WMC7 and the 29/59 bug??? When do we get a REAL FIX across the board? - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 65 Old 07-18-2014, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by pittsoccer33 View Post
Whats the legality of software decoding something like MPEG2? Thats how VLC works right? I'd imagine if its a remotely grey area that Google will keep it out of the market (not that sideloading doesnt work).

Last time I checked, Google itself blocked US users to download VLC for Android app in Play store. I think supporting MPEG2 without paying license is very dangerous in US.
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post #32 of 65 Old 07-18-2014, 09:35 AM
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I just loaded my sample clip on my HTC M8 and I am currently playing it using MX Player. No stuttering, no Jaggies (hard to see on a small phone screen but will try it on my Tablet also).


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post #33 of 65 Old 07-18-2014, 09:47 AM
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I've had MX Player on my phone(s) for four years or so and while I don't have hard evidence, I think it's functionality has been stripped, probably due to using non-licensed software decoding and being called on it. I just can't seem to play as many file types now. A few weekends ago I searched around a bit for older APK files but didn't come up with anything.

ViMu is the best video player for Google TV (outside of Plex if you count that). It's actually the default player on the Asus Cube. It relies solely on hardware. MX Player and XBMC, while technically you can side load them, won't do anything but crash because they're just completely incompatible.


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post #34 of 65 Old 07-18-2014, 10:47 PM
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I'm fairly certain my lg g2 doesn't have an mpeg2 decoder, but it can play mpeg2 1080i60 without stuttering with libstagefright in xbmc

Had it play back a few minutes of comedy central James Franco roast recorded on comcast HD

This is over ac WiFi with a snapdragon 800

I don't happen to have a firetv to test
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post #35 of 65 Old 07-19-2014, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post
....29/59 bugs but some reports that the problem may surface with the newer variant which should be called 14/29 bug, very similar to 29/59 bug but the frame rate switches between 14 and 29 instead of 29 and 59. A lot of premium channels like HBO now broadcasts in 14/29 mode...
Why do I NEVER see this problem on ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX, sports channels ESPN etc, news channels CNN etc. Do the channels supply content to Comcast in the correct format then Comcast butchers it? Where in the chain does Comcast modify the frame rate? National level? Local level? Is Comcast doing it on purpose? For what reason? They obviously can supply ALL the channels without modifying the frame rate, so why don't they?


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post #36 of 65 Old 07-19-2014, 06:40 PM
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Those only happen on certain cable channels like HBO, AMC etc. The problem probably is directly from the source.

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post #37 of 65 Old 07-19-2014, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post
Those only happen on certain cable channels like HBO, AMC etc. The problem probably is directly from the source.

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It's certainly possible, but I'm somewhat doubtful that HBO is sending a feed to comcast that has reduced framerate.

I'm pretty sure the framerate reduction (as well as other tinkering with the signal) is dome by Comcast (and other providers) typically to save bandwidth.

Nearly everything a cable provider does these days is to 1) increase dollars coming in or 2) decrease data being transmitted.

Download caps, speed throttling, framerate reduction, SDV, MPEG-4, all are efforts to reduce data transmission / free up bandwidth.

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post #38 of 65 Old 07-19-2014, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by ajhieb View Post
It's certainly possible, but I'm somewhat doubtful that HBO is sending a feed to comcast that has reduced framerate.
The issue isn't limited to pay-TV. Even OTA you'll see it say in one commercial and not the next... in one show and not the next via the same network. One example is The Good Wife.

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post #39 of 65 Old 07-19-2014, 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Charles R View Post
The issue isn't limited to pay-TV. Even OTA you'll see it say in one commercial and not the next... in one show and not the next via the same network. One example is The Good Wife.
What happens with OTA is going to be different than cable obviously.

That said, I was responding to someone talking about HBO and other non-OTA channels. And 'm somewhat doubtful that HBO is sending a feed to comcast that has reduced framerate.

