SSD vs HDD for OS (poll included) - Page 4 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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View Poll Results: What is your experience with an SSD drive?
I have used both SSD and a HDD; I will never go back to a HDD again. 0 0%
I have used an SSD but don't think it's worth it, I would go back to a HDD happily. 0 0%
I have never used an SSD, only a normal hard drive for an OS install. 0 0%
Voters: 0. You may not vote on this poll

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post #91 of 126 Old 05-02-2012, 11:39 AM
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I once spent $549 for a 500MB hard drive. I want an apology from the 1990s.

 

 

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post #92 of 126 Old 05-02-2012, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StardogChampion View Post

I once spent $549 for a 500MB hard drive. I want an apology from the 1990s.

For my first hard drive I spent $750 for a 20MB Microscience. Big, heavy, cast aluminum case, 5 1/4 inch format, very noisy, and really slow. But never had a bad sector. If you can demand an apology from the 1990s, I want the 1980s to get down on its knees and kiss my feet.
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post #93 of 126 Old 05-02-2012, 12:27 PM
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I think the premise here is the same with regards to HTPCs as other hardware capabilities, like processor speed, memory, and graphics card. If you don't need a high-performance HTPC, you can do without an SSD, too. But an HDD makes more sense for the HTPC for other reasons, too:

- The machine is rarely restarted. Virtually no impact on the user.
- The apps are pretty small overall, so they are quick to load. Very small impact on the user.
- Ripping DVDs and blu-rays are limited by physical media speed, not HDD speed. Virtually no impact on the user.
- Processing video uses sequential reads/writes, which HDDs handle fine. And, they can be automated to run when the user isn't making use of the machine. Virtually no impact on the user.
- Media is the most important part of the HTPC, and that's all on the HDD/LAN storage/Internet anyway. Virtually no impact on the user.

Now, this is the most generic of usage scenarios for the HTPC. Some will fully shut down their HTPCs. Some will play games or run "real apps" on their HTPCs. Some will set up SSD storage. Some will process video in real-time and wait for it to finish. There are a lot of scenarios you can imagine where an SSD would immediately impact a user.

But you can also imagine the scenario where it doesn't. So I think the HDD-only case is pretty valid.

Now, that being said, I'm installing an SSD in my HTPC as soon as I get around to replacing my 80GB X25-M in my main machine with a 240GB Agility 3!
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post #94 of 126 Old 05-02-2012, 02:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StardogChampion View Post

I once spent $549 for a 500MB hard drive. I want an apology from the 1990s.

I spent 250$ on a 74gb and $275 for 150 GB in the 2000's

WD raptors first generation.

And they were way slower than SSD with way more noise too.

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post #95 of 126 Old 05-02-2012, 02:07 PM
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Sorry kids, no Disney World, Daddy spent it on tech in the 1990s...

 

 

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post #96 of 126 Old 05-02-2012, 03:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars99 View Post

Interestingly enough, gaming load performance has been tested and depending on the I/O nature of the game mechanism, an SSD did not always show an appreciable difference in speed.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/2614/14
Of course, a simple google search will show several games will highly benefit and others, not at all.

Since this is an HTPC forum, I won't get into the specifics of why or how the difference occurs, but for a gaming application, a SSD is not always going to provide increased performance or value.
I recommend anyone interested to research their particular game(s) of preference before making a purchasing decision.

Your always a negative nelly.

I can tell you with absolute certainty that every game I ever tried on SSD booted and loaded faster- less wait between levels loading- and generally a quicker and more pleasing experience. The difference was not even close and the performance increase can not be denied. This is across at least 10 different games I have played. It's generally universal considering the SSD is clearly faster and can read faster than a HDD. Any circumstance where this is not the case would be unique to a specific game design (flaw) and probably an older game requiring limited loading. Modern titles are actually being designed to take advantage of SSD.

I think for gamers SSD is even more important than for a HTPC.

While graphics performance won't improve- certainly game play and load times will. Lack of waiting alone makes it worth it.

Ask any serious gamer or in any gamer forum and they will scream the benefits of SSD for you.

Since gaming machines are not entry level budget machines I see absolutley no reason at all not to ever include an SSD in the build- or uprade.

Pretending that SSD won't provide benefit over HDD for gamers is total rubbish.

Also,

You linked an article from 2008. It's a bit outdated and none of that applies on a modern title or game machine.

Last,

The best SSD they used was a slow as dirt Intel from 4 years ago. It wouldn't stand a chance against a budget Sandforce/marvel based SSD Drive from today.

