moves the goal post again.

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post #245 of 316 Old 05-08-2012, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by evilengineer View Post

Well, from that Building Windows blog post its looking like Win8 is a complete wash out.
  1. definate confirmation that Pro is required for WMC
  2. Heavy hints that the WMC you pay for in Win8 for will be exactly the same as the one you got for "free" in Win7
  3. No Blu-ray playback. (not a big surprise)
  4. DVD playback REMOVED!
  5. No FLAC

Looks like you'll be relying on third party "apps" for pretty much everything. At least it states that Metro apps can use non-Microsoft decoders for FLAC/MKV etc.

Numbers 3 and 4 are good news if your name is Cyberlink or Arcsoft as well!

Why would you expect default FLAC support? How many mobile and automotive playback devices support FLAC?

FLAC is the domain for SQ geeks that always found some flaw with compressed audio. Now that 1TB is fairly cheap, space is no longer an issue with most music. Otherwise, its not supported by many things...

DVD Playback isn't that much a shock, how many of us in the HTPC work even use physical deal still? They likely find most people don't use that feature very often.

The structure of WMC doesn't need revolutionary change, just evolutionary change, so why would be a ton different than what is now?

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post #246 of 316 Old 05-08-2012, 07:06 PM
 
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Originally Posted by dj4monie View Post

However I agree that Linux is not quite ready for prime time. I would say another development cycle might put it on par with Windows, but Windows 8 likely moves the goal post again.

Not quite ready for prime time? It has been mainstream for at least the past four years, has been out since 99, and every edition gets more robust and shows Windows the door.

If you want drivers for certain hardware, there are lists available that tell you if it is compatible, or how to load the Windows drivers. Sorry, but Linux has been prime time for a very long time. Mac's run on a derivative of BSD, so really with you stating that it is not ready for prime time, just shows ignorance of why some people chose certain operating systems.

I do photo editing, spreadsheets, documents, databases on a Linux system, and if I wanted to, I could also plug in a tuner card that is compatible with Linux and it would work.
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post #247 of 316 Old 05-08-2012, 07:11 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mobius View Post

Nobody wants Linux for a desktop OS except techies. There was little departure from 98 to XP in terms of interface design or navigation mechanics. All the basics remained the same. Windows Vista and Windows 7 are big departures but allow you to return to the Classic interface.

There is a large difference in the interface between XP & 98. Vista & 7 just cleaned up the gui along with a lot of items that were due to evolution, which was caused by a lot of hardware manufacturers finally getting on board, due to not wanting to do what MS told them to do when XP was put out in the market. Funny or not, hardware manufacturers are actually wring more drivers for Linux now, than Windows.

And as for your statement of nobody wants Linux for a desktop OS except for techies, again another mis-statement by someone illinformed. I use a Windows XP workstation at work, and Ubuntu 12.04LTS at home and would rather use Linux over Windows, because it works, and does not freeze when I need it to do something. Also, there are more servers running some form of Linux over Windows these days.
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post #248 of 316 Old 05-08-2012, 07:26 PM
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gregzoll,

Guess how I got my wife to use Linux?

I installed Windows 7 on her computer.

Guess how I'm keeping her on Linux?

I installed Windows 8 Consumer Preview in a VirtualBox.

Jerry
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post #249 of 316 Old 05-08-2012, 07:39 PM
 
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Originally Posted by jawilljr View Post

gregzoll,

Guess how I got my wife to use Linux?

I installed Windows 7 on her computer.

Guess how I'm keeping her on Linux?

I installed Windows 8 Consumer Preview in a VirtualBox.

Jerry

Only time I go use the lone Windows 7 machine in our house, which holds our music library, is if I need to reload music on our iPhones (yes, multiple, more than one), which has been rare, other than having to update my wife's iPhone to iOS 5.1.1. Other than that, it sits collecting dust, shut down doing nothing. Here soon, that machine will be going bye bye and get turned into a server running a 64bit Linux server package, to run databases.
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post #250 of 316 Old 05-08-2012, 10:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dj4monie View Post

Why would you expect default FLAC support? How many mobile and automotive playback devices support FLAC?

I thought we were talking about computers (and possibly tablets). Not phones and cars.

But a quick google search would seem to suggest that Android supports "native" FLAC playback. I don't have an Android device so can't really comment.

And portable CD quality can't be that weird. Apple have supported their ALAC format for years on ipod!

