Are You Looking For A Less Expensive Norco 4220 / 4224 Alternative? - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 2270 Old 07-06-2012, 04:44 AM
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Originally Posted by mcturkey View Post

Thanks. 12 threads and 48GB of memory should tide me over for a bit. biggrin.gif
The PSU is propped up temporarily with foam blocks under it--wanted to get everything up and running to make sure I didn't have any DOA hardware before I set about devising a better bracket to secure it. Since I'll also need to disassemble everything to get the rack rails on the case, that will be done at the same time. Guess I have a busy weekend ahead of me wink.gif

I take the other way, make everything secure and install the motherboard/CPU/Add-on Card/memory/etc...
learn for my past experience that I fried due on short-circuit (my fault actually heheh).

48G is very big memory, you can run many VMs, by assuming utilized esxi and direct I/O(vt-d).
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post #272 of 2270 Old 07-06-2012, 05:11 AM
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Originally Posted by bima View Post

I take the other way, make everything secure and install the motherboard/CPU/Add-on Card/memory/etc...
learn for my past experience that I fried due on short-circuit (my fault actually heheh).
48G is very big memory, you can run many VMs, by assuming utilized esxi and direct I/O(vt-d).

Oh I've had my fair share of damaged and failed components over the almost 20 years I've been building computers biggrin.gif

I'm actually running Xen Cloud Platform (XCP) on this system since the licensing required for ESXi beyond 32GB is just not worth it for home use. Going to be running a number of VMs, including (hopefully), my HTPC.

I love how much quieter this thing is now with these fans in it. Part of selling my wife on the idea of this was that it would be quieter, cooler, and use less power. While I was working on it in the office, I commented on the noise level, and she turned around and looked at it, then looked at me and said, "It's actually on??"
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post #273 of 2270 Old 07-06-2012, 05:50 AM
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Originally Posted by assassin View Post

You echo many of my thoughts. Some people just seem stuck on using hardware raid arrays for htpc and thats fine I guess. But not for me.

What would you recommend for the best expandable storage solution?

I'm curious because I was looking at SAS raid solutions. Would you recommend using the sas hardware, but using JBOD with a software flex/snap raid?
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post #274 of 2270 Old 07-06-2012, 05:52 AM
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Originally Posted by mcturkey View Post

Oh I've had my fair share of damaged and failed components over the almost 20 years I've been building computers biggrin.gif

Been building almost that long. Is it just me or do motherboards and video cards fail more than any other component? I have never (knock on wood) lost a CPU, sound card, memory, or hard drive (double knock on wood).
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post #275 of 2270 Old 07-06-2012, 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted by JGFreeh View Post

Been building almost that long. Is it just me or do motherboards and video cards fail more than any other component? I have never (knock on wood) lost a CPU, sound card, memory, or hard drive (double knock on wood).

Motherboards, power supplies, and hard drives, for sure. I'd never lost a hard drive until about 8 months ago. Had three failures since then, on three different systems in the house.
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post #276 of 2270 Old 07-06-2012, 09:54 AM
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If you're not already UPS, seriously consider it. I had a number of random drive failures, while also having a lot of low voltage (brownout) situations with our power. Once I put everything with a drive or CPU on a UPS the drive failures stopped being such a recurrent issue. Not that drives haven't failed, just not as many or as often.

Shortly after going with UPSes I pulled them all apart and yanked out the piezo beepers. When shopping, look for ones that have a selectable audible warning feature. You do not want the UPS on the bedroom DVR start beeping in the middle of the night...

Then we got an automatic starting generator. You'd think, in the nation's capital they could manage power properly... but no... Some joke PEPCO stands for "Pakistan Electrical Power Company"...

Just bear in mind the batteries in UPSes are replacement items. I seem to get about 3 years out of them, on average.
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post #277 of 2270 Old 07-06-2012, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wkearney99 View Post

If you're not already UPS, seriously consider it. I had a number of random drive failures, while also having a lot of low voltage (brownout) situations with our power. Once I put everything with a drive or CPU on a UPS the drive failures stopped being such a recurrent issue. Not that drives haven't failed, just not as many or as often.
Shortly after going with UPSes I pulled them all apart and yanked out the piezo beepers. When shopping, look for ones that have a selectable audible warning feature. You do not want the UPS on the bedroom DVR start beeping in the middle of the night...
Then we got an automatic starting generator. You'd think, in the nation's capital they could manage power properly... but no... Some joke PEPCO stands for "Pakistan Electrical Power Company"...
Just bear in mind the batteries in UPSes are replacement items. I seem to get about 3 years out of them, on average.