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post #97 of 126 Old 05-02-2012, 03:30 PM
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just curious, and going from it from the other side so to speak, but in what ways is a HDD better than a SDD for a boot drive?
ie we keep hearing about how SSD's are only good for fast booting... so what exactly are HDD's good at?
I just looked up two cheap drives on newegg... no sales, no 'special' deals... just everyday drives at everyday prices...
HITACHI HDS721050CLA362 (0F10381) 500GB 7200 RPM 16MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drive -Bare Drive $80
SanDisk Ultra SDSSDH-120G-G25 2.5" 120GB SATA II Internal Solid State Drive (SSD) $100
so, the spiny HDD is exactly one yuppie food stamp cheaper... big whoop... but I guess spiny HDD wins this round... if $20 is all that big a deal to you?

idle power: HDD 3.6W, SSD .43W active, cant find idle... lets just say SSD wins here too...

speed,all SSD, no contest...

so how exactly is HDD better?

I am so lost here...

NOTE: As one wise professional something once stated, I am ignorant & childish, with a mindset comparable to 9/11 troofers and wackjob conspiracy theorists. so don't take anything I say as advice...
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post #98 of 126 Old 05-02-2012, 03:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Somewhatlost View Post

just curious, and going from it from the other side so to speak, but in what ways is a HDD better than a SDD for a boot drive?
ie we keep hearing about how SSD's are only good for fast booting... so what exactly are HDD's good at?
I just looked up two cheap drives on newegg... no sales, no 'special' deals... just everyday drives at everyday prices...
HITACHI HDS721050CLA362 (0F10381) 500GB 7200 RPM 16MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drive -Bare Drive $80
SanDisk Ultra SDSSDH-120G-G25 2.5" 120GB SATA II Internal Solid State Drive (SSD) $100
so, the spiny HDD is exactly one yuppie food stamp cheaper... big whoop... but I guess spiny HDD wins this round... if $20 is all that big a deal to you?

idle power: HDD 3.6W, SSD .43W active, cant find idle... lets just say SSD wins here too...

speed,all SSD, no contest...

so how exactly is HDD better?

I am so lost here...

I think as a boot drive the SSD is the clear winner. I believe we proved this point already too.

It's much faster.
It's much quieter.
It's much more power efficient.

And,

At $60 for a 60GB it's probably cheaper. Even 320GB HDD's sell for that and offer little storage.

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post #99 of 126 Old 05-02-2012, 04:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post


I think as a boot drive the SSD is the clear winner. I believe we proved this point already too.

It's much faster.
It's much quieter.
It's much more power efficient.

And,

At $60 for a 60GB it's probably cheaper. Even 320GB HDD's sell for that and offer little storage.

Its much more reliable
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post #100 of 126 Old 05-02-2012, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by jeffkro View Post

Its much more reliable

yes, I agree, SSD also appear to be much more reliable than HDD's...
so what good are HDD's? other then for mass storage at the moment?

NOTE: As one wise professional something once stated, I am ignorant & childish, with a mindset comparable to 9/11 troofers and wackjob conspiracy theorists. so don't take anything I say as advice...
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post #101 of 126 Old 05-02-2012, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

Your always a negative nelly.

I can tell you with absolute certainty that every game I ever tried on SSD booted and loaded faster- less wait between levels loading- and generally a quicker and more pleasing experience. The difference was not even close and the performance increase can not be denied. This is across at least 10 different games I have played. It's generally universal considering the SSD is clearly faster and can read faster than a HDD. Any circumstance where this is not the case would be unique to a specific game design (flaw) and probably an older game requiring limited loading. Modern titles are actually being designed to take advantage of SSD.

I think for gamers SSD is even more important than for a HTPC.

While graphics performance won't improve- certainly game play and load times will. Lack of waiting alone makes it worth it.

Ask any serious gamer or in any gamer forum and they will scream the benefits of SSD for you.

Since gaming machines are not entry level budget machines I see absolutley no reason at all not to ever include an SSD in the build- or uprade.

Pretending that SSD won't provide benefit over HDD for gamers is total rubbish.

Also,

You linked an article from 2008. It's a bit outdated and none of that applies on a modern title or game machine.

Last,

The best SSD they used was a slow as dirt Intel from 4 years ago. It wouldn't stand a chance against a budget Sandforce/marvel based SSD Drive from today.

I'm really not going to argue with you. There is ample evidence to show which games do and do not benefit from a SSD.

