WMC7 and the 29/59 bug??? When do we get a REAL FIX across the board? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 65 Old 05-03-2012, 04:48 AM - Thread Starter
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I being new to WMC7 and since getting the Ceton PCIe board a frequent user. Find this bug who's ever problem it is, too be very annoying.

I have searched both here and also Googled it and find really strange that there is no real fix this bug.

Some say the graphics driver, some say Microsoft WMC7 and of course the makers of the tuner board or device you are using. Maybe even the networks them selves

What gives? No one wants to own it or is there some other reason?

Who do we pester,annoy or get down right belligerent with to get this bug fixed for GOOD?

Rew
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post #2 of 65 Old 05-03-2012, 05:10 AM
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It is WMC for sure, nothing to do with tuners. Even Microsoft ackonwleges it but refuse to fix it. If you want it fixed today, buy an Xbox 360 as extender and it never suffers from this bug.
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post #3 of 65 Old 05-03-2012, 05:17 AM - Thread Starter
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What crazy is seems more prevalent on the premium channels; HBO,Showtime...etc.

Surely there must be something we can do to get MS and or, to get this fixed.

Any ideas???

Rew
Tune to suspect channel
Use 411 and CTRL D and use left or right cursor to view Frame Rate. The channel affected will flicker back and forth 29/59.
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post #4 of 65 Old 05-03-2012, 05:43 AM - Thread Starter
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It seems using the above method to observe the Framerate; it seems to follow when the program is flagged "copy once". What does this mean?

MS has an interpretation problem and is misfiring on the framerate getting the 29/59 bug.

Or?

Rew

Another thought cound it have to do with the cable provider?

Mine is Comcast
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post #5 of 65 Old 05-03-2012, 06:15 AM
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The root cause of this issue is some premium channels send out 1080p30 video disguised as 1080i60 sgnal the channels normally do. It happened mostly on HBO channels but other channels could be affected as well. So, WMC is designed to interperate a fixed format signals. When this kind of hybrid video stream is processed, it freaks out WMC's video codec chain and doing some crazy things of resetting the entire decoing chain. MS is aware of the problem but to fully resolve this issue, they have to re-architect the entire WMC video processing. Obviously not an easy thing.

Copy-once means the channel/program is copy protected and the recordings will be encrypted on the disk so that it can only be played back by the same PC who records it.

29/59 bug has been reported for quite a while now. So, it is extremely unlikely you will ever see it fixed by MS in Win7. Your only choice is try different video cards. Some video card works better than others. Or try the Xbox 360 route I posted above which is never affected by this bug.
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post #6 of 65 Old 05-03-2012, 06:47 AM - Thread Starter
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What you write make sense but I find highly unlikely that the fix does not already exist.

Someone or a group of some one's at MS must have fixed it; if for nothing else for themselves.

So why not release to us?

Does not make any sense to withhold this type of fix affecting most users of WMC7.

There must be someway to get them to get a update to fix this.

MS could even put a token charge such as $20 or less to recoup some costs.

Rew
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post #7 of 65 Old 05-03-2012, 06:48 AM
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i was under the impression this only affected some ati cards?

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post #8 of 65 Old 05-03-2012, 06:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rew452 View Post

What you write make sense but I find highly unlikely that the fix does not already exist.

Someone or a group of some one's at MS must have fixed it; if for nothing else for themselves.

So why not release to us?

Does not make any sense to withhold this type of fix affecting most users of WMC7.

There must be someway to get them to get a update to fix this.

MS could even put a token charge such as $20 or less to recoup some costs.

Rew

Um, why would assume that M$ has a fix? As other posters have suggested, it would be a significant undertaking. M$ doesn't invest much resources into WMC anymore. Just because M$ is a large company doesn't mean they have engineers available to fix bugs on every single piece of software M$ has ever released.
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post #9 of 65 Old 05-03-2012, 07:10 AM
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Originally Posted by pittsoccer33 View Post

i was under the impression this only affected some ati cards?

Nope. Both. But some say ATi cards are more prone to this bug. And newer nVidia cards are worse than old cards.

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Originally Posted by lockdown571 View Post

Um, why would assume that M$ has a fix? As other posters have suggested, it would be a significant undertaking. M$ doesn't invest much resources into WMC anymore. Just because M$ is a large company doesn't mean they have engineers available to fix bugs on every single piece of software M$ has ever released.