Quote:
Originally Posted by dj4monie View Post

FLAC is the domain for SQ geeks that always found some flaw with compressed audio. Now that 1TB is fairly cheap, space is no longer an issue with most music. Otherwise, its not supported by many things...

Wanting to listen to music at quality levels considered state of the art in 1978 can hardly be classed as "SQ geek". Not caring is fair enough but if can't tell the difference between MP3 and CD quality then your ears must be broken. I've been going to heavy metal gigs for twenty years and can still tell.

Space is always an issue. Hard drive usage has practical limits, you can't just keep adding extra drives ad-infinitum. Music has to share space with other stuff too!

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Originally Posted by dj4monie View Post

Otherwise, its not supported by many things...

I can think of dozens of NAS devices, streamers (both audio-centric and general) and AV amplifiers that support FLAC. I don't see why my PC shouldn't as well.
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post #251 of 316 Old 05-08-2012, 11:34 PM
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Originally Posted by evilengineer View Post

Wanting to listen to music at quality levels considered state of the art in 1978 can hardly be classed as "SQ geek". Not caring is fair enough but if can't tell the difference between MP3 and CD quality then your ears must be broken. I've been going to heavy metal gigs for twenty years and can still tell.

I really wish I could place bets and perform ABX testing on everyone I've heard say things like that. It would be like owning a casino. Even better if I could use AAC. For MP3, I'd start with LAME -V2 and greatly increase my bets moving on up. You might find this slide show presentation interesting (sorry, the actual paper costs):

http://www.music.mcgill.ca/~hockman/...tation2009.pdf

Their findings included:

Trained listeners can not discriminate between CD quality and mp3 compression (256-320 kb/s) while expert listeners could.

Note that this experiment was conducted using a high-end system in a dedicated listening lab under ideal conditions, with the subjects concentrating intently on trying to hear differences. Anyone who wants to test at home can try foobar2000's ABX comparator; just be sure you convert from lossless to lossy yourself to ensure you're comparing the exact same recording.
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post #252 of 316 Old 05-09-2012, 02:02 AM
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Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post

Not quite ready for prime time? It has been mainstream for at least the past four years, has been out since 99, and every edition gets more robust and shows Windows the door.

If you want drivers for certain hardware, there are lists available that tell you if it is compatible, or how to load the Windows drivers. Sorry, but Linux has been prime time for a very long time. Mac's run on a derivative of BSD, so really with you stating that it is not ready for prime time, just shows ignorance of why some people chose certain operating systems.

I do photo editing, spreadsheets, documents, databases on a Linux system, and if I wanted to, I could also plug in a tuner card that is compatible with Linux and it would work.

My Cat's Eye 150 does not have a Linux driver and Vbox doesn't support it anymore. But it works fine under XP Media Center, Vista Media Center and Windows 7 Media Center.

I would only recommend Linux for somebody that has no money to pay for Windows. A former classmate I turned onto Linux (Mint) runs it on his newly Intel i3 build he just finished. My A+ instructor is a Intel zealot so he suggested be buy a mid-range Z67 board and I think i3 2500. #smh

I got Triple Core AMD A6-3500, Motherboard (ASRock), 4GB of Memory (1600Mhz) and tomorrow pick up my $50 OCZ Agility 3 60GB SSD, total invested about $230....

So with no money left to run W7 and since he had W7 on a laptop, he decided to dual boot with XP and Mint 12.

Puppy Arcade would not see my Gravis Gamepad Pro (Playstation Clone) and nobody could help me. There's a Puppy Arcade sticky thread on the Puppy Linux forums, no help, no dice, I think I deleted the iso....

Want more? At Occupy Los Angeles they wanted a file server to put pictures and videos to be uploaded to the Livestream feed and to You Tube. At first I thought a simple NAS would be plenty. I tried FreeNAS, ummm I couldn't get it to install from disc or flash drive, tried three different releases and it was on Intel hardware. I tried Amahi, again ran into install problems. I got Ubuntu Server to work, installed and even a GUI for the client PC's to work. But while I was away somebody screwed it up and took HDD it was on for different PC... I said screw it, had an .iso of Windows Home Server v1 and installed that, no muss not fuss, had client connector on both Windows and Mac's, done, done and done.

IMHO Linux is not for somebody that barely knows how to use the internet. Mint and Ubuntu desktop have a directory where you can download and install programs. No such beast for Ubuntu server its all sudu-get, yadda, yadda.

