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post #61 of 82 Old 05-26-2012, 03:13 PM - Thread Starter
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I have an SSD in my main pc and while it was a great upgrade, some of the benefits are a bit overblown -

- no one should have to turn their pc on/off. Even with hdd, resume from sleep takes no time. With an ssd boot time is much faster but it really doesn't matter

- yes, apps do launch faster. But I open my apps like browser once and then almost never close them. Again for a lot of cases, if you have an OS install with no bloatware, its not a night/day difference

- games are an exception, since they do a lot of reads. Same would apply to other disk intensive apps.

If you have to pick between extra space or an ssd, its a pretty easy choice. Laptops are a perfect example, since most can only have either hdd or ssd, and I would never choose an ssd, since I can't afford the larger ones.
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post #62 of 82 Old 05-26-2012, 03:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Defcon View Post

I have an SSD in my main pc and while it was a great upgrade, some of the benefits are a bit overblown -

- no one should have to turn their pc on/off. Even with hdd, resume from sleep takes no time. With an ssd boot time is much faster but it really doesn't matter

- yes, apps do launch faster. But I open my apps like browser once and then almost never close them. Again for a lot of cases, if you have an OS install with no bloatware, its not a night/day difference

- games are an exception, since they do a lot of reads. Same would apply to other disk intensive apps.

If you have to pick between extra space or an ssd, its a pretty easy choice. Laptops are a perfect example, since most can only have either hdd or ssd, and I would never choose an ssd, since I can't afford the larger ones.

Bingo.

I don't see the point in paying so much more just just have faster boot times. That alone is not a reason to buy an SSD.

I do turn off my PC. I don't like to leave it in sleep mode. Takes about 45 seconds ~ 1 min to boot up. Plenty fast enough and have plenty of Room for all my games and media.
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post #63 of 82 Old 05-26-2012, 03:39 PM
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I swear some people must be using totally different products than what I use.
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post #64 of 82 Old 05-26-2012, 03:43 PM
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And what is it that you use?
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post #65 of 82 Old 05-26-2012, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by JukeBox360 View Post

And what is it that you use?

Ssds.
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post #66 of 82 Old 05-26-2012, 04:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

That's not even close to my experience and I disagree completely with your assessment.

The only place where it makes sense not to use an SSD for the OS is perhaps a server as there is no opening of programs, no rebooting, no thumbing through large libraries using a frontend, etc.

But even with a server often you can get a SSD cheaper than a small hard drive so financially it makes sense to use a SSD in that setting as well.

What type of HTPC are you referring to? A plain media streamer or a DVR? I can see if the only thing the HTPC will be doing is streaming, but recording TV shows and saving to SSD is just not practical right now, and someone would need to add a spinner to get the capacity needed to save the shows.

As far as your second statement most computer users have extra lower capacity drives laying around why spend more when it is absolutely unnecessary.

I am not saying that I hate SSD's I like them, but to come from the view that they provide everything anyone could want is not true. There are times when they would be major benefits and some when those benefits wouldn't be used.
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post #67 of 82 Old 05-26-2012, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by SUBCOB View Post

What type of HTPC are you referring to? A plain media streamer or a DVR? I can see if the only thing the HTPC will be doing is streaming, but recording TV shows and saving to SSD is just not practical right now, and someone would need to add a spinner to get the capacity needed to save the shows.

As far as your second statement most computer users have extra lower capacity drives laying around why spend more when it is absolutely unnecessary.

I am not saying that I hate SSD's I like them, but to come from the view that they provide everything anyone could want is not true. There are times when they would be major benefits and some when those benefits wouldn't be used.

I expect my htpc to do more than just record or stream. Maybe some of you don't and for that any pc from the last decade may serve you well.
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post #68 of 82 Old 05-26-2012, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Somewhatlost View Post

those are all refurb's
I am not 100% sure I like the idea of a refurb HDD... but regrardless, give it some time there should be some refurb SSD's and then you can do an apples to apples comparison...