Exactly. In big companies, every engineering effort must be budgetted before hand. No budget, not engieering effort hence no fix.

Your best hope is Win8 will fix it.
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post #10 of 65 Old 05-03-2012, 07:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post

Nope. Both. But some say ATi cards are more prone to this bug. And newer nVidia cards are worse than old cards.



Exactly. In big companies, every engineering effort must be budgetted before hand. No budget, not engieering effort hence no fix.

Your best hope is Win8 will fix it.

That has already been reveled in the beta, has it not? WMC7 as a add in, right?

Rew
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post #11 of 65 Old 05-03-2012, 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post

Nope. Both. But some say ATi cards are more prone to this bug. And newer nVidia cards are worse than old cards.



Exactly. In big companies, every engineering effort must be budgetted before hand. No budget, not engieering effort hence no fix.

Your best hope is Win8 will fix it.

I have been trying to clear up the misconception that ATI and NVidia cards automatically fix all refresh rates for almost a year.

Despite this many think that Intel is the worst and ATI/NVidia are just perfect.
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post #12 of 65 Old 05-03-2012, 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post

Exactly. In big companies, every engineering effort must be budgetted before hand. No budget, not engieering effort hence no fix.

I am an engineer in a large company and this is absolutely true. The worst thing you can do with software is innovate or deviate from the plan. It just creates more bugs and creates effort that might not lead to the bottom line. Fixing some bug for a miniscule group of consumers is not really going to sell more copies of Office or Windows so it really doesn't make any sense to spend any effort to fix this -- no even to offshore it to India.

 

 

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post #13 of 65 Old 05-03-2012, 07:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Most of arguments I can see but remember I think right now there is a upsurge in WMC7 usage with the advent of the cablecard tuners.

WMC was ahead of it's time but I think it time has come.

Somehow we need to find a way to get MS onboard and capitalize it

Rew
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post #14 of 65 Old 05-03-2012, 07:55 AM
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Despite this many think that Intel is the worst and ATI/NVidia are just perfect.

I know that I am personally much more familiar with nvidia because I've been using them for ten years since the MX series. I would immediately know how to set up a different color space or configure multiple monitors.

Not that doing that on an intel driver would be difficult, but I don't know exactly how to do it.

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post #15 of 65 Old 05-03-2012, 08:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Another thing;

Did not MS just finish or is getting ready to release WMC on the embedded platform?

I am sure the bug must be fixed there, don't you think?

Rew
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post #16 of 65 Old 05-03-2012, 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Rew452 View Post

Most of arguments I can see but remember I think right now there is a upsurge in WMC7 usage with the advent of the cablecard tuners.

WMC was ahead of it's time but I think it time has come.

I am in that boat. Never paid attention to WMC until this year when I got my Ceton card.
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post #17 of 65 Old 05-03-2012, 08:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rew452 View Post

Another thing;

Did not MS just finish or is getting ready to release WMC on the embedded platform?

I am sure the bug must be fixed there, don't you think?

Rew

Windows 7 Embedded is done more than a year ago. It is probably up to OEM to pick the video card to work around this bug.
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post #18 of 65 Old 05-03-2012, 08:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post

Windows 7 Embedded is done more than a year ago. It is probably up to OEM to pick the video card to work around this bug.

Is there a video card that can work do the around?

From what I have found it affects all of them to some degree or another.

Rew
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post #19 of 65 Old 05-03-2012, 08:43 AM
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There are plenty of threads already discussing which video card works with WMC for 29/59 bug.

If you are waiting for a fix from MS, dream on.

Yes, WMC is available in latest Win8 Consumer Preview. But I have yet to see any confirmation if this bug is fixed or not.
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post #20 of 65 Old 05-03-2012, 08:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post

There are plenty of threads already discussing which video card works with WMC for 29/59 bug.

If you are waiting for a fix from MS, dream on.

Yes, WMC is available in latest Win8 Consumer Preview. But I have yet to see any confirmation if this bug is fixed or not.

Thats my whole point, with that many threads running about so called fixes only tells me; We "Don't Have a True Fix yet".