If you spent a little more time researching and a little less time regurgitating the same unsubstantiated point incessantly, you would find most of what you profess as gospel to be anything but.

It is exceptionally irritating when someone who has demonstrably little computer knowledge express with certitude such factually incorrect information.

I'll leave you with this, from Nov 2011.
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/...-ssd,3062.html
Read and attempt to digest the entire article.
Pay particular attention to the very last table, titled "Solid State Won't Improve All Gameplay"
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post #102 of 126 Old 05-02-2012, 05:14 PM
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I don't game so don't personally know the answer, but after reading the Tom's article you linked I don't know how that article proves your point other than to say the benefit will be different for different games. But it concludes:

"While the performance gains aren't quantitatively impressive, SSDs remain a good way to improve system responsiveness. They're not as sexy as a new six-core CPU or a Radeon HD 7000-series graphics card. They're certainly not cheap, either. However, the difference is very much tangible in everyday use."
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post #103 of 126 Old 05-02-2012, 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Zon2020 View Post

I don't game so don't personally know the answer, but after reading the Tom's article you linked I don't know how that article proves your point other than to say the benefit will be different for different games. But it concludes:

"While the performance gains aren't quantitatively impressive, SSDs remain a good way to improve system responsiveness. They're not as sexy as a new six-core CPU or a Radeon HD 7000-series graphics card. They're certainly not cheap, either. However, the difference is very much tangible in everyday use."

My point is and remains, an SSD can provide a sometimes significant and sometimes minor or non-appreciable increase in performance for some users. To claim they will provide massive, game changing speed increases to every game or htpc application is simply an untrue statement, backed by empirical data.
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post #104 of 126 Old 05-02-2012, 07:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Article or not- I have two gaming machines both on SSD. I have gamed for years without SSD. I have gamed on similar machines with and without SSD.

There is no doubt in my mind that "in general" across most games- SSD will provide you a better user experience. Specifically- faster loading of the game. Faster loading of levels. Smoother and more responsive game play. Faster/better exits and restarts.

While there might exist a game that might not show very tangible benefits with an SSD- those games are few and far in between.

There is many more games (I.E Most games) that will show real benefit with SSD. The games that do not would obviously not be a game that is very dependent on loading information quickly. SSD won't improve your graphics like a video card- but it certainly will improve your game play and reduce your wait times substantially.

I can't even understand how you can be so adamant that this is not the case.

I never said it would improve all games in all situations. I said most games, and in general across the variety. It seems like the amount of games that would benefit from SSD would far out number the amount of games that don't.

Knowing that SSD's are capable of much higher performance than HDD it's almost common sense that games would load quicker and run better off SSD than HDD. It's almost idiotic to think otherwise.

I always get a laugh from you lars99. Your so quick to go against anything I say that it does not even matter if it defies common sense, logic, or well known information.

I am a long time gamer- and built my PC's for game performance for a long time. I know a lot more about this area than HTPC for sure.

It's without question that in general SSD based gaming systems deliver better performance and user experience across most games. You might find an exception to this with a specific title or for a specific reason. But- to suggest a HDD based gaming system is equal or better than SSD based gaming system- or that SSD is not superior is borderline insane.

I am not sure I should even have to go any further with this topic. It's seems like I would be beating a dead horse. In fact this horse has been dead for years.

The article you linked used MLC Nand in the SSD too, which can be known to cause hiccups.

I would conclude with the agreement that if you wanted to build a gaming system or game without an SSD- that is each individual's personal choice; But- your suggestion that it's not needed, won't improve performance, won't decrease load times, won't provide a better user experience across "most" games, and SSD is not superior to HDD is not only wrong- it's crazy.
Just because you might not like me and thus have a tendency to go against anything I say does not make the well known superiority of SSD over HDD any less significant- It just makes you look silly.

Your reaching hard on this one. It's a bit out of reach I think.

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post #105 of 126 Old 05-02-2012, 07:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars99 View Post

My point is and remains, an SSD can provide a sometimes significant and sometimes minor or non-appreciable increase in performance for some users. To claim they will provide massive, game changing speed increases to every game or htpc application is simply an untrue statement, backed by empirical data.

The problem with that is that the article that you chose to cite says SSDs are "a good way to improve system responsiveness" and that "the difference is very much tangible in everyday use." It doesn't say anything about the increase in performance being "minor or non-appreciable." That statement is something you simply made up and is what is lacking any supporting data, empirical or otherwise.
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post #106 of 126 Old 05-02-2012, 08:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zon2020 View Post

The problem with that is that the article that you chose to cite says SSDs are "a good way to improve system responsiveness" and that "the difference is very much tangible in everyday use." It doesn't say anything about the increase in performance being "minor or non-appreciable." That statement is something you simply made up and is what is lacking any supporting data, empirical or otherwise.

