FlexRAID 2.0 Opinions? Thinking of going with it over UnRAID/SnapRAID - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 252 Old 04-30-2012, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Killroy View Post

I think the last version was 2.0 PR12 or whatever it was right before he went commercial. Used it on 4 boxes with over 100TB protected.



I have never said that it did anything poorly. I just don't believe that this software is priced at the right price point compared to what it does compared to other solutions.

I have extensively used disParity, FlexRAID, and now SnapRAID. Do I think he should charge money for FlexRAID? Absolutely!!! But no way in hell is this application worth $70 (for each machine). What would I pay? I guess that's not an option at this point since his price is set.

But when you have an alternative application that does the same function I need for free you can imagine that it would not be that much.


You said it was not stable enough. I'm asking you what function you feel isn't stable enough?

It's still cheaper then unRaid, which has a huge user base. It's cheaper then most raid controller cards.

It may do what you need cheaper then other application, but you need to draw a distinction. It does much more then SnapRAID.
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post #32 of 252 Old 04-30-2012, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by assassin View Post

When has it ever been $70?

I'm using the non-sale price since I would not pay for it now.
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post #33 of 252 Old 04-30-2012, 03:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars99 View Post

You said it was not stable enough. I'm asking you what function you feel isn't stable enough?

It's still cheaper then unRaid, which has a huge user base. It's cheaper then most raid controller cards.

It may do what you need cheaper then other application, but you need to draw a distinction. It does much more then SnapRAID.

Its still buggy as hell. Six releases in as many weeks is not good.

I will give you a perfect example.... This week I made a huge mistake with some files and had to move over 300GBs of files around. Using SnapRAID I was able to maintain the integrity of the parity even after I moved the files. Moving that many files using FlexRAID would have required a full parity re-creation. On that box it would have taken over 30-hours for a full parity re-creation. SnapRAID was able to maintain the parity and only took about 4-hours to update the changes.
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post #34 of 252 Old 04-30-2012, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Killroy View Post

Its still buggy as hell. Six releases in as many weeks is not good.

I will give you a perfect example.... This week I made a huge mistake with some files and had to move over 300GBs of files around. Using SnapRAID I was able to maintain the integrity of the parity even after I moved the files. Moving that many files using FlexRAID would have required a full parity re-creation. On that box it would have taken over 30-hours for a full parity re-creation. SnapRAID was able to maintain the parity and only took about 4-hours to update the changes.

Again, please tell me a specific bug that you are referring to.

FlexRaid would not have required a full parity recreate.
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post #35 of 252 Old 04-30-2012, 04:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars99 View Post

Again, please tell me a specific bug that you are referring to.

FlexRaid would not have required a full parity recreate.

Oh yes it would have! I know. I've done it. If you moved that many files around you would get the dreaded "Not enough space for parity" error. I documented the error ages ago and it has yet to be fixed... At least up to the last free version I tried and have not seen it addressed in the paid version.

Other bugs... Just read their forum. One bug after another. I had many of those before the paid version and they still exist in the paid version. I no longer participate in their forum since I am not a paid customer.

But for me, the "Not enough space for parity" error was the worse.
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post #36 of 252 Old 04-30-2012, 04:18 PM
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Flexraid is good, its worth the $50 for the full piece of software.
Was using it when it was free, and using it still now. Its not perfect. But for me its the thing that works the best. I came from a hardware raid, and i prefer flexraid! (its only media storage guys, we arent running a server for 100 clients)

I like how you can add different sized disks, you can have them full.
The awesome thing is...if your raid fails. you can access your media on your discs still!! its brilliant. Its definately fast enough for streaming to at least 3 clients (tested myself)

The only thing that bugs me, and its a small thing is. I dont have a "server" its on my PC that is on 24/7, And while its usually left alone. Sometimes i do have to reboot it. The thing is doesnt start the storage pool. and then i have to share it again once its initialized. But i reboot my pc once a fortnight if im lucky so its not much of a big deal.