but we aren't talking media capacity... we are talking OS drives...
all my media is stored on a server that has multiple HDD's and parity... that is what servers are for


what extra money? (assuming you dont want a refurb)
Western Digital AV-GP WD3200AUDX 320GB IntelliPower 32MB Cache SATA 6.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drive -Bare Drive $59.99
OCZ Solid 3 SLD3-25SAT3-60G 2.5" 60GB SATA III MLC $59.99
$60 vs $60 seems pretty even really...
actually you could say that the SSD is a much better value as the one and only thing the spinny HDD is better at is capacity (for now)
especially if you consider capacity for an os drive for most application is almost completely irrelevant...

you mean other than the benefits of higher reliability, less noise, less heat, less power... I would think anything that is left on 24/7 would greatly benefit from less power...



why would you throw a spinner in an HTPC for storage? isn't that what servers are for?
I guess if you only have one HTPC that might make sense though... so I agree, in this one specific case, where you want massive storage in a HTPC, but you don't want/need multiple drives, then just get one big spinny drive and share it with OS & media... at least until big SSD's start to become more reasonably priced...

Your right they are refurbs, but most come with a 90 day warranty. I have bought a couple I just made sure I pre cleared them prior to installing into the system to ensure they would hold up. I have had one running for 2 years as my cache drive in my server.

If I am using the 320G drive I can partition a 60G slice for the OS and still have 260G for data. If the speed of the drive is not an issue this would make more fiscal sense.

The reliability of drives (SSD, spinner, input drive here) is hit or miss. I have lost a couple of each drive. So for me they are equally reliable Saying SSD's are more reliable than spinners because there are no moving parts is an assumption.

I can't say anything about noise, SSD's have none, but if you have any fans in the box the hard drive will not be heard by most.

As far as power is concerned you are talking about 2-4 watts depending if it's idle or spinning.

I am just trying to give the OP some things to think about without driving them into what ever I think is the right thing to do. Depending on what he wants to do with the system will determine if the benefits of an SSD out way the price/GB difference. Not everyone wants 2 drives in there HTPC, and some want a data drive for keeping recored content meaning you would be using more power by having 2 drives.
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post #69 of 82 Old 05-26-2012, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by assassin View Post

I expect my htpc to do more than just record or stream. Maybe some of you don't and for that any pc from the last decade may serve you well.

Recording TV shows is one of a few things I demand out of my HTPC, but that is my point really, people are telling the OP to go SSD without giving him what the best options are for him.

I didn't know you determined what an HTPC was and wasn't. I guess you are the the sudo to what an HTPC haas to be. How about expanding your mind and give advice based on what somebody needs/want instead of what you think.
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post #70 of 82 Old 05-26-2012, 04:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SUBCOB View Post

Recording TV shows is one of a few things I demand out of my HTPC, but that is my point really, people are telling the OP to go SSD without giving him what the best options are for him.

I didn't know you determined what an HTPC was and wasn't. I guess you are the the sudo to what an HTPC haas to be. How about expanding your mind and give advice based on what somebody needs/want instead of what you think.

Have you seen my sticky guide? I also state that an ssd is a luxury item. But to say there isn't a dramatic difference just isn't accurate, imo.

And speaking of opinions isn't that what all of these statements are? Don't know how you can chastise me for giving mine.
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post #71 of 82 Old 05-26-2012, 05:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

Have you seen my sticky guide? I also state that an ssd is a luxury item. But to say there isn't a dramatic difference just isn't accurate, imo.

And speaking of opinions isn't that what all of these statements are? Don't know how you can chastise me for giving mine.

Indeed they are. And I'm not saying there isn't any positives to owning an SSD. I'm simply saying it isn't a necessity. Sure load times are great. But I believe until the price evens out or SSD becomes the norm. It will still be a luxury item.
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post #72 of 82 Old 05-26-2012, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by JukeBox360 View Post

Indeed they are. And I'm not saying there isn't any positives to owning an SSD. I'm simply saying it isn't a necessity. Sure load times are great. But I believe until the price evens out or SSD becomes the norm. It will still be a luxury item.

It opens programs faster (minor benefit). It loads Windows faster (minor benefit with potential for moderate benefit depending on how much you start and restart windows).

But the area it shines is with large libraries using WMC, Media Browser, XBMC, etc. Things are just "snappier" and to me that's worth the cost of a $60 upgrade when I plan on using the HTPC for 3-5 years. So we are talking about $12-$15 per year (or about $1 per month) for those perks. So while it may be a "luxury" its a luxury I can afford with how much I use my HTPC and HOW I use my HTPC.