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post #21 of 65 Old 07-06-2013, 08:55 AM
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I know I may be late to the game but noticed you said that the problem doesnt go to the xbox 360. I have a pc with the 29/59 bug and it is on all my xboxs when used as extenders as well. Any thoughts as to why or how to fix this?

Thanks.
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post #22 of 65 Old 07-18-2014, 06:04 AM
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I know I may be late to the game but noticed you said that the problem doesnt go to the xbox 360. I have a pc with the 29/59 bug and it is on all my xboxs when used as extenders as well. Any thoughts as to why or how to fix this?

Thanks.

Same here. I get the same shaking picture on my Xbox 360 extender as I do my PC. Thought at 360 extender would fix but it doesn't. Wish a fix would happen!
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post #23 of 65 Old 07-18-2014, 07:14 AM
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Typically, in my own experience, on Xbox 360s, the chopyness is caused by network bandwidth/traffic issue than the video formats (29/59).
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post #24 of 65 Old 07-18-2014, 07:39 AM
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Typically, in my own experience, on Xbox 360s, the chopyness is caused by network bandwidth/traffic issue than the video formats (29/59).
In my experience both the xbox360 and Ceton Echo do suffer the same visual problems when the source material is badly flagged. Several people have played this sample badly flagged clip and do see the issues.

I am hoping Android Tv succeeds and that it does not suffer this problem. I have repeatedly asked if the FireTv box can play WTV files but nobody is responding to me in that thread

Last edited by hammerdwn; 07-18-2014 at 09:02 AM. Reason: fix link to video clip
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post #25 of 65 Old 07-18-2014, 07:55 AM
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Fire TV doesn't have an MPEG2 decoder, so unless you have H264 in your WTV file (which you either put there yourself or subscribe to someone like Cox who transmits a small number of H264 encoded channels) then I don't imagine it will play regardless of whether it supports the WTV container.

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post #26 of 65 Old 07-18-2014, 07:57 AM
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Fire TV doesn't have an MPEG2 decoder, so unless you have H264 in your WTV file (which you either put there yourself or subscribe to someone like Cox who transmits a small number of H264 encoded channels) then I don't imagine it will play regardless of whether it supports the WTV container.
What if you side-load XBMC, does that include an mpeg2 decoder?

Android Tv demoed live Tv, so it seems like it will have mpeg2
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post #27 of 65 Old 07-18-2014, 08:29 AM
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I guess that would be in software then. I know these things get more powerful all the time, but that would be interesting to see if the ARM chip is powerful enough to do it.

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post #28 of 65 Old 07-18-2014, 08:35 AM
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The biggest roadblock to MPEG2 decoder is the licensing cost. It's not cheap. That's the only reason why they are not included.
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post #29 of 65 Old 07-18-2014, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by hammerdwn View Post
In my experience both the xbox360 and Ceton Echo do suffer the same visual problems when the source material is badly flagged. Several people have played this sample badly flagged clip and verified they see it too.

I am hoping Android Tv succeeds and that it does not suffer this problem. I have repeatedly asked if the FireTv box can play WTV files but nobody is responding to me in that thread
My experience is that Xbox 360 is fine with 29/59 bugs but some reports that the problem may surface with the newer variant which should be called 14/29 bug, very similar to 29/59 bug but the frame rate switches between 14 and 29 instead of 29 and 59. A lot of premium channels like HBO now broadcasts in 14/29 mode.

Echo is a separate issue. It stutters regardless. One of the many bugs remain unsolved.

Cable companies should really push hard to move into h.264 based video distribution which makes these kind of issue irrelevant. I know Verizon moved some channels over to H.264, so is Cox. And Silicondust is working on (for a long time) a hardware transcoded (from MPEG2 to H.264) CableCard tuner.

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post #30 of 65 Old 07-18-2014, 08:42 AM
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Overall relatively few devices in this space have hardware MPEG2 decoding. The only basis I have for comparision is the Raspberry Pi MPEG2 license for about $4. Not expensive right there, but over several hundred thousand units trying to make a tight price point I can imagine it being too much.

Whats the legality of software decoding something like MPEG2? Thats how VLC works right? I'd imagine if its a remotely grey area that Google will keep it out of the market (not that sideloading doesnt work).

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