Your choice will be dependent on your needs and your budget. Obviously a lot of people wont buy a $20 movie, why would they buy $50 raid software. It just sucks they dont seem to have a trial anymore (that ive seen)


Good luck with your choice

+10 FlexRaid
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post #37 of 252 Old 04-30-2012, 04:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Killroy View Post

Oh yes it would have! I know. I've done it. If you moved that many files around you would get the dreaded "Not enough space for parity" error. I documented the error ages ago and it has yet to be fixed... At least up to the last free version I tried and have not seen it addressed in the paid version.

Other bugs... Just read their forum. One bug after another. I had many of those before the paid version and they still exist in the paid version. I no longer participate in their forum since I am not a paid customer.

But for me, the "Not enough space for parity" error was the worse.

Negative on the parity error. It's simply not true.

Just to be clear, you're claiming software you haven't tried since it's release isn't ready for release, yet you can't point to a specific bug or issue that makes the software not ready for release.

Did I miss something?
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post #38 of 252 Old 04-30-2012, 04:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars99 View Post

Negative on the parity error. It's simply not true.

Just to be clear, you're claiming software you haven't tried since it's release isn't ready for release, yet you can't point to a specific bug or issue that makes the software not ready for release.

Did I miss something?

Really?!?! You are telling me that that the dozen or more times I got the "Not enough space for parity" error did not happen? I sure would love to know how you did that.

As far as the other bugs, if other people are reporting the same bugs I did with the PR version with the paid version how is that different.

I currently have over 111TB of protected data and had almost the same when I was using the PR version. FlexRAID saved 3 of my drives so I think I have enough experience to know what works and what does not.

But I think I will leave this for you to discuss further since you so quickly discounted my limited experience.
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post #39 of 252 Old 04-30-2012, 04:56 PM
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To clarify, it's simply not true since the software left beta. I can't speak before then, but the issue you described I've done several times with much larger segments of data and do not see that error.
A quick check of the FlexRaid forums I don't see users reporting the subject you describe.

If you don't like the software, fine. If you don't want to use it, fine. To claim it's bug filled and not ready for prime time without producing a single piece of evidence is poor behavior and a disservice to the program authors.
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post #40 of 252 Old 04-30-2012, 05:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Killroy View Post

I'm using the non-sale price since I would not pay for it now.

Who is to say that it will ever go off the "sale" price? Do you have inside information?

He keeps extending it. I got it for $40. And many others got it for $50.


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post #41 of 252 Old 04-30-2012, 05:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars99 View Post

Negative on the parity error. It's simply not true.

Just to be clear, you're claiming software you haven't tried since it's release isn't ready for release, yet you can't point to a specific bug or issue that makes the software not ready for release.

Did I miss something?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars99 View Post

To clarify, it's simply not true since the software left beta. I can't speak before then, but the issue you described I've done several times with much larger segments of data and do not see that error.
A quick check of the FlexRaid forums I don't see users reporting the subject you describe.

If you don't like the software, fine. If you don't want to use it, fine. To claim it's bug filled and not ready for prime time without producing a single piece of evidence is poor behavior and a disservice to the program authors.

Good posts.

I still think a lot of the loudest critics might be the ones that just don't want to pay for it.


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post #42 of 252 Old 04-30-2012, 05:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gigahertz21 View Post

Thanks to those who have posted so far, gonna have to look into SnapRAID more maybe. My big concern is ease of use, SnapRAID was built as a command line program and then 3rd party programs came out to give it a GUI and drive pooling. How involved is it to setup these 3rd party programs to work right and how well do they work?

FlexRAID is an all in one solution, but of course it's not free like SnapRAID. I need something reliable, I don't want to lose TB's of media because I chose a crappy solution. I guess I'll have to play around with both and decide soon before the May 5th deadline for FlexRAID, where it looks like the price will go from $60 to $100 Is the software really worth $100? Seems like he would get alot more buyers if it was lower. $40 or so seems more reasonable.


It's a piece of cake. Start the gui, enter your schedule (dates and command to run) I have mine set to sync every sunday at 1am. You're done.
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post #43 of 252 Old 04-30-2012, 05:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

I'm using FlexRaid.

No issues at all. No idea what you guys expected the developer to do. Its a fantastic piece of software --- especially for HTPC --- and one I would gladly pay to use.