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post #40 of 65 Old 07-19-2014, 07:48 PM
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I don't pretend to understand video framerates but whoever is doing it sure is doing a sloppy job of it. I mean, if they are doing it on purpose (like bandwidth), you would think they would choose one frame rate and stick with it. Why is it 29 for 2 seconds then 14 for 1 second then 29 for 4 seconds then 14 for 2 seconds. What would happen if they locked it at 14, or locked it at 29? Would there be a clearly visible effect? It seems like more of an accidental thing, like an error/glitch in some encoder/algorigthm. Again, I know nothing technical about this....


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post #41 of 65 Old 07-19-2014, 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted by ajhieb View Post
What happens with OTA is going to be different than cable obviously.
Not at all as it is exactly the same "bug" You can add Bad Teacher to the List... the two episodes CBS burned off tonight.

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post #42 of 65 Old 07-19-2014, 08:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Charles R View Post
Not at all as it is exactly the same "bug"
HBO is a non-stop, uninterrupted feed to the cable company as far as I know. There is no national commercials to insert, no local commercials to insert, it is simply a continuous feed from HBO. Same resolution, same framerate, some aspect ratio... same everything.

OTA broadcasting has national programming, local programming, national commercials, local commercials, and all of it might be different resolutions, aspect ratios, and who knows what else would be different.

So while any content can suffer from the 29/59 issue, with all due respect What happens with OTA is going to be different than cable obviously.

Having said that, I'm somewhat doubtful that HBO is sending a feed to comcast that has reduced framerate.

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post #43 of 65 Old 07-20-2014, 01:28 AM
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I had 59/29 stuttering on some SD OTA channels when using the Intel integrated graphics with WMC. However WMPlayer & MPC-HC were OK. Installing a cheap HD6450 video card fixed it.

While I never saw a problem when watching HD OTA programs with the integrated graphics, MPC-HC did indicate the frame rate was always drifting. The video card made the rate rock steady. So it fixed a problem I did not perceive existed. I guess that was bonus.
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post #44 of 65 Old 07-20-2014, 06:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike99 View Post
I had 59/29 stuttering on some SD OTA channels when using the Intel integrated graphics with WMC.
I know it's been posted numerous times however if you uncheck Adaptive Contrast Enhancement you'll be good to go.

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post #45 of 65 Old 07-20-2014, 08:31 AM
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The 29/59 or 14/29 framerate bug has no relation to saving "bandwidth" by Comcast or anybody else. It is entirely from the source, not Comcast. And even at the source, it is not HBO mangling the framerate, it's how the video/movie was recorded. If you want to blame someone, blame the studio/director who shot the movie.

Unless someone specifically transcodes the stream (which they don't), the variation in framerate is embedded directly in the video.

The cable-boxes from Comcast and others have specific logic to address that variation, which is why you don't see it there. Microsoft, in their infinite wisdom, decided to not include that logic. Boo Microsoft...
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post #46 of 65 Old 07-20-2014, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by kapone View Post
The 29/59 or 14/29 framerate bug has no relation to saving "bandwidth" by Comcast or anybody else. It is entirely from the source, not Comcast. And even at the source, it is not HBO mangling the framerate, it's how the video/movie was recorded. If you want to blame someone, blame the studio/director who shot the movie.

Unless someone specifically transcodes the stream (which they don't), the variation in framerate is embedded directly in the video.

The cable-boxes from Comcast and others have specific logic to address that variation, which is why you don't see it there. Microsoft, in their infinite wisdom, decided to not include that logic. Boo Microsoft...
That does explain why I don't see symptoms on "live"channels like local news, CNN, ESPN. But it seems kinda suspicious that EVERY movie shown on HBO has the symptoms. That would mean EVERY studio uses the same process- hardware, software, settings to transfer every film ever made from master to distribution in whatever formats it sends to HBO? That's a pretty wide spread coincidence.... Maybe all the studios use the same company to do the master to distribution process? Hmmm


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post #47 of 65 Old 07-20-2014, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by kapone View Post
The 29/59 or 14/29 framerate bug has no relation to saving "bandwidth" by Comcast or anybody else. It is entirely from the source, not Comcast. And even at the source, it is not HBO mangling the framerate, it's how the video/movie was recorded. If you want to blame someone, blame the studio/director who shot the movie.