Now that I will have an extra motherboard, memory, cpu and IDE drive, I'll find some cheap case and run some Linux distros on it so I am not using my main machines to experiment.

I like the idea of Linux and Open Source in general and I support it. However, its not that mature. The core of it might be but the GUI and some of the support software is not.

Finally XBMC does strange things with the Yahoo Add-on and my subscriptions. ROM Collector Browser does not match Gametime/Game Browser or Hyper Spin. ESPN3 Add-on has never worked and I'm not the only one with a problem. It works fine, but SecondRunTV 2.0 works fine with ESPN3 though not the way I want.

I want to like XBMC but it has issues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post

There is a large difference in the interface between XP & 98. Vista & 7 just cleaned up the gui along with a lot of items that were due to evolution, which was caused by a lot of hardware manufacturers finally getting on board, due to not wanting to do what MS told them to do when XP was put out in the market. Funny or not, hardware manufacturers are actually wring more drivers for Linux now, than Windows.

And as for your statement of nobody wants Linux for a desktop OS except for techies, again another mis-statement by someone illinformed. I use a Windows XP workstation at work, and Ubuntu 12.04LTS at home and would rather use Linux over Windows, because it works, and does not freeze when I need it to do something. Also, there are more servers running some form of Linux over Windows these days.

True but look at my post above this reply. That would scare many Linux newbies away...

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Originally Posted by evilengineer View Post

I thought we were talking about computers (and possibly tablets). Not phones and cars.

But a quick google search would seem to suggest that Android supports "native" FLAC playback. I don't have an Android device so can't really comment.

And portable CD quality can't be that weird. Apple have supported their ALAC format for years on ipod!



Wanting to listen to music at quality levels considered state of the art in 1978 can hardly be classed as "SQ geek". Not caring is fair enough but if can't tell the difference between MP3 and CD quality then your ears must be broken. I've been going to heavy metal gigs for twenty years and can still tell.

Space is always an issue. Hard drive usage has practical limits, you can't just keep adding extra drives ad-infinitum. Music has to share space with other stuff too!

I can think of dozens of NAS devices, streamers (both audio-centric and general) and AV amplifiers that support FLAC. I don't see why my PC shouldn't as well.

Correct I hear no difference between high bit rate MP3, high bit rate WMA and FLAC of the same disc, well two -

Madonna's You Can Dance CD mixed by one John "Jellybean" Benitez.

The other is Strange Behavior Duran-Duran's 12" singles and remixes

Look at my screen name

I have high quality Sony Headphones I DJ with. The sound card is 24-bit stereo made by Hercules. Its inside a DJ Console RMX and Console 4-Set.

FLAC IMHO is overrated and for SQ geeks I stand by my statement, the files sizes are barely smaller than standard wave files. If you listen to acoustic jazz or classical music, okay FLAC and Tube Amps make a difference.

But Lil Wayne's D*ck Pleaser is not going to make any difference, it will still rattled the windows as I roll by. If its compressed down to 64kps sounds like muffled FM, but no difference between 128kps and 256kps using Lame.

To carry this a bit further, one of the first digital to digital transfers (DAT) was done by Curtis "Mantronik" for the album In Full Effect. Compressed down to 128k it sounds no different than the actual wave file.

FLAC is not mainstream, ask somebody on the street, they've never heard of it. Its about as mainstream as .MKV support....

Waaa, VLC plays FLAC's by default. I am not sure it will work with the media players available for Android and no car audio player will playback FLAC files. I could get them to play with Virtual DJ by using the Windows Media Player codec....

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post #253 of 316 Old 05-09-2012, 04:24 AM
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It’s obvious MS is leaving the shrinking techies market, they are dummying down the UI and focusing more on the mainstream consumer market. They could care less if they piss off the now very small PC geek market. Unfortunetly Apple has the “simple and pretty OS” market in a strangle hold right now, but without Jobs long term vision MS thinks it a good time to grab some off the tablet and phone market. A major problem is that MS is horrible at marketing to your average person, as has been the case with Windows phone. Marketing to the "make it both easy to use and trendy" market is something Apple has learned to do very well.
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post #254 of 316 Old 05-09-2012, 05:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Artslinger View Post

It's obvious MS is leaving the shrinking techies market, they are dummying down the UI and focusing more on the mainstream consumer market. They could care less if they piss off the now very small PC geek market. Unfortunetly Apple has the simple and pretty OS market in a strangle hold right now, but without Jobs long term vision MS thinks it a good time to grab some off the tablet and phone market. A major problem is that MS is horrible at marketing to your average person, as has been the case with Windows phone. Marketing to the "make it both easy to use and trendy" market is something Apple has learned to do very well.