+1 here

FlexRAID + WHS.

happy to pay for it.

-

"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."
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post #44 of 252 Old 04-30-2012, 05:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars99 View Post

To clarify, it's simply not true since the software left beta. I can't speak before then, but the issue you described I've done several times with much larger segments of data and do not see that error.
A quick check of the FlexRaid forums I don't see users reporting the subject you describe.

If you don't like the software, fine. If you don't want to use it, fine. To claim it's bug filled and not ready for prime time without producing a single piece of evidence is poor behavior and a disservice to the program authors.

Since the error was never fixed before it left beta what makes you think the error was fixed after? It wasn't. The bug is over a year-old....if not longer...

BTW... it's good being a digital hoarder cause I still have the logs for the error.

Code:
[2012-02-21 06:16:39,363] ERROR: [update] error: Invalid state: not enough usable space for parity! Space need: 210903727303
java.lang.RuntimeException: Invalid state: not enough usable space for parity! Space need: 210903727303
    at java.lang.Void.(Unknown Source)
    at java.lang.Void.(Unknown Source)
    at java.lang.Void.(Unknown Source)
    at java.lang.Void.(Unknown Source)
Caused by: java.io.IOException: Invalid state: not enough usable space for parity! Space need: 210903727303
    ... 4 more
I will bet anyone $50 (the price of the license that the error is still there and I can reproduce it in less than 15 minutes. The issue was never addressed and I can guarantee that it is till there.
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post #45 of 252 Old 04-30-2012, 06:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars99 View Post


It's still cheaper then unRaid, which has a huge user base. It's cheaper then most raid controller cards.

Flexraid requires a host operating system, so unless you will be using Linux you need to add the price of what ever version of windows you will be using. When I was looking into these a little over 3 years ago, I decided on unraid based mostly on the o line community and low system requirements, along with only needing a 512MB could have been 128MB USB thumb drive. I am very happy with UnRaid although it does have it's own issues.
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post #46 of 252 Old 04-30-2012, 06:38 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Killroy View Post

Nothing wrong with a paid program but having the end-users provide constant beta testing is just wrong. FlexRAID is not stable enough to be a full-fledge commercial product since it still relies on its end-users to beta test pretty much everything.

This.
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post #47 of 252 Old 04-30-2012, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

This.

Again, where is the instability? I am using it and its nothing but stable for me.


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post #48 of 252 Old 04-30-2012, 06:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

Again, where is the instability? I am using it and its nothing but stable for me.

If you really want to test that, do this:

Move one movie from each of your drives to another one of the drives (at least 200GB) and then run update. I will guarantee that you will get the error I just posted.
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post #49 of 252 Old 04-30-2012, 06:47 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

Again, where is the instability? I am using it and its nothing but stable for me.

Bugs are reports and fixed, new bugs are found and fixed. If there are bugs reported you cannot say it is not buggy...and paying for buggy software is a problem.

Also, who knows when he will vanish for months again, without any trace or mention of him leaving or when he will return. This already happened. Not a problem when the software is free. Even though it was timebombed and he was gone until almost the expiration, it was not a huge deal since it was free.

People are now paying, though, and that changes everything. It would STILL not be as much of a deal if there were not free versions that do everything I used FlexRAID for.

I used FlexRAID for years. Found bugs, reported them, tested, etc. Once again, no problem since it was free. I do not want to be a free R&D center for a paid product, so I chose not to pay for the product.
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post #50 of 252 Old 04-30-2012, 06:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Killroy View Post

If you really want to test that, do this:

Move one movie from each of your drives to another one of the drives (at least 200GB) and then run update. I will guarantee that you will get the error I just posted.

My drives are pooled. Why would I do this or even want to do this routinely?

When I get a chance I will try this though. Are others reporting this? If so where?

I do move other media and files around routinely and haven't had that specific issue. I do get errors if I am actively downloading to the drive. But this is likely because of the nature of the snapshot. Once I finish downloading it updates just fine.

Have you tried this in the post-free era FlexRaid version?