Unless someone specifically transcodes the stream (which they don't), the variation in framerate is embedded directly in the video.

The cable-boxes from Comcast and others have specific logic to address that variation, which is why you don't see it there. Microsoft, in their infinite wisdom, decided to not include that logic. Boo Microsoft...
I'm sorry, but I don't believe for one second that HBO studios is shooting anything interlaced or at 14fps, that they are mastering anything as interlaced or at 14fps, that they are incorrectly flagging content as interlaced or at 14fps.

Cable companies absolutely transcode video streams all the time. For the exact reason I mentioned above. I've never heard specifically that they change framerate for that purpose (that was speculation on my part and indicated as such) , but they absolutely transcode/modify the incoming stream beyond the shadow of a doubt to reduce the bitrate. I can record a show from my local CBS affiliate OTA, and record the same program from the same affiliate via Cable, it it will be half the size. Those bits don't get fatter because they flew through the air. The difference is (in my case) TWC transcodes the stream.

So as I stated before, I don't know that the cable companies are causing the framerate issue, but I do know they are tinkering with the streams, and I do know that it makes absolutely no sense to suggest that HBO is sending the cable companies a crap signal to begin with, nor does it make any sense that the stream is broken at the source, since it doesn't seem to affect every cable provider.

http://www.engadget.com/2007/06/22/h...imum-bit-rate/

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post #48 of 65 Old 07-20-2014, 09:29 AM
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Well, I stand corrected in that case. To my knowledge, Comcast didn't mess with the framerate, but yes, I was being incorrect in that they didn't "transcode" the streams. Sorry, I was typing in a hurry. However, I wasn't aware that that transcoding process may have been responsible for the framerate variation.
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post #49 of 65 Old 07-20-2014, 01:07 PM
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Virtually all cable providers exhibit the same problem on the same channel at the same time or show. So, that means it is from the source.

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post #50 of 65 Old 07-20-2014, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post
Virtually all cable providers exhibit the same problem on the same channel at the same time or show. So, that means it is from the source.
Really?

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Why do I NEVER see this problem on ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX, sports channels ESPN etc, news channels CNN etc.
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Not at all as it is exactly the same "bug" You can add Bad Teacher to the List... the two episodes CBS burned off tonight.

I didn't even have to get off of this page to shoot that down. I realize that Charles R is using OTA not cable, but if the problem is from the source as you claim, then it should effect OTA and cable across the board. And while both sometimes show symptoms, I certainly haven't seen anything that would indicate the problem is as universal as you claim.

If there is some content that you claim is always wrong tell me what it is, and I'll look and see what it's doing here on my end. I get almost everything outside of the premium paid channels, so just let me know when and what channel and I'll have a look at the 411 info.

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post #51 of 65 Old 07-20-2014, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Charles R View Post
I know it's been posted numerous times however if you uncheck Adaptive Contrast Enhancement you'll be good to go.
I've heard of that being done when folks have the brightness fluctuating. However mine was a stuttering problem which looked like a couple of frames were missing every so often. A person would be walking down the sidewalk & all of sudden they were a step ahead of where they should be. It depended on content but could be noticeable several times per minute. I'd play back a recording & whenever the stutter/skip occurred the frame rate flickered from 59 to 29 fps.
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post #52 of 65 Old 07-20-2014, 03:55 PM
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I've heard of that being done when folks have the brightness fluctuating. However mine was a stuttering problem which looked like a couple of frames were missing every so often. A person would be walking down the sidewalk & all of sudden they were a step ahead of where they should be. It depended on content but could be noticeable several times per minute. I'd play back a recording & whenever the stutter/skip occurred the frame rate flickered from 59 to 29 fps.
There might be two bugs. I do know over the years I have noticed it becoming less and less obvious with the Intel video drivers. I think it's more driver updates than hardware as I'm using the same PC and it's not nearly as noticeable as it was two years ago. Originally it was a severe lightning storm and now it's more a distant light show.