Yeah, getting a UPS for my server rack is definitely on the list now that the collective power usage should be low enough that I don't have to shell out a ton. That said, I suspect the failures were due to the terrible condition of the wiring in the previous house we were renting - built in the 30s and as best we could tell, it had not been updated since that time.
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post #278 of 2270 Old 07-07-2012, 01:18 AM
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finally...

F0Jlq.jpg

two L5420 with 16G RAM running esxi 5 with 2HDs as a datastore.
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post #279 of 2270 Old 07-08-2012, 06:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bima View Post

finally...
F0Jlq.jpg
two L5420 with 16G RAM running esxi 5 with 2HDs as a datastore.

How's the noise?

The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man -- and give some back.

~ Swearengen
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post #280 of 2270 Old 07-08-2012, 06:32 AM
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Originally Posted by JGFreeh View Post

What would you recommend for the best expandable storage solution?
I'm curious because I was looking at SAS raid solutions. Would you recommend using the sas hardware, but using JBOD with a software flex/snap raid?

Sorry, missed your post initially.

I like a WHS2011 + FlexRaid solution personally. Or you could run Win7/8 + FlexRaid. This is an extremely versatile, flexible and inexpensive way to have a very robust and capable server for HTPC.


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post #281 of 2270 Old 07-09-2012, 11:07 AM
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I bought one of these too on Friday- emailed with Andy at TAMSolutions and he said they currently only have the Xeon version still but that's fine with me! Can't wait to get it and start modding to be quieter! Thanks for the nice find, OP!
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post #282 of 2270 Old 07-09-2012, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Litlgi74 View Post

How's the noise?

Noise is not a bugger smile.gif, except a blower fan :P

I need to lower down blower fan to ~2000RPM to make blower noise minimal.
the blower fan is cooling the pci-X/pci-e carfs and two internal mounted drive(acted as a datastorage for VM) . I install esxi on USB key

on the other side, cpu fan is another noise maker when those two CPU are working hard..

I use one PWM 60mm for back exhaust fan that connected to motherboard. the fan does make low noise on ~3000RPM(exceptable).. unless the motherboard sets a full speed... around ~6000RPM,
the power hunger including heat maker is FB-DIMM memory.!!!

total idle load is ~180 Watt with dual processor and 8 FB memory sticks.
I would take one processor off to lower down power consumption

on my T105 dual core opteron with 6G memory and 1 HD. the idle load is ~110 Watt.
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post #283 of 2270 Old 07-12-2012, 08:12 AM
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Anyone having some success with this purchase without modding the setup??

Don't make fun of me for my stupid questions!
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post #284 of 2270 Old 07-12-2012, 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by bfhancock View Post

Anyone having some success with this purchase without modding the setup??

I didn't mod the case much. I added quieter 60mm fans in the rear and added a Norco 120mm fan wall behind the drives but that's it. Runs great and exceptionally cool.
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post #285 of 2270 Old 07-12-2012, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by bfhancock View Post

Anyone having some success with this purchase without modding the setup??

Noise coming. From blower fans and Psu fan are the main bigger.
To lower down the blows noise, you can set on BIOS to handle fan speeds.
The main concern is Psu fan noise.. very loud. Psu efficiency is less than 80%. You need to use 2 psu modules. If you use only one psu module not 2 modules, this will consume more Watts.

Just my observations.
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post #286 of 2270 Old 07-12-2012, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by bima View Post

Noise coming. From blower fans and Psu fan are the main bigger.
To lower down the blows noise, you can set on BIOS to handle fan speeds.
The main concern is Psu fan noise.. very loud. Psu efficiency is less than 80%. You need to use 2 psu modules. If you use only one psu module not 2 modules, this will consume more Watts.
Just my observations.

So where are you getting your efficiency numbers for the PSU? And how does they compare to the overall power consumption of a single supply? Especially as full drive capacity is reached? I'm not arguing for them, as much as I'm not convinced a single larger supply is going to be as necessary/useful as many folks are assuming.

I'm not all that bothered by the PSU fan or side blower noise. The twin case fans are the problem, they're way too eff'ing loud. I put on a rheostat fan controller to tone down their racket. I've ordered the fan wall panel but have not yet installed it. I'm guessing the use the fan wall along with different case fans would be a better solution when noise is a concern.
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post #287 of 2270 Old 07-12-2012, 11:09 AM
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UPS delivered mine today! Got it all torn down last night- doing almost exactly the same mods as Litlgi74.

All the parts are here just need to swing by Fry's and get some brass mobo stands.