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post #51 of 252 Old 04-30-2012, 06:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

Bugs are reports and fixed, new bugs are found and fixed. If there are bugs reported you cannot say it is not buggy...and paying for buggy software is a problem.

Also, who knows when he will vanish for months again, without any trace or mention of him leaving or when he will return. This already happened. Not a problem when the software is free. Even though it was timebombed and he was gone until almost the expiration, it was not a huge deal since it was free.

People are now paying, though, and that changes everything. It would STILL not be as much of a deal if there were not free versions that do everything I used FlexRAID for.

I used FlexRAID for years. Found bugs, reported them, tested, etc. Once again, no problem since it was free. I do not want to be a free R&D center for a paid product, so I chose not to pay for the product.

I completely get that argument and respect your opinion and stance.


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post #52 of 252 Old 04-30-2012, 06:50 PM
 
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Originally Posted by wraslor View Post

It's a piece of cake. Start the gui, enter your schedule (dates and command to run) I have mine set to sync every sunday at 1am. You're done.

Yep, I have mine setup to sync daily at 1:17am. I like picking unusual start times because any automatic tasks will not have them as their chosen start time.

http://elucidate.codeplex.com/]Elucidate is the GUI for SnapRAID for anyone who wants it. It is one rev behind, but that is not a problem as all it means is you do not get GUI access to the new features.
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post #53 of 252 Old 04-30-2012, 06:53 PM
 
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Originally Posted by assassin View Post

I completely get that argument and respect your opinion and stance.

Yeah, I have no problem with those who pay for it. The guy does good work, all in all, and if people want to buy it, then more power to him and them.

Choices are what makes everything better, and I hope him the best. Maybe even one day I will buy his product, once it gets all smoothed out. Who knows.
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post #54 of 252 Old 04-30-2012, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by assassin View Post

My drives are pooled. Why would I do this or even want to do this routinely?

When I get a chance I will try this though. Are others reporting this? If so where?

I do move other media and files around routinely and haven't had that specific issue. I do get errors if I am actively downloading to the drive. But this is likely because of the nature of the snapshot. Once I finish downloading it updates just fine.

Have you tried this in the post-free era FlexRaid version?

Actually, my example was a method to do it without losing any files in case something went wrong.

But this is the logic behind the error...if there are too many changes in either deletes, moves, and additions before you update then the parity needs to create more data than the parity disk can hold. This would not be an issue if the parity drive was larger than the actual largest drive (I have tested this) but since most of us only use the same hard drive size as our largest data drive then it becomes a problem. I never had an issue when I was using 1TB data drives and a 1.5TB parity drive. The extra room in the parity drive would overcome this problem. But if you have 3TB drives and your parity drive is also 3TB then you will have a problem if you make too many changes (about 200GB or so) before updating.

This is an old bug that has existed in FlexRAID since version 1.0. I thought he fixed it in beta version 2 but it was just pushed further by greater changes before updates. I think version 1 could handle 100GB of changes before the error but version 2 was increased to about 200GB...although I am not sure of the exact number.
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post #55 of 252 Old 04-30-2012, 08:19 PM - Thread Starter
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LOL, I posted the below comment on the FlexRAID order page and it got deleted, I just posted it again though I guess he doesn't want people to take a look at SnapRAID, can't blame him though, it's a competing product that can do what most of his product does and is free.

http://www.flexraid.com/2012/03/16/flexraid-order-page/



Quote:


What benefits does FlexRAID have over SnapRAID? SnapRAID is free and it looks like it can basically do the same thing and has add-ons that give it drive pooling and a GUI (http://snapraid.sourceforge.net/compare.html).

I have no problem paying for software that works great and will keep my TB's of media protected over the years, so I'm just trying to find out what the selling points of Flex are over SnapRAID? It does look like Snap only came out last year so it's fairly immature but from everything I've read, it works solid. I like that it's open source and will always remain free.

I guess the best thing to do is to try both and see what I think.

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post #56 of 252 Old 05-01-2012, 05:00 AM
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http://www.flexraid.com/2012/03/16/flexraid-order-page/

Alrighty .... enough of the price guessing Of coarse this will change .

I can't really comment on physical use of the product as i have no need for it currently .