I have "wasted" money on much more foolish things in my life and that's why --- personally --- I will never build another non-server PC or HTPC without a SSD ever again.

BTW has anyone ever tested how many HD streams you can stream from a 5400RPM hard drive with and without a SSD handling the OS? I know that with using a SSD for the OS the answer is at least 5 as has been done by an independent reviewer with one of my systems. So that could be another moderate to major benefit.
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post #73 of 82 Old 05-26-2012, 05:24 PM
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I think if money was really tight for the build of a htpc then I would use a spinner and partition it out and use the rest for the data . If a person is limping into htpc and just wants to get there feet wet and not sure they will stick with it then this makes some sense.

I actually wanted to build my htpc 2 months before I actually did just to save a bit extra for my ssd . I knew it was a luxury item but the perks were just to good so I waited a bit .

The verdict for me ..... today ?

After using the htpc with the ssd there is no way I would build ANY pc with out one. That is my personnel opinion ... which btw , everyone is entitled to. This is a forum ... right ?
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post #74 of 82 Old 05-26-2012, 07:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Of course an ssd is better. And the difference will be bigger the more random reads are needed. Which like I said, applies to XBMC/WMC with large libraries.

But a majority of people build HTPC's that are standalone, with no media server, and many times HTPC cases can't accommodate many drives. In this case an ssd is definitely a tradeoff with having 10x more storage space.
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post #75 of 82 Old 05-26-2012, 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Defcon View Post

Of course an ssd is better. And the difference will be bigger the more random reads are needed. Which like I said, applies to XBMC/WMC with large libraries.

But a majority of people build HTPC's that are standalone, with no media server, and many times HTPC cases can't accommodate many drives. In this case an ssd is definitely a tradeoff with having 10x more storage space.

You can almost always fit a SSD in any case.

Velcro is your friend.
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post #76 of 82 Old 05-27-2012, 06:29 AM
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Originally Posted by assassin View Post

Have you seen my sticky guide? I also state that an ssd is a luxury item. But to say there isn't a dramatic difference just isn't accurate, imo.

And speaking of opinions isn't that what all of these statements are? Don't know how you can chastise me for giving mine.

As I looked at my post again, I did come off a little condemning of you. My overall point to you is your running a business and although you have your opinions, but the most important thing is to give the customer what they need, not what you think they need. Everyone does different things with there HTPC, and putting it in a single category that all computers need an SSD is not good business practice. At least that is how I interpreted your posts.

As for SSD's I like them, I have a few, but for every rig you may not see any of the benefits of an SSD, and for those they may want to think about a large spinner. They can always upgrade later if there HTPC use changes as most of ours does.

Did the SSD stream tester mention how many streams you can stream on a 5400rpm spinner?
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post #77 of 82 Old 05-27-2012, 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Somewhatlost View Post

name one spinny HDD that is currently less than $50?

why does a SSD need to cost less than a spinny drive, when a SSD is better than a spinning in every way except capacity?



Who said anything about a spinny for < $50? I think you completely took that the wrong way. I'm saying that it's not worth putting an SSD into an HTPC because they are expensive and you wont notice a lot of the speed benefit of them in that application like you would a conventionally used pc. This is also purely from an OS perspective too, for obvious reasons. Even if SSD's were even close to large enough capacity at similar prices (which is still a long long way off of course), SSD would still be a bad idea in an HTPC used for TV/DVR given the constant writing to disk. Once smaller SSD's get down to the chump change level in price, then it could be worthwhile to throw one in an HTPC as an OS disk (and still use conventional hdd's for storage of course, to make that clear), because at that price, even though you might not notice much difference real world, you havent spent much either. Prices arent quite there yet.

All I'm saying is if someone has an SSD in hand and doesnt know what to do with it, it should go in a regular PC, not the HTPC.
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post #78 of 82 Old 05-27-2012, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by SUBCOB View Post

As I looked at my post again, I did come off a little condemning of you. My overall point to you is your running a business and although you have your opinions, but the most important thing is to give the customer what they need, not what you think they need. Everyone does different things with there HTPC, and putting it in a single category that all computers need an SSD is not good business practice. At least that is how I interpreted your posts.