Psyched to get it up and running quiet!
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post #288 of 2270 Old 07-12-2012, 11:22 AM
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Is the PSU setup documented anywhere? I'm curious about how it decides how many PSU modules are present and how it manages them.
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post #289 of 2270 Old 07-12-2012, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by wkearney99 View Post

So where are you getting your efficiency numbers for the PSU? And how does they compare to the overall power consumption of a single supply? Especially as full drive capacity is reached? I'm not arguing for them, as much as I'm not convinced a single larger supply is going to be as necessary/useful as many folks are assuming.
I'm not all that bothered by the PSU fan or side blower noise. The twin case fans are the problem, they're way too eff'ing loud. I put on a rheostat fan controller to tone down their racket. I've ordered the fan wall panel but have not yet installed it. I'm guessing the use the fan wall along with different case fans would be a better solution when noise is a concern.

I am not arguing too:), just spread my observation and finding


the PSU is not 80+, you can check on PSU model, and compare...

This is my find-out:
each module is 500W rate (you can open the PSU case and see the interface(electronics),.
when 2 modules is active.. those modules are working together to supply "the juice" 1000W rate.
when only 1 module. there is only one active module to work, where draws more watts from the outlet (why? did not go further investigation)

you can do a simple way with your severs( if you have PSU that support reading wattage load or kill-a-watt):
try to load some HDs and run with a single PSU module or two modules, and do some tasks...

the PSU case is configure as :
1) 2 PSU module + 1 Standby = 1000W rate
2) 3 PSU module + 1 standby = 1500W rate
but... the our PSU case only support 1000W rate :P. this is why.... they covered one additional slot .

the optimal configuration is 2 modules working together biggrin.gif.

the nice thing... PSU case can send informatin viaSMBus/io2c to motherboard, for example sends query in PSU status to PSU case from motherboard biggrin.gif, neat hah...

if you follow the current trend on PSU, redundant PSU mostly have 2 slot, for example: each module is rated for 500W where the other module is on standby mode ( total is 500W, when something happens. the "smart PSU interface" will switch to the other psu module)

60mm fan is running rgghhhh 7000-10000RPM ( as I remember, you can check the fan model)
the best solution replacing the fan (PWM or not) and let motherboard control the speed.
If you have intel motherboard version, FB-DIMM generates much heat... not CPUs..

PSU fan and blower fan was buggers for me smile.gif. my current system is pretty quite... unless... I am crunching processes on some VMs... the motherboard will speed up my back fans and cpu fans (cpus fans does not generate much noise...).

to make quite on blower fan, I just set to 2000RPM where requires to dissipate heat from add-on cards and internal HDs.

installing fan wall is easy smile.gif, I just use "spacer" from broken window blinds... with double-sided tape (posted on my previous post)

the other thought:
if you follow "fan wall, please take consideration on how to pull air to outside case.
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post #290 of 2270 Old 07-12-2012, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by wkearney99 View Post

Is the PSU setup documented anywhere? I'm curious about how it decides how many PSU modules are present and how it manages them.


search on model type, the PSU case including modules are pretty old design.

if you know electronics.. cracking chips on the PSU interface module is not hard smile.gif.. just read the ICs type and pull the PDF specs.
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post #291 of 2270 Old 07-12-2012, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by bima View Post

search on model type, the PSU case including modules are pretty old design..

I did search, and didn't find the percentage you're stating. Age of the design doesn't necessarily mean it's unsuitable for the purpose. I'm all for using what's best, but when numbers get thrown around I like to actually see proof, not just speculation based on datasheet interpretations. I, too, can read schematics but that doesn't make me an EE.
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post #292 of 2270 Old 07-12-2012, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by bima View Post

the nice thing... PSU case can send informatin viaSMBus/io2c to motherboard, for example sends query in PSU status to PSU case from motherboard biggrin.gif, neat hah...

the best solution replacing the fan (PWM or not) and let motherboard control the speed.

If you have intel motherboard version, FB-DIMM generates much heat... not CPUs..

Good point regarding the memory and heat. If I can find reasonably priced modules I'd gladly go with higher density to keep the unit-count down. Anyone checked to see if multiple 4GB sticks generate twice the heat as 2GB ones?

My question is whether the fans inside the PSU are controllable now, or whether they can be replaced with ones that can. I'm not afraid of cracking a power supply to replace them, that's easy enough. But since they're removable I'd want to use whatever hotswap connector pins are already present, rather than hacking on a mess. I've yet to find documentation on the connector. I can't see the PSU control board as it's under the motherboard tray. Getting to it looks like it'd require disassembling the entire thing first.
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post #293 of 2270 Old 07-12-2012, 02:55 PM
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Who's got the whole thing disassembled? Got pictures or can you read-off model numbers/vendor info from the PSU controller board? It'd save me a ton of work trying to get to it.