However , I have done a lot of reading on the subject and if I had the need would be happy to pay to use this , what appears to be an excellent product. I have had the opportunity to see some live shots of the product in action . Must say I was impressed to be sure !!

After spending an entire weekend just reading up on F.R. I found it unusual that the developer made it as far as he did with out charging for it . I wonder if folks get the concept of time =$ and not just one persons time either !! How about equipment costs .... website costs , power to maintain the running equip. etc .. Would you do it for free ? Would you do it for $15 per license. I bet the answer would be a resounding NO .

My .02 cents

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post #57 of 252 Old 05-01-2012, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Killroyâ„¢ View Post

Actually, my example was a method to do it without losing any files in case something went wrong.

But this is the logic behind the error...if there are too many changes in either deletes, moves, and additions before you update then the parity needs to create more data than the parity disk can hold. This would not be an issue if the parity drive was larger than the actual largest drive (I have tested this) but since most of us only use the same hard drive size as our largest data drive then it becomes a problem. I never had an issue when I was using 1TB data drives and a 1.5TB parity drive. The extra room in the parity drive would overcome this problem. But if you have 3TB drives and your parity drive is also 3TB then you will have a problem if you make too many changes (about 200GB or so) before updating.

This is an old bug that has existed in FlexRAID since version 1.0. I thought he fixed it in beta version 2 but it was just pushed further by greater changes before updates. I think version 1 could handle 100GB of changes before the error but version 2 was increased to about 200GB...although I am not sure of the exact number.


1. I am very glad to have stumbled upon this thread only because of the bug report being claimed. I mean, thanks to those backing up the product and to the others... well, sorry that your favorite program is no longer free.
Give it another 3 months and you will fully understand why it was critical for this project to get funded.

2. So Killroy, I have been trying to replicate the bug you are referring to for hours now without any success. I made sure to follow every element you named to lead to the error. Still, no success replicating the issue. For the record, every time a user has reported a parity space issue on the forum it was always traced back to user error (spanning, junctions and hard links, PPU having a smaller usable space than advertised, etc.).
In fact, I even added a new feature to FlexRAID to scan to hardlinks and junctions: http://wiki.flexraid.com/2012/04/21/...snapshot-raid/

However, your particular experience could still be valid, and I would like to see it replicated so I can fix it if not already fixed in the latest release.

I would like to offer you a free license of FlexRAID in exchange to access to a test system were you are able to setup a failing scenario proving your claimed bug.

I have designed FlexRAID to be very smart with data changes such that things like moves only result in metadata update and no parity change. As matter of fact, FlexRAID is the only solution that can recover 100% of the data even after massive data moves across DRUs.

Still, given that you are running some pretty hefty systems, maybe you are encountering something the typical user isn't.

So, would you take my offer? (I will greatly appreciate that)

Thanks.

Flexible RAID:
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post #58 of 252 Old 05-01-2012, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by spectrumbx View Post

1. I am very glad to have stumbled upon this thread only because of the bug report being claimed. I mean, thanks to those backing up the product and to the others... well, sorry that your favorite program is no longer free.
Give it another 3 months and you will fully understand why it was critical for this project to get funded.

2. So Killroy, I have been trying to replicate the bug you are referring to for hours now without any success. I made sure to follow every element you named to lead to the error. Still, no success replicating the issue. For the record, every time a user has reported a parity space issue on the forum it was always traced back to user error (spanning, junctions and hard links, PPU having a smaller usable space than advertised, etc.).
In fact, I even added a new feature to FlexRAID to scan to hardlinks and junctions: http://wiki.flexraid.com/2012/04/21/...snapshot-raid/

However, your particular experience could still be valid, and I would like to see it replicated so I can fix it if not already fixed in the latest release.

I would like to offer you a free license of FlexRAID in exchange to access to a test system were you are able to setup a failing scenario proving your claimed bug.

I have designed FlexRAID to be very smart with data changes such that things like moves only result in metadata update and no parity change. As matter of fact, FlexRAID is the only solution that can recover 100% of the data even after massive data moves across DRUs.