+1
Agree.

While the title of the page he cites might sound like it supports his claims- the body of the text and evidence presented tells a totally different story.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars99 View Post

I'll leave you with this, from Nov 2011.
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/...-ssd,3062.html
Read and attempt to digest the entire article.
Pay particular attention to the very last table, titled "Solid State Won't Improve All Gameplay"

I lol-ed hard at the "Read and attempt to digest the entire article.

Here is what I saw on that page you linked:

Quote:


There's a lot going on when you play a game. So, generalizing about the way storage technology affects gaming ignores many of the nuances that affect how long it takes to fire up a game, load a level, or even just play on through.

Understandably, then, simply replacing a hard drive with an SSD won't address all of your performance-oriented issues. However, after expanding our testing to three more games, we have to amend our previous findings. In particular, Battlefield 3 and Rift turn out to be substantially different from some of the other games as they're being enjoyed. Mainly, reads are emphasized, just as they are while launching games and loading levels.

The storage profile of each game turns out to be a pretty good barometer of how it'll respond to an SSD upgrade, more easily explaining why some titles realize benefits you can really feel, while others don't. Practically, you don't spend a ton of time waiting for games or levels to load, which is why smooth gameplay should be top priority. We've seen the consequences of choppy gameplay on a system limited to magnetic storage and asked to perform too many I/O-intensive tasks at a time.

(you can watch the video in the link you provided for evidence)

The video above highlights the issue pretty clearly. At 1:07 or so, and then a couple times more, you see the system seize up a bit with an anti-virus scan running in the background, even with a capable CPU and a high-end graphics card. Compare that to the video below, complemented by an SSD. Performance is smooth (even consistent?) throughout.

This is perhaps the most compelling reason to upgrade. The passing of time sees all of our systems slow down. Small programs get installed, storage fills up, and more processes run in the background. You might not even have trouble with an anti-virus scan. It could be an unrequested Windows Update install (Ed.: I hate it when that happens), indexing, a disk degfrag, or Outlook's automatic email check.

While the performance gains aren't quantitatively impressive, SSDs remain a good way to improve system responsiveness. They're not as sexy as a new six-core CPU or a Radeon HD 7000-series graphics card. They're certainly not cheap, either. However, the difference is very much tangible in everyday use.

Did I miss something in the article and link you provided?

It almost seems to prove my point much more than yours.

Perhaps my "attempt to digest the entire article" as you suggested was not effective.

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post #107 of 126 Old 05-02-2012, 08:03 PM
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Well, if there's one thing SSDs has made worse, it's this forum.

 

 

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post #108 of 126 Old 05-02-2012, 08:08 PM
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+ freakin 10 !!!
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post #109 of 126 Old 05-02-2012, 08:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StardogChampion View Post

Well, if there's one thing SSDs has made worse, it's this forum.

Well you can add it to the list of PC vs Mac, Windows vs Linux, ATI vs nVidia vs Intel, Intel vs AMD, "is piracy stealing", etc. Oh, and the ever popular "you just have a pc, not a real HTPC."
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post #110 of 126 Old 05-02-2012, 08:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zon2020 View Post

Well you can add it to the list of PC vs Mac, Windows vs Linux, ATI vs nVidia vs Intel, Intel vs AMD, "is piracy stealing", etc. Oh, and the ever popular "you just have a pc, not a real HTPC."

You forgot,


Mediabrowser vs XBMC- what is best ??

That's always a good one.. lol.

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post #111 of 126 Old 05-03-2012, 08:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StardogChampion View Post

Well, if there's one thing SSDs has made worse, it's this forum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flocko View Post

+ freakin 10 !!!

how so?
it is a forum...
YOU have to purposely click on a thread to view it...
if this tropic is of no interest to you, or you find it upsets your sensibilities in any way, all YOU need to do is not click on this thread....
no one is forcing you to view this discussion... well, at least as far as I am aware...
I just don't get these "oh this is a horrible thread" comments in general... seems if it was really horrible, no one would view it or reply and it would just fade away...

or perhaps I am missing something? is it possible Mfusick is sneaking around and forcing people to open and view this thread... maybe Mfusick is some sort of thread forcing ninja?

