*Official* Ivy Bridge for HTPCs Thread - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 261 Old 04-26-2012, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

Oh Hai,

I see what you did there.


<------------------In

Second guessing entering this thread.

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post #32 of 261 Old 04-26-2012, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Veeper View Post

I remember this. S3 was going to charge back onto the scene and become a titan that would once again offer competitive products vs. ATi, Nvidia, and 3Dfx.

They were not a random company and I feel that this "over hyped, over promised, over performed" before launch scenario is completely appropriate for not only this situation but myriads of product releases where the sales team runs wild publishing numbers from the lab that have no chance of being reproduced in the real world.

Great example Venomous.

It's good to know someone understands where I'm coming from, thanks veeper.
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post #33 of 261 Old 04-26-2012, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by babgvant View Post

How so? Unless I'm missing something the end-user experience w/ previous generations of Intel GPUs has been very similar to what was documented in reviews WRT the +/- of each platform. Do you have a specific e.g. in mind where this was not true at a macro level?

Doesn't the current level of intel graphics already prove this? I'm not sure what other examples you need. It took moving icebergs for intel to address hd3000 shortcomings in sandy bridge. They have a history, that's the point im trying to make here. Many of us do more then spin a disc on our htpc or load a video file. If you want more examples, would you like to look at the Mac platform as more proof? I also noticed that in this hd4000 hype, no one touched on linux drivers... And more importantly.. Big screen gaming... The biggest screen in the house is being ignored, c'mon.

I guess from a minimalist stand point, a hd4000 may get the job done for your avg guy. However, average guy and htpc is not common together in one sentence.

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I'm not convinced that the behavior of some random company over a decade ago where some random product was over-hyped/under-delivered is in anyway material to the subject at hand.

Of course not... Intel has no past of overhyping any of their release hardware or sending out special spun review samples in the hands of reviewers. I'm curious, how long you have been in this hobby?
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post #34 of 261 Old 04-26-2012, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Venomous View Post

Doesn't the current level of intel graphics already prove this? I'm not sure what other examples you need. Or would you like to look at the Mac platform as more proof?

Of course not... Intel has no past of overhyping any of their release hardware or sending out special spun review samples in the hands of reviewers. I'm curious, how long you have been in this hobby?

Yeah sure. Just like this example, right? http://www.anandtech.com/show/5508/i...y-to-sandforce While OCZ and others were rushing SF2281 based SSDs out the door to grab market share because they were fast, Intel took a full year of writing and validating new firmware and thus got a product to market that isn't full of bugs. Yep, good old Intel always pushes junk out the door. Right.

Please give us an actual example of Intel "sending out special spun review samples in the hands of reviewers."
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post #35 of 261 Old 04-26-2012, 02:49 PM
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Some people are just contrary for the point of being contrary.

They tend to go against the norm, hate the big dog, and root for the underdog.


No amount of good in a product is acceptable- because expectations will always be increased so they can complain.

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post #36 of 261 Old 04-26-2012, 03:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Venomous View Post

Doesn't the current level of intel graphics already prove this? I'm not sure what other examples you need. It took moving icebergs for intel to address hd3000 shortcomings in sandy bridge.

The issues with SNB graphics were well documented in reviews by everyone (including AnandTech, as in the CoreHT 252B review that I linked in an earlier message).

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They have a history, that's the point im trying to make here.

What is the history you are trying to refer to here? Intel has never been good with HTPC, but multiple people have now been able to use IVB for HTPC workloads effectively (AnandTech and MissingRemote are not the only one). If you are saying that Intel ships different hardware / software to reviewers compared to the actual market, I would really like proof of that. Intel is not stupid enough to do that, definitely!

By the way, Hendrik Leppkes (the author of LAV Filters) also has an IVB CPU and he can corroborate both AT and MR's findings at a macro level. My understanding is that he got the CPU after the NDA lift date, and it is not a 'review sample'.

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Many of us do more then spin a disc on our htpc or load a video file.

People have different interpretations for HTPCs. For many, the first introduction to a HTPC is just spinning a disc or loading a video file (in fact, I bet a large number of people use this mode in their PCs, but just don't call them HTPCs). Then, we have TV tuners and then, DVR capabilities and so on. So, you need to evaluate a platform based on its support for everything. (And, I dare say, most of that stuff is going to rely on CPU power, which is something Intel is good with, anyway).

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If you want more examples, would you like to look at the Mac platform as more proof?

Isn't that Apple's problem?

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I also noticed that in this hd4000 hype, no one touched on linux drivers...