Isn't that what a custom HTPC business is all about? Of course you can add or subtract ANY part of ANY build. Again, for $1/month what a SSD gives me is incredibly worth it.
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post #79 of 82 Old 05-27-2012, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by C17chief View Post

Who said anything about a spinny for < $50? I think you completely took that the wrong way. I'm saying that it's not worth putting an SSD into an HTPC because they are expensive and you wont notice a lot of the speed benefit of them in that application like you would a conventionally used pc. This is also purely from an OS perspective too, for obvious reasons. Even if SSD's were even close to large enough capacity at similar prices (which is still a long long way off of course), SSD would still be a bad idea in an HTPC used for TV/DVR given the constant writing to disk. Once smaller SSD's get down to the chump change level in price, then it could be worthwhile to throw one in an HTPC as an OS disk (and still use conventional hdd's for storage of course, to make that clear), because at that price, even though you might not notice much difference real world, you havent spent much either. Prices arent quite there yet.

All I'm saying is if someone has an SSD in hand and doesnt know what to do with it, it should go in a regular PC, not the HTPC.

Disagree again.

I don't think anyone here is advocating using JUST a SSD if you are planning on doing a lot of recording. What I think SSD proponents are advocating is adding a SSD for the OS in addition to a data drive for storage.

So again we are talking an extra $1-2 per month over the life of your HTPC for the performance gain of a SSD. Does this make sense on a $250 bottom of the barrel HTPC? Well maybe not. But most HTPCs at AVS are in the $400-$800 price range and for an extra $60 or so this is well worth it, imo.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1394442
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post #80 of 82 Old 05-27-2012, 08:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SUBCOB View Post

Did the SSD stream tester mention how many streams you can stream on a 5400rpm spinner?

The test was with a SSD for the OS/Programs and a 5400RPM drive for storage.
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post #81 of 82 Old 05-27-2012, 08:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C17chief View Post

I'm saying that it's not worth putting an SSD into an HTPC because they are expensive and you wont notice a lot of the speed benefit of them in that application like you would a conventionally used pc.

and I pointed out spinny = $60, SSD = $60... no cost difference, SSD are NOT more expensive...
Quote:
Originally Posted by C17chief View Post

Even if SSD's were even close to large enough capacity at similar prices (which is still a long long way off of course), SSD would still be a bad idea in an HTPC used for TV/DVR given the constant writing to disk.

yes, SSD's have limited writes, but so do spinny's...
with wear leveling SSD's will last a really long time even while being written to 24/7...
but yes, currently the $$/size ratio for really big (multi TB) SSD sucks...
Quote:
Originally Posted by C17chief View Post

Once smaller SSD's get down to the chump change level in price, then it could be worthwhile to throw one in an HTPC as an OS disk (and still use conventional hdd's for storage of course, to make that clear), because at that price, even though you might not notice much difference real world, you havent spent much either. Prices arent quite there yet.

assuming you are already planning on having an OS drive + a separate huge data/media drive then SSD's are already there... as they cost the same as small HDD's... therefor there is no reason not to get a SSD as the OS Drive, and it really isn't a luxury item either... ie if they cost the same, and SSD's are better in every way (not just speed), why would you even consider a spinny OS drive in a HTPC? (or anything else where you have a separate OS + data drives)

NOTE: As one wise professional something once stated, I am ignorant & childish, with a mindset comparable to 9/11 troofers and wackjob conspiracy theorists. so don't take anything I say as advice...
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post #82 of 82 Old 05-27-2012, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Somewhatlost View Post

and I pointed out spinny = $60, SSD = $60... no cost difference, SSD are NOT more expensive...

yes, SSD's have limited writes, but so do spinny's...
with wear leveling SSD's will last a really long time even while being written to 24/7...
but yes, currently the $$/size ratio for really big (multi TB) SSD sucks...

assuming you are already planning on having an OS drive + a separate huge data/media drive then SSD's are already there... as they cost the same as small HDD's... therefor there is no reason not to get a SSD as the OS Drive, and it really isn't a luxury item either... ie if they cost the same, and SSD's are better in every way (not just speed), why would you even consider a spinny OS drive in a HTPC? (or anything else where you have a separate OS + data drives)

Again. Your just flat out wrong. Do you own a single HDD? If so why? There's your reason to not bother with an SSD.

If an SSD isn't a luxury. Why have an HDD at all?
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