NOTE: As one wise professional something once stated, I am ignorant & childish, with a mindset comparable to 9/11 troofers and wackjob conspiracy theorists. so don't take anything I say as advice...
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post #112 of 126 Old 05-03-2012, 10:43 AM - Thread Starter
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I am a Ninja

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post #113 of 126 Old 05-03-2012, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StardogChampion View Post

I once spent $549 for a 500MB hard drive. I want an apology from the 1990s.

The first hard drive I ever saw was in the early 1980s when I went on a tour of a university as a kid. It had a 5MB capacity, and was the size of a large fridge placed on its side.



The drive platters themselves looked like a stack of brown records that got dropped in and out of the drive.



I believe the drive cost somewhere in the vicinity of $10,000 to $20,000.

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post #114 of 126 Old 05-03-2012, 03:54 PM - Thread Starter
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OMG !

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post #115 of 126 Old 05-03-2012, 06:59 PM
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I just installed the new Seagate Momentus 750GB hybrid drive (price has really come down recently) in my single drivebay laptop yesterday. After some training, it feels like an SSD during boot and when I load media center.

I couldn't help this would be a nice drive for a low-end HTPC. It boots and load frequently used apps quickly from its 8GB NAND cache.

If you do something like record two hours of television though, it fortunately doesn't write cache, so optimally IMO under these circumstances it acts as a regular hard drive.
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post #116 of 126 Old 05-03-2012, 07:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by rolodomo View Post

I just installed the new Seagate Momentus 750GB hybrid drive (price has really come down recently) in my single drivebay laptop yesterday. After some training, it feels like an SSD during boot and when I load media center.

I couldn't help this would be a nice drive for a low-end HTPC. It boots and load frequently used apps quickly from its 8GB NAND cache.

If you do something like record two hours of television though, it fortunately doesn't write cache, so optimally IMO under these circumstances it acts as a regular hard drive.

A better solution is a 30GB SSD using the intel technolgy to speed boost a normal HDD.
But then again for $60 you could just get a 60GB and move the OS there.

Only in a laptop where you don't have a second HDD bay would it make sense to integrate them vs SSD +HDD.

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post #117 of 126 Old 05-03-2012, 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

A better solution is a 30GB SSD using the intel technolgy to speed boost a normal HDD.

Are you talking about ssd caching (e.g., Z68)? I said low-end HTPC.

But yeah, leaving aside ssd caching, a cheap 60GB SSD for boot and HD for storage would offer good performance for price and is pretty simple to setup.

Still though, for a really cheap, small, low power HTPC, it would be nice having just one storage device that boots like a SSD but stores video like a HD.
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post #118 of 126 Old 05-03-2012, 07:40 PM
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Received a Mushkin 120G from Newegg late yesterday. Cloned the ancient 160G over using WD Acronis. Booted up and made sure everything was fine.
No Problemo. Powered down as I need the workspace cleaned for company.
Moved it back into it's cubby for now, fired up, and now the 160G spinner is clicking...I've only heard this click once before- just before a spinner froze up.

BTW, this is a REALLY old Compaq XW4400. So old the DVD burner is a PATA, and (I surmise) is the reason why I can't convert everything over to AHCI. After the weekend will be more motivated to work on this old beast. Until then, the SSD rocks.
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post #119 of 126 Old 05-03-2012, 09:10 PM
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I once spent $549 for a 500MB hard drive. I want an apology from the 1990s.

Yeah, I think I spent around $300 for a 60MB in '90 for a 386sx, but it was so much better than 1.2 MB floppies. I wanted a 20 MB in my prior 8086 but couldn't afford it in '88 and had to go for dual floppies. I'm surprised some of these pro spinning-platter folks are not suggesting that we go back to floppies. Or how about paper tape? How many miles of paper to encode a blu-ray? I remember booting an old PDP-8 from paper tape in high school (it was old then).
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post #120 of 126 Old 05-03-2012, 10:03 PM
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Yeah, I think I spent around $300 for a 60MB in '90 for a 386sx, but it was so much better than 1.2 MB floppies. I wanted a 20 MB in my prior 8086 but couldn't afford it in '88 and had to go for dual floppies. I'm surprised some of these pro spinning-platter folks are not suggesting that we go back to floppies. Or how about paper tape? How many miles of paper to encode a blu-ray? I remember booting an old PDP-8 from paper tape in high school (it was old then).

I can almost hear it now as that old Teletype terminal pounds away punching tape for the BluRay of Lawrence of Arabia. Bring a sleeping bag.
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