Phoronix does a very good job with reviewing Linux support. I am not sure whether they have any IVB coverage up, but, note that companies target their biggest market first. Undoubtedly, Windows has the largest HTPC marketshare, and it is only understandable if Linux drivers are not ready at launch. I like Linux too, and actually spend most of my work hours on a Linux machine, but, for HTPC duties, I would always recommend something based on Windows.

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And more importantly.. Big screen gaming... The biggest screen in the house is being ignored, c'mon.

AnandTech has plenty of gaming benchmarks in the piece linked in the first post. It is better than a GT 520 / AMD 5450. It has also been noted that it doesn't come upto Llano's standards for gaming. But, funny enough, those GPU resources deliver better post processing for videos in IVB compared to Llano.

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I guess from a minimalist stand point, a hd4000 may get the job done for your avg guy.

HD4000 gets the job done in a reliable manner for video playback and post processing. What else do you want a HTPC focused review to address?

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Of course not... Intel has no past of overhyping any of their release hardware or sending out special spun review samples in the hands of reviewers. I'm curious, how long you have been in this hobby?

Please link me to info about special spun review samples from Intel. I am genuinely curious.

Ganesh T S
Sr. Editor, AnandTech Inc.
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post #37 of 261 Old 04-26-2012, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Venomous View Post

Doesn't the current level of intel graphics already prove this?

I'm not sure I follow. AFAIK there isn't a disconnect b/w what reviewers found re. SNB what end-users have experienced at the macro level.

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Originally Posted by Venomous View Post

I'm not sure what other examples you need.

Something specific would be great.

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Originally Posted by Venomous View Post

If you want more examples, would you like to look at the Mac platform as more proof? I also noticed that in this hd4000 hype, no one touched on linux drivers...

First, you can't legally run OSX on anything that isn't from Apple, and as a DIY HTPC enthusiast that is a blocking issue.

Linux on the desktop is very niche, and AFAIK Intel's drivers for it are lacking. I'd guess the relative lack of interest in the platform and poor support have something to do with no one touching it. If you want to run Linux, Intel HD Graphics probably isn't the right choice; on Windows I am not aware of any disconnects b/w my findings and those of the general community.

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Originally Posted by Venomous View Post

And more importantly.. Big screen gaming... The biggest screen in the house is being ignored, c'mon.

I don't game. If you want to and are serious about it, you'll need a discrete card anyway (and either SNB or IVB). Not sure what your point is here.

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Originally Posted by Venomous View Post


I guess from a minimalist stand point, a hd4000 may get the job done for your avg guy. However, average guy and htpc is not common together in one sentence.

That's pretty long on assertion, with many potentially fallacious assumptions. I would guess that at the very least we disagree on what defines HTPC, minimalist and average.

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Originally Posted by Venomous View Post


Of course not... Intel has no past of overhyping any of their release hardware or sending out special spun review samples in the hands of reviewers.

Is your issue with Intel PR or the IVB reviews?

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Originally Posted by Venomous View Post

I'm curious, how long you have been in this hobby?

Which hobby is that?
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post #38 of 261 Old 04-26-2012, 03:56 PM
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I'm not sure why people keep saying Ivy Bridge graphics are not well-supported on linux. The open-source driver from Intel is actually pretty good with Ivy Bridge. You can read about it on Phoronix:

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pag...vybridge&num=1
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post #39 of 261 Old 04-26-2012, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by jim2100 View Post

I'm not sure why people keep saying Ivy Bridge graphics are not well-supported on linux. The open-source driver from Intel is actually pretty good with Ivy Bridge. You can read about it on Phoronix:

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pag...vybridge&num=1

My comments re. Linux and Intel's driver quality were mostly driven by Charlie Demerjian's writing on the subject.
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post #40 of 261 Old 04-26-2012, 04:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jim2100 View Post

I'm not sure why people keep saying Ivy Bridge graphics are not well-supported on linux. The open-source driver from Intel is actually pretty good with Ivy Bridge. You can read about it on Phoronix:

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pag...vybridge&num=1

Well, that is an eye-opener for me Definitely looks good.. and nice to see VA-API works well. But, looks like ClearVideo (which, I believe, is what delivers the deinterlacing / chroma upsampling / other VPP features) isn't working yet with Linux.. But, I guess we should all be happy that at least VA-API works (it would be nice if Phoronix shows some Linux video playback testing results in their reviews).. Shouldn't the number of users playing videos on Linux be more than the number of gamers running Linux?

Ganesh T S
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post #41 of 261 Old 04-26-2012, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by babgvant View Post

My comments re. Linux and Intel's driver quality were mostly driven by Charlie Demerjian's writing on the subject.