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post #53 of 65 Old 07-20-2014, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post
Virtually all cable providers exhibit the same problem on the same channel at the same time or show. So, that means it is from the source.
After a little further digging, I think we're both right...

I watched A&E for an hour... caught the last half hour of some Storage Wars BTS show and then the first half hour of Duck Dynasty (both A&E original programming)

Both were showing original resolution of 1920x1080.

Storage Wars was a rock solid 59.94 fps the entire time.
Duck Dynasty was 29.97 most of the time, but would jump to 59.94 every 5-10 seconds.

It seems odd that one A&E show would come from A&E mastered properly, and another would come through incorrectly, but it seems even less plausible that TWC would screw with one of them but not the other. So in that regard, I think you're right that some of the content is coming from the network flagged incorrectly. (still seems weird to me but something about Occam shaving applies here I think)

That said I'm fairly certain that networks like SyFy aren't sending out programming at half NTSC frame rates so the 14fps issue, while displaying similar symptoms has a slightly different cause. I strongly suspect that the issue with the 14/29fps issue is tied to cable providers transcoding the programming.

When I looked earlier SyFy was coming through at 29.97 so it doesn't appear to be an issue here with TWC but perhaps it is elsewhere.

Either way, I'm paying TWC, and they in turn are negotiating with the various networks. Since TWC is my service provider (not CBS, HBO, A&E or any other network) I still think it is up to them to provide the proper content.

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post #54 of 65 Old 07-20-2014, 04:06 PM
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I said before and will say it again: it's only on certain cable channels and certain shows on those cable channels. Not all channels and not all shows. So far, the common suspects are AMC, HBO where majority of complaints are seen and less often Syfy and A&E channels. If you catch a show on one of these channels, check with someone of another cable provider, I'd bet both will see the same problem. It is the problem from the source, not individual cable provider.
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post #55 of 65 Old 07-20-2014, 05:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post
I said before and will say it again: it's only on certain cable channels and certain shows on those cable channels. Not all channels and not all shows. So far, the common suspects are AMC, HBO where majority of complaints are seen and less often Syfy and A&E channels. If you catch a show on one of these channels, check with someone of another cable provider, I'd bet both will see the same problem. It is the problem from the source, not individual cable provider.
Neither of us have a definitive source. We're both just making educated guesses. And that's fine.

The difference is, I was addressing a specific question, regarding specific behavior, and attempting to explain said behavior. You continue to try and explain things despite that observed behavior.

As observed by people in this thread it isn't isolated to cable channels, and it doesn't happen consistently on a given network from one provider to another. Now if you want to call Charles R or hammerdwn out and call them liars, that's between you and them. I happen to believe both of them and have provided an explanation that is consistent with both of their observations.

Television delivery be it OTA or cable is an extremely complex system and there are numerous places where errors can occur. It is naive to assume that because an error is introduced in one way on one network that it must be the same for all networks.

Your explanation simply ignores the fact that the errors are not observed the same on the same network from different providers. If CBS content plays fine on Comcast (on a system where the issue is evident) but doesn't play fine from an OTA affiliate then it is pretty clear to me that the problem in that case is not with the network, otherwise it would happen on Comcast as well.

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post #56 of 65 Old 07-20-2014, 05:57 PM
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I was also addressing a very specific issue where real 29/59 problem shows up most often to explain that Comcast alone can't cause this. Whether or not OTA channels also have this problem, I have no idea and can't verify. You fail to read the post and comprehend what I'm try to explain.