I'm guessing your including the HTPC user in the 'shrinking techies market', which does seem to be what MS are doing. Cater for the masses, not for the minority seems to be the order of the day, and it's true that in every release of Windows, more and more config options are being hidden away. Metro is about as 'dumbed down' an interface as you could get.
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post #255 of 316 Old 05-09-2012, 06:57 AM
 
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Catering for the masses is the smart thing to do for any company which has the masses as their main userbase.
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post #256 of 316 Old 05-09-2012, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by tman247 View Post

I'm guessing your including the HTPC user in the 'shrinking techies market', which does seem to be what MS are doing. Cater for the masses, not for the minority seems to be the order of the day, and it's true that in every release of Windows, more and more config options are being hidden away. Metro is about as 'dumbed down' an interface as you could get.

I don't know if I should be mad at Apple for starting the dumbing everything down trend or at the population for not being smart enough to use a basic damn computer.

IMO this is JRiver's and XMBC's time to strike. If Microsoft effectively leaves the HTPC market, the first one to support cablecards without it being buggy will have a leg up on the competition. I'm still waiting on a do everything well interface.
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post #257 of 316 Old 05-09-2012, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by tima94930 View Post

Huh? Metro is what you boot into in the preview. The latest technology-of-the-day from Microsoft is Metro apps, which run full screen and kill off the taskbar, the Windows 7 improvements to which being the one great UI innovation since Windows 95. Microsoft also removed the Start Button from the taskbar, which has been part of the Windows interface since Windows 95, which everybody knows. (I already explained why that doesn't bother me nearly as much as everyone who posts in threads like this, but it's still significant.)

This is a shocking set of changes and directions, and then there's the adopting of UI design bloopers embodied in numerous things like "The 4 Corners". You don't seem to quite get all this.



lol ah the old response to belittle others that don't hold your opinion.

all i can say is that sometimes it takes a drastic change to make serious progress. if win 8 is a failure as im sure you hope it is, then either windows drops off the map forever, or MS makes changes to bring it back.

its a big risk, they are already upsetting people as can be seen in many places. it will come down to the finished product and how its received by consumers at large on both desktops and tablets.




Quote:
Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post

Not quite ready for prime time? It has been mainstream for at least the past four years, has been out since 99, and every edition gets more robust and shows Windows the door.

If you want drivers for certain hardware, there are lists available that tell you if it is compatible, or how to load the Windows drivers. Sorry, but Linux has been prime time for a very long time. Mac's run on a derivative of BSD, so really with you stating that it is not ready for prime time, just shows ignorance of why some people chose certain operating systems.

I do photo editing, spreadsheets, documents, databases on a Linux system, and if I wanted to, I could also plug in a tuner card that is compatible with Linux and it would work.



Linux has come a long way, certainly a viable option for a full time OS. But I'm not sure how it runs circles around windows. People like to dog windows as being slow or unstable, but I really think those are stereotypes that continue to this day.

Heck, Windows 7 is the pinnacle of stable for me. My xp pcs were solid too, but 7 just did so much more. My htpcs with win 7 have been rock solid as well. I don't get why linux users feel the need to just crush windows or windows users.

Right now, alot of this is subjective preferences. Linux has advantages that appeal to some just as Windows and Mac does. Linux is certainly a legitimate 3rd option thanks to improvements in driver support and even ease of use, but to rant and rave about it smashing windows isn't true at all. So just enjoy what appeals to you the most.
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post #258 of 316 Old 05-17-2012, 04:58 AM
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post #259 of 316 Old 05-17-2012, 04:58 AM
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The ^ XX.XX is supposed to be 14.99.
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post #260 of 316 Old 05-17-2012, 05:03 AM
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^ and I have to assume this is because without getting Pro, you'd lose DVD playback and Media Center after the upgrade. I will further assume that the $15 will be the price to upgrade from Win8 to Pro.
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post #261 of 316 Old 05-17-2012, 07:12 AM
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^ and I have to assume this is because without getting Pro, you'd lose DVD playback and Media Center after the upgrade. I will further assume that the $15 will be the price to upgrade from Win8 to Pro.

http://www.winsupersite.com/blog/sup...cost-15-143077
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post #262 of 316 Old 05-17-2012, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Artslinger View Post

It's obvious MS is leaving the shrinking techies market, they are dummying down the UI and focusing more on the mainstream consumer market.