Oh, and here's a tip, the recessed button controller (power, reset, psu)? DO NOT unscrew it unless you're planning on taking the whole case apart. Mine seemed to be ignoring the PS alert button so I figured it'd be easy to disassemble it a bit and see what's what. There's an in-line plug that came loose. But reconnecting it is a huge hassle. The rear metal covering the switches is part of the sheetmetal under the motherboard. You can't get to the switch without pulling QUITE A LOT of the case apart.

Or you can do what I did and bend up the cover flap over the switches and break it loose. It screws back into place easily. Seems like a bad design to make a simple switch assembly so deeply buried in the assembly process.

Meanwhile, reconnecting that PS wire was a hassle as there's NO slack in the cable. And you can't just loosen the other end as that's connected to the PSU controller and that's buried under the motherboard. Took some time and a pair of really long needle-nose pliers to get it back to where it could be reconnected. I have a special curse in mind for the engineer that implemented this crap....

So, be careful if you need to get at the rear case switches.
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post #294 of 2270 Old 07-12-2012, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by wkearney99 View Post

I did search, and didn't find the percentage you're stating. Age of the design doesn't necessarily mean it's unsuitable for the purpose. I'm all for using what's best, but when numbers get thrown around I like to actually see proof, not just speculation based on datasheet interpretations. I, too, can read schematics but that doesn't make me an EE.


here we go ( took me 10 mins to ask uncle google and make a quick summary biggrin.gif). http://www.zippy.com.tw/backend/download/download/Power/MANUAL/MyWx%20Series.pdf

here is my quick summary:
M1W4-6950P
M= N+1 / redundant N+1
1= for 1U use
W=
4=3+1 power system

6= 5V, 12V, 3.3V, 5Vsb, -5V, -12V ( ATX / EPS )
950= 950Watt
P= with PFC (without EMI filter)

efficiency: 67% typical AT 115VAC



950Watt, on our scenario, we need minimal 2 X500W without redundancy, or 2X500W + 1X500W for redundancy
correction on my previous post, 1000W should 950W....
the spec does not tell a single module usage :P... I would assume that they say "we are not supporting that" hhehe

if you track down, this model was introduced in 2004 biggrin.gif.
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post #295 of 2270 Old 07-12-2012, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by wkearney99 View Post

Good point regarding the memory and heat. If I can find reasonably priced modules I'd gladly go with higher density to keep the unit-count down. Anyone checked to see if multiple 4GB sticks generate twice the heat as 2GB ones?
My question is whether the fans inside the PSU are controllable now, or whether they can be replaced with ones that can. I'm not afraid of cracking a power supply to replace them, that's easy enough. But since they're removable I'd want to use whatever hotswap connector pins are already present, rather than hacking on a mess. I've yet to find documentation on the connector. I can't see the PSU control board as it's under the motherboard tray. Getting to it looks like it'd require disassembling the entire thing first.

using 4X4G FB-DIMM generate less heat than 8X2G FB-DIMM. the culprit is FB processor on each stick that generates much heat

fans inside PSU are not controllable. It can be replaced with low RPM ~40mm fan..
I tried to lower down fans' RPM.. but not a good solution, since need much heat to take out from inside PSU module.
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post #296 of 2270 Old 07-12-2012, 04:36 PM
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Thanks Litlgi74 for bringing this to our attentions. I just received my AMD version a couple of days ago. I put in my order for everything on your OP. Now I just have to find a place for brass mobo stands, sata cables (lots and lots of sata cables) and hopefully memorizing your steps, and more importantly duplicating them. biggrin.gif

Oh, and that little thing of getting hard drives to actually fill the thing up. I will probably have to buy one here and there.

Planning on using UnRaid on it, although I guess I could always be swayed. I will just be using it to store media and pictures. I have a WHS v1 for backing up the other computers.