If the same show on the same channel has the same problem on various cable providers, it is a problem from source and I have seen posts of that, not guess. I never said every show on those channels or every channel have that same issue.

Different shows could be produced by different studios and hence mastered differently. A cable network simply put them together, not necessary re-master them. So, it is very possible for shows to behave differently on the same network channel.

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post #57 of 65 Old 07-20-2014, 06:48 PM
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I was also addressing a very specific issue where real 29/59 problem shows up most often to explain that Comcast alone can't cause this. Whether or not OTA channels also have this problem, I have no idea and can't verify. You fail to read the post and comprehend what I'm try to explain.

If the same show on the same channel has the same problem on various cable providers, it is a problem from source and I have seen posts of that, not guess. I never said every show on those channels or every channel have that same issue.

Different shows could be produced by different studios and hence mastered differently. A cable network simply put them together, not necessary re-master them. So, it is very possible for shows to behave differently on the same network channel.
If the same show has the same problem on all (not "various" or "some" or "most") then I think it's fair to say the problem is elsewhere. (likely from the network) But if the problem exists from some providers, and not others, it isn't unreasonable to conclude that the problem is with the providers where the problem occurs.

One person here claims to have never seen the issue at all on CBS. I'm taking him at his word. Another user has described multiple instances of seeing the issue on CBS. I'm taking him at his word too. You know what that tells me? The problem, in all likelihood isn't CBS. The problem, in all likelihood, is introduced after the transport stream from the network has left the network feed.

Having said that, I've acknowledged that some of the problems can be coming from the network feed, before the cable providers ever touch the signal. Nobody is arguing that. But what I'm also saying (and you seem to be arguing without providing anything to back up your argument) is that feeds from HBO are undeniably modified by the cable companies (that much isn't even up for debate) and because of the nature of those premium channels the network pretty much has total control over the content being delivered to the provider. (no local commercials, no syndicated content, everything is content from a major studio, or from their in house production) and as such, much less likely to be malformed. So take a network that is going to great measures to make sure that their content is displayed properly (negotiating bandwidth minimums into their contracts etc) and a cable company that we know is modifying the feed from HBO, and I don't feel it is a leap to suggest that the problem could be introduced at the cable provider. If you have proof to the contrary, I'm all ears, but as of right now, we are both just speculating.

Now you can claim that HBO is wrecked universally, and if that's true, I'm more inclined to believe that the issue with HBO also originates at the network level, but so far all you've done is just say that it is a universal problem. If you say that the problem exists with HBO on your provider, I'll certainly take your word for it. But when you claim that it happens with every provider, I'm going to need something more than your word to give your theory any credibility. Sure it's a possibility. I'm not denying that. I just haven't seen anything that points me toward it being a likely one.

But in a nutshell, all I'm saying is that there is a possibility not all of the problems are coming from the networks. If you're claiming that it isn't even a possibility, you need to show some better proof than "various cable providers" have the similar issues. If you acknowledge that there is a possibility some of the issues could be coming from the cable providers, then what are you even arguing for?

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post #58 of 65 Old 07-20-2014, 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post
Different shows could be produced by different studios and hence mastered differently.
I have only seen the issue with my local CBS affiliate. Looking at my scheduled series I'd guess most of them have the issue. The Late Late Show does not however I have seen when they show clips of a show the clip itself has the issue.

Regarding those seeing the issue I tend to think there is more than one and often they are lumped together as the "bug" I have never seen skipped frames like the other poster. So either it's another bug or perhaps my hardware and or drivers are doing a better job of masking the bug. Also based on your hardware and drivers you may or may not see the see issue at all.

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post #59 of 65 Old 07-20-2014, 07:50 PM
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I watch/record a LOT of CBS. NEVER EVER seen any sort of frame rate issue on Comcast WMC here.


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post #60 of 65 Old 07-20-2014, 08:02 PM
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I watch/record a LOT of CBS. NEVER EVER seen any sort of frame rate issue on Comcast WMC here.
This is what I see...


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