It's funny but people said the same thing when they left command line based DOS and moved to GUI Windows. They were abandoning the techies and pandering to the idiots who couldn't bother to learn to type simple commands.

Happens every time they try to make things easier for most people. Some people complain "well I know how to use it already; I don't need it to be made easier."
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post #263 of 316 Old 05-17-2012, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by dj4monie View Post

FLAC IMHO is overrated and for SQ geeks I stand by my statement, the files sizes are barely smaller than standard wave files. If you listen to acoustic jazz or classical music, okay FLAC and Tube Amps make a difference..

Have you tried metatagging a WAV file - or transcoding an Mp3 file as your master data file?

Do that and come back and review your statement. Its got nothing to do with tube amps and everything to do with data integrity and management. Which no surprise any digital audiophile will be interested in, same as they were interested in treating their vinyl carefully and organising it meticulously.
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post #264 of 316 Old 05-18-2012, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Zon2020 View Post

It's funny but people said the same thing when they left command line based DOS and moved to GUI Windows. They were abandoning the techies and pandering to the idiots who couldn't bother to learn to type simple commands.

Happens every time they try to make things easier for most people. Some people complain "well I know how to use it already; I don't need it to be made easier."


That's a great point, very true.

There is a sense of shock floating around that will require time to pass.
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post #265 of 316 Old 05-18-2012, 08:32 AM
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In addition to the usual free or cheap upgrade for people who buy a machine with the current version in the 6 months or so before release of a new version, with Windows 7 MS also offered to everyone upgrade copies of the various flavors of W7 for 50% off for like the first 30 days after release. It was a really good buy. I'm hoping they do that again.
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post #266 of 316 Old 05-18-2012, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by JackDiesel14 View Post

I don't know if I should be mad at Apple for starting the dumbing everything down trend or at the population for not being smart enough to use a basic damn computer.

IMO this is JRiver's and XMBC's time to strike. If Microsoft effectively leaves the HTPC market, the first one to support cablecards without it being buggy will have a leg up on the competition. I'm still waiting on a do everything well interface.

Nice thought, Jack. We're with you.

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post #267 of 316 Old 05-19-2012, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Zon2020 View Post

It's funny but people said the same thing when they left command line based DOS and moved to GUI Windows. They were abandoning the techies and pandering to the idiots who couldn't bother to learn to type simple commands.

Happens every time they try to make things easier for most people. Some people complain "well I know how to use it already; I don't need it to be made easier."

Trouble is, it wasn't true back then that the techies were being abandoned. In fact, Windows introduced a slew of new features and controls to put the technically inclined in geek heaven. Plus, we still had the DOS box anytime we wanted to use the command line.

So, when Windows came into the picture, the bottom line was that the user had a choice as to how to approach the OS: as a simpler, less forbidding interface than the command line for getting routine things done; or as a vehicle for getting into the inner workings of the OS and exploring; or any combination in-between. User's choice.

On the other hand, by removing a number of controls and capabilities Windows 8 actually does decrease the scope of this choice, channeling all users into a dumbed-down experience regardless of the level of our technical expertise or our interest in exploring and learning.
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post #268 of 316 Old 05-19-2012, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by JorgeA View Post

On the other hand, by removing a number of controls and capabilities Windows 8 actually does decrease the scope of this choice, channeling all users into a dumbed-down experience regardless of the level of our technical expertise or our interest in exploring and learning.

I'd wager that 99.9% of people won't even notice any of those things.

I consider myself a power user and only 3 of those are things that bother me in the least... the lack of Advanced Appearance settings, the tablet input panel (TIP) being a step backwards for pen-based usage, and the new Startup tab no longer showing the location where the program is starting up from. So that's 3 out of 46.

And as far as I'm concerned, some of those things listed are improvements:
I actually prefer the ribbon interface, I don't want applications changing my file handlers, etc. etc. I mean, one of the guy's complaints are that the annoying Windows Logon/Logoff sounds aren't there... really?

And let's keep in mind that nobody has seen the Release Preview yet.

That being said, I'm still angry about the poor treatment Media Center is getting. But for all PCs that are not my HTPC, Windows 8 seems to be a really good improvement, once you get used to the huge changes.