Still, given that you are running some pretty hefty systems, maybe you are encountering something the typical user isn't.

So, would you take my offer? (I will greatly appreciate that)

Thanks.

This could get really interesting...


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post #59 of 252 Old 05-01-2012, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spectrumbx View Post

1. I am very glad to have stumbled upon this thread only because of the bug report being claimed. I mean, thanks to those backing up the product and to the others... well, sorry that your favorite program is no longer free.
Give it another 3 months and you will fully understand why it was critical for this project to get funded.

2. So Killroy, I have been trying to replicate the bug you are referring to for hours now without any success. I made sure to follow every element you named to lead to the error. Still, no success replicating the issue. For the record, every time a user has reported a parity space issue on the forum it was always traced back to user error (spanning, junctions and hard links, PPU having a smaller usable space than advertised, etc.).
In fact, I even added a new feature to FlexRAID to scan to hardlinks and junctions: http://wiki.flexraid.com/2012/04/21/...snapshot-raid/

However, your particular experience could still be valid, and I would like to see it replicated so I can fix it if not already fixed in the latest release.

I would like to offer you a free license of FlexRAID in exchange to access to a test system were you are able to setup a failing scenario proving your claimed bug.

I have designed FlexRAID to be very smart with data changes such that things like moves only result in metadata update and no parity change. As matter of fact, FlexRAID is the only solution that can recover 100% of the data even after massive data moves across DRUs.

Still, given that you are running some pretty hefty systems, maybe you are encountering something the typical user isn't.

So, would you take my offer? (I will greatly appreciate that)

Thanks.

I will accept your offer.

So you know... I don't use any spanning, junctions and/or hard links, (PPU having a smaller usable space) and my PPU is always the same drive as my largest data drive and freshly formatted with absolutely no other app or files on the PPU drive. None whatsoever. I only use JBOD and no pooling.

It is not the first time I have received this error...this is the other one from my third box.

These are the only two logs I have left over from when I removed FlexRAID.

Code:
[2012-02-20 23:38:28,521] ERROR: [update] error: Invalid state: not enough usable space for parity! Space need: 268005783275
java.lang.RuntimeException: Invalid state: not enough usable space for parity! Space need: 268005783275
    at java.lang.Void.(Unknown Source)
    at java.lang.Void.(Unknown Source)
    at java.lang.Void.(Unknown Source)
    at java.lang.Void.(Unknown Source)
Caused by: java.io.IOException: Invalid state: not enough usable space for parity! Space need: 268005783275
I was able to duplicate the error once on purpose just to make sure I was not crazy so I am confident I can do it again.
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post #60 of 252 Old 05-01-2012, 10:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spectrumbx View Post

1. I am very glad to have stumbled upon this thread only because of the bug report being claimed. I mean, thanks to those backing up the product and to the others... well, sorry that your favorite program is no longer free.
Give it another 3 months and you will fully understand why it was critical for this project to get funded.

2. So Killroy, I have been trying to replicate the bug you are referring to for hours now without any success. I made sure to follow every element you named to lead to the error. Still, no success replicating the issue. For the record, every time a user has reported a parity space issue on the forum it was always traced back to user error (spanning, junctions and hard links, PPU having a smaller usable space than advertised, etc.).
In fact, I even added a new feature to FlexRAID to scan to hardlinks and junctions: http://wiki.flexraid.com/2012/04/21/...snapshot-raid/

However, your particular experience could still be valid, and I would like to see it replicated so I can fix it if not already fixed in the latest release.

I would like to offer you a free license of FlexRAID in exchange to access to a test system were you are able to setup a failing scenario proving your claimed bug.

I have designed FlexRAID to be very smart with data changes such that things like moves only result in metadata update and no parity change. As matter of fact, FlexRAID is the only solution that can recover 100% of the data even after massive data moves across DRUs.

Still, given that you are running some pretty hefty systems, maybe you are encountering something the typical user isn't.

So, would you take my offer? (I will greatly appreciate that)

Thanks.

So if Killroy takes your offer and proves the bug does exist, do I get a free/highly discounted copy since if I didn't create this thread, this bug probably would have never been posted? Pleaseeeeeee
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