Thanks Again!!! Hope you don't mind if I ask a question here or there along the way.
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post #297 of 2270 Old 07-12-2012, 07:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bima View Post

here we go ( took me 10 mins to ask uncle google and make a quick summary biggrin.gif). http://www.zippy.com.tw/backend/download/download/Power/MANUAL/MyWx%20Series.pdf
here is my quick summary:
M1W4-6950P
M= N+1 / redundant N+1
1= for 1U use
W=
4=3+1 power system
6= 5V, 12V, 3.3V, 5Vsb, -5V, -12V ( ATX / EPS )
950= 950Watt
P= with PFC (without EMI filter)
efficiency: 67% typical AT 115VAC
950Watt, on our scenario, we need minimal 2 X500W without redundancy, or 2X500W + 1X500W for redundancy
correction on my previous post, 1000W should 950W....
the spec does not tell a single module usage :P... I would assume that they say "we are not supporting that" hhehe
if you track down, this model was introduced in 2004 biggrin.gif.

I'm not overly surprised - it was not until the "80 PLUS" specification started gaining traction in 2006 that PSU efficiency started to really get looked at. That was also around the time that datacenters really started having to deal with the limits of what local power grids were able to supply, leading to a significant change towards greater server efficiency. For the really big customers, performance per watt is the most important metric by far now, so eeking out another 1-2% in PSU efficiency means they can cram a few more procs/drives in the same power envelope. I don't have a Kill-a-Watt (may pick one up this weekend), but having fully modded mine and consolidated my router onto this server as well, I'm sure I've saved a fair bit of energy having an 80 PLUS Bronze PSU in there. Unfortunately, the price of a Platinum rated one that had the necessary connections to properly support the board I went with was not going to pay for itself in saved electricity costs over the next several years. On the other hand, jumping from 67% to 80%, on top of using more efficient hardware, is going to see a $20-$30 reduction in the monthly power bill.
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post #298 of 2270 Old 07-13-2012, 05:59 AM
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Originally Posted by bima View Post

efficiency: 67% typical AT 115VAC

Well, that makes it look even worse then. Thanks for finding the info.

So this begs the question whether there are any more recent and efficient units that would still work in the existing PSU slots.

I've learned to really appreciate having redundancy, having had more than one PS fail in recent history. So being able to configure this box with redundant PSUs would be nice. But I'm not fixed on the idea. I've already ordered and received a Norco back cover for a regular PS. So if there's truly no way to make use of the redundant setup I'm prepared to abandon the idea.

I realize there are 2x redundant PSU that fit in an ATX-sized position. If I have to abandon the 1U x3 setup then I'll go that route. I'm not quite there yet.

I just want to nail down what can or can't be done with it. Any pointers to more technical info on PSU setups like the ones in there now?
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post #299 of 2270 Old 07-13-2012, 07:22 AM
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Originally Posted by mcturkey View Post

I'm not overly surprised - it was not until the "80 PLUS" specification started gaining traction in 2006 that PSU efficiency started to really get looked at. That was also around the time that datacenters really started having to deal with the limits of what local power grids were able to supply, leading to a significant change towards greater server efficiency. For the really big customers, performance per watt is the most important metric by far now, so eeking out another 1-2% in PSU efficiency means they can cram a few more procs/drives in the same power envelope. I don't have a Kill-a-Watt (may pick one up this weekend), but having fully modded mine and consolidated my router onto this server as well, I'm sure I've saved a fair bit of energy having an 80 PLUS Bronze PSU in there. Unfortunately, the price of a Platinum rated one that had the necessary connections to properly support the board I went with was not going to pay for itself in saved electricity costs over the next several years. On the other hand, jumping from 67% to 80%, on top of using more efficient hardware, is going to see a $20-$30 reduction in the monthly power bill.

totally agree ..smile.gif

when I looked the server model; this model is pretty old coming from 2006-2007 era, and believed the PSU was not "perfect" for current power usage.
some people would keep psu or using only one module (take more watts than 2 modules as I know), this is a free market... everyone can pick which is the best for his/her interests.

I just share on what I discovered , and let everyone decide.
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post #300 of 2270 Old 07-13-2012, 07:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wkearney99 View Post

Well, that makes it look even worse then. Thanks for finding the info.
So this begs the question whether there are any more recent and efficient units that would still work in the existing PSU slots.
I've learned to really appreciate having redundancy, having had more than one PS fail in recent history. So being able to configure this box with redundant PSUs would be nice. But I'm not fixed on the idea. I've already ordered and received a Norco back cover for a regular PS. So if there's truly no way to make use of the redundant setup I'm prepared to abandon the idea.
I realize there are 2x redundant PSU that fit in an ATX-sized position. If I have to abandon the 1U x3 setup then I'll go that route. I'm not quite there yet.
I just want to nail down what can or can't be done with it. Any pointers to more technical info on PSU setups like the ones in there now?

on your case, my suggestion is "go with Norco route" with a redundant s PSU server ( I guess: you need a simple modding to place redundant PSU on Norco backplate).
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