And the lack of a Linux counterpart to the MediaSDK.
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post #42 of 261 Old 04-26-2012, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by babgvant View Post

ARK lists availability as 4/29/12, but I'm not aware of anything official.

Something official.
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post #43 of 261 Old 04-26-2012, 06:14 PM
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Made me laugh.

You can't say trinity won't wipe out ivy bridge for gaming.
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post #44 of 261 Old 04-26-2012, 06:56 PM
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You can't say trinity won't wipe out ivy bridge for gaming.

You can't say "sixth sick sheik's sixth sheep's sick"
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post #45 of 261 Old 04-26-2012, 07:36 PM
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When will the i3's be released and will these be appreciably better than the current i3's in terms of video performance (looks like they will have HD2500 instead of HD2000 graphics but I don't know if that means anything)?
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post #46 of 261 Old 04-26-2012, 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by jeffkro View Post

You can't say trinity won't wipe out ivy bridge for gaming.

Who cares?

HTPC forum.
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post #47 of 261 Old 04-26-2012, 11:00 PM
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Originally Posted by jeffkro View Post

You can't say trinity won't wipe out ivy bridge for gaming.

If you want to talk gaming -

IVB + discrete card will wipe out Trinity + Discrete Card, no questions asked.

Seriously, which half-serious gamer would be content with an integrated GPU?
Integrated is nice for Office Workloads, Mobile Platforms, and basic HTPC tasks, everything else, i wouldn't consider any IGP of todays generation worthwhile.

Intel is still first and foremost a CPU maker. AMD on the other hand is losing the CPU battle, so they focus on GPU (not to mention that they bought their GPU knowledge, and didn't invent it). Its no wonder that different focus areas cause different products to appear. AMD has already a solid GPU product line, just taking those chips and integrating it into a CPU+GPU package is relatively easy, at least when compared to developing a new GPU altogether as Intel is doing. You cannot compare apples and oranges, really.

If you want Mid-Range CPU with a Mid-Range GPU, go Trinity.
If you want a High-End CPU with a Low-End GPU, go IVB.
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post #48 of 261 Old 04-27-2012, 05:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post


If you want to talk gaming -

IVB + discrete card will wipe out Trinity + Discrete Card, no questions asked.

Seriously, which half-serious gamer would be content with an integrated GPU?
Integrated is nice for Office Workloads, Mobile Platforms, and basic HTPC tasks, everything else, i wouldn't consider any IGP of todays generation worthwhile.

Intel is still first and foremost a CPU maker. AMD on the other hand is losing the CPU battle, so they focus on GPU (not to mention that they bought their GPU knowledge, and didn't invent it). Its no wonder that different focus areas cause different products to appear. AMD has already a solid GPU product line, just taking those chips and integrating it into a CPU+GPU package is relatively easy, at least when compared to developing a new GPU altogether as Intel is doing. You cannot compare apples and oranges, really.

If you want Mid-Range CPU with a Mid-Range GPU, go Trinity.
If you want a High-End CPU with a Low-End GPU, go IVB.

No I said a laptop with only integrated. My desktop is SB with a decent graphics card.
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post #49 of 261 Old 04-27-2012, 07:29 AM
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Originally Posted by crbaldwin View Post

When will the i3's be released and will these be appreciably better than the current i3's in terms of video performance (looks like they will have HD2500 instead of HD2000 graphics but I don't know if that means anything)?

They are merely bumped up spec-wise. No real improvements for general HTPC use except in QuickSync and 4K video processing capabilities as well as some 3D stuff that you might not ever use.
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post #50 of 261 Old 04-27-2012, 07:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jakmal View Post

AnandTech has plenty of gaming benchmarks in the piece linked in the first post. It is better than a GT 520 / AMD 5450. It has also been noted that it doesn't come upto Llano's standards for gaming. But, funny enough, those GPU resources deliver better post processing for videos in IVB compared to Llano.

One of the issues I saw with HD2000 was what I interpret as poor post-processing, specifically de-interlacing, of 1080i live TV content. From our discussions here, it seems not everyone sees these issues, but it was bad enough I dropped in a discrete GPU (HD5670) to fix it -- which it did. When your very non-tech savvy neighbors are over for football and they keep saying. "why does it look so weird? What's with the lines and jumpiness?" you know it's not you just being picky .

Is it safe to say HD4000 addresses the lack of post-processing with the SNB CPU? Are there any new features in the driver from better de-interlacing compared to the de-interlacing support in AMD's driver?