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post #269 of 316 Old 05-19-2012, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by jhoff80 View Post

That being said, I'm still angry about the poor treatment Media Center is getting. But for all PCs that are not my HTPC, But for all PCs that are not my HTPC, Windows 8 seems to be a really good improvement, once you get used to the huge changes.

So you think Metro is an improvement on non-touch devices with its:

1. Full screen, modal, scrolling start page that you have to go constantly back and forth like you're using a phone or tablet.

2. Full screen modal apps that suppress the taskbar, taking away its window selector buttons, pinned programs, jump lists, progress indicators, pinned folders, notification area, etc.

3. Reliance on poorly discoverable, difficult to hit, 1-pixel hotspots, AKA "The Four Corners".

Metro and its apps remind me of my Atari ST running Hotwire as the program launcher in 1988 or so. It could have been the shell for Windows 1.0, which could only do two windows side-by-side. It also reminds me of DOS-style shells, including some disk diagnostic and imaging programs available today, where you have a central menu page that launches you into various modal features.

Sorry, I don't see any improvements here. I see only a giant step backwards, a desperate reaction to losing the phone and tablet markets. The really stupid thing is that even if I had touch on my PC, I wouldn't use it because it's so awkward when the monitor is in front of me. I doubt I would use it often enough to make it worth anything on a laptop either. "If we build it, they will come" only works when what you build makes sense, and Metro doesn't make sense for these form factors.

For end users, Metro seems to be the only new big thing in Windows 8. I don't think many people are going to upgrade to get something that only hurts them. Windows 7 was a lot better upgrade coming from Vista and XP, and from 7 to 8, I don't see any "It fixes this bug" or "It'll be more stable" or "It'll have better device support" motivations to upgrade. And any Media Center user that upgrades from Windows 7 to 8 and pays for the right to continue using Media Center might as well tattoo "I'm a Microsoft Fanboy" (to put it politely) on his forehead and join "Zune Guy" in the Consumer Hall of Shame.
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post #270 of 316 Old 05-19-2012, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by tima94930 View Post

So you think Metro is an improvement on non-touch devices with its:

1. Full screen, modal, scrolling start page that you have to go constantly back and forth like you're using a phone or tablet.

Actually, yes. At worst, it's no worse than the start menu. You still have all the features that you're used to with pressing the start key and searching from the keyboard, plus with Metro apps, you now get notifications in one central spot that is more convenient than the system tray, which has been getting ridiculous over the years. Yes, it pops up over what you're doing when you press the start button. That's different, but doesn't necessarily make it bad.

Quote:


2. Full screen modal apps that suppress the taskbar, taking away its window selector buttons, pinned programs, jump lists, progress indicators, pinned folders, notification area, etc.

This one is difficult to judge, since there's only 100 or so Metro apps at the moment. But if you're running only desktop apps like you apparently plan to be, then none of the apps will have this issue anyway.

Quote:


3. Reliance on poorly discoverable, difficult to hit, 1-pixel hotspots, AKA "The Four Corners".

They've addressed this in detail in a recent post, and it's not going to be an issue starting with the Release Preview.

Quote:


Sorry, I don't see any improvements here. I see only a giant step backwards, a desperate reaction to losing the phone and tablet markets. The really stupid thing is that even if I had touch on my PC, I wouldn't use it because it's so awkward when the monitor is in front of me. I doubt I would use it often enough to make it worth anything on a laptop either. "If we build it, they will come" only works when what you build makes sense, and Metro doesn't make sense for these form factors.

For end users, Metro seems to be the only new big thing in Windows 8. I don't think many people are going to upgrade to get something that only hurts them. Windows 7 was a lot better upgrade coming from Vista and XP, and from 7 to 8, I don't see any "It fixes this bug" or "It'll be more stable" or "It'll have better device support" motivations to upgrade.

This is just ridiculous, in my mind. Have you actually used Windows 8? There's a ton of huge improvements on the desktop side even if you completely ignore Metro. One of the things that I thought was just a tiny little change that has ended up being really useful and hard to go back to Windows 7 on is the new file transfer progress setup, for example.

And the idea isn't necessarily a laptop with touch. Something like the Transformer Prime or the Samsung Series 7 Slate is perfect for this paradigm: completely portable with a touch tablet when you need that, and a dock with keyboard and touchpad or keyboard and mouse for when you need to get more serious work done, without having to have an extra device to do so with.

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