 

 

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post #51 of 261 Old 04-27-2012, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by crbaldwin View Post

When will the i3's be released and will these be appreciably better than the current i3's in terms of video performance (looks like they will have HD2500 instead of HD2000 graphics but I don't know if that means anything)?

There is an i3-3225 3.3ghz cpu with HD4000 in the lineup. Not sure if it's part of the June release or 3rd quarter.
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post #52 of 261 Old 04-27-2012, 07:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crbaldwin View Post

When will the i3's be released and will these be appreciably better than the current i3's in terms of video performance (looks like they will have HD2500 instead of HD2000 graphics but I don't know if that means anything)?

Rumor has it that the i3-3225 will have HD4000 graphics. But the Ivy i3's are not due out until the second half of 2012, perhaps not even until Fall (according to rumor, no official word from Intel).
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post #53 of 261 Old 04-27-2012, 07:59 AM
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Well, that is an eye-opener for me Definitely looks good.. and nice to see VA-API works well. But, looks like ClearVideo (which, I believe, is what delivers the deinterlacing / chroma upsampling / other VPP features) isn't working yet with Linux.. But, I guess we should all be happy that at least VA-API works (it would be nice if Phoronix shows some Linux video playback testing results in their reviews).. Shouldn't the number of users playing videos on Linux be more than the number of gamers running Linux?

ClearVideo 1.0 actually did have Linux support back in the day (Intel made the source available) but ClearVideo 2.0 (AKA ClearVideo HD) has none, probably due to Blu-Ray as there is some stuff there relating to Blu-Ray playback that can be used to circumvent copy protection and encryption keys, or so the story goes from what has been said. Linux users are just like Windows users in that they do whatever they want within the limits of their hardware but I would say that it is very logical to assume or state that more of them are playing videos than gaming (and certainly the gaming crowd is doing both) given that most Linux users are using outdated or low-end hardware compared to the average Windows power user.
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post #54 of 261 Old 04-27-2012, 03:47 PM
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Who cares?

HTPC forum.

I agree again. If you are worried about gaming your in the wrong place. As I stated before I used Assassin's advice and my unit does everthing I could want.
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post #55 of 261 Old 04-27-2012, 03:50 PM
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post #56 of 261 Old 04-27-2012, 04:28 PM
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One of the big problems I've had with Intel IGP is incompatibility with color management on recent versions of windows.

Getting this to work requires hacks related to igfxpers.exe.

Does anyone know if this issue has been fixed in ivy bridge?
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post #57 of 261 Old 04-27-2012, 06:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

There are a few i3 Ivys that are going to have the HD4000.

Only one deskop i3 is supposed to have HD4000 -- the 3225. I think it will be a good choice for an HTPC when it finally comes out. In the meantime, the i5-3570K is the cheapest Ivy with HD4000.
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post #58 of 261 Old 04-27-2012, 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by jim2100 View Post

Only one deskop i3 is supposed to have HD4000 -- the 3225. I think it will be a good choice for an HTPC when it finally comes out. In the meantime, the i5-3570K is the cheapest Ivy with HD4000.

Right. That's what we have been saying.

Technically you could use a mobile i3 as well.
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post #59 of 261 Old 04-27-2012, 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by jim2100 View Post

Only one deskop i3 is supposed to have HD4000 -- the 3225. I think it will be a good choice for an HTPC when it finally comes out. In the meantime, the i5-3570K is the cheapest Ivy with HD4000.

Am I missing something here thinking you need 4000 graphics for HTPC?

Any reason normal cheap 2000 level graphics is not good enough ?

I just don't see the HD2000 as bad so I guess I wonder why anyone would need the 4000 ??

For the money couldn't you get an Sandy with a video card later if you decided you wanted that? Seems like Sandy with Video > IVY only.

Same money.

I just don't see IVY as being all that good or needed for HTPC.

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post #60 of 261 Old 04-27-2012, 06:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

Am I missing something here thinking you need 4000 graphics for HTPC?

Any reason normal cheap 2000 level graphics is not good enough ?

I just don't see the HD2000 as bad so I guess I wonder why anyone would need the 4000 ??

For the money couldn't you get an Sandy with a video card later if you decided you wanted that? Seems like Sandy with Video > IVY only.

Same money.

I just don't see IVY as being all that good or needed for HTPC.

Everybody is looking for the "next great thing" with no real reason behind it.

So the HD4000 is the "next great thing". Absolutely no idea if that will translate into any noticeable difference.

Probably not. Maybe for Madvr which on my current system serves absolutely no purpose.
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