Tell Me How You Interpret This SSD Endurance Test - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 25 Old 06-01-2012, 09:29 AM - Thread Starter
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... in regards to how SSDs are used in a HTPC?

Is this a "positive" (meaning supporting their use) study?

Or is this a "negative" (meaning arguing against their use) study?

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...e-25nm-Vs-34nm





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post #2 of 25 Old 06-01-2012, 01:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Anyone?
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post #3 of 25 Old 06-01-2012, 01:54 PM
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I have no idea. I looked at the link but there's nary an explanation, just a bunch of bar charts and graphs. Spewing data without explaining it is pointless, IMO.

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post #4 of 25 Old 06-01-2012, 01:57 PM - Thread Starter
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My take is that most of the SSDs that I would use require many TiB of use (700+) before they might fail.

Which is way more than they will ever see in my HTPC.

However I could reasonably see where someone might say "all SSDs fail" and therefor your shouldn't use them.
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post #5 of 25 Old 06-01-2012, 01:58 PM
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All HDD's fail so you shouldn't use them..

So then what?

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post #6 of 25 Old 06-01-2012, 02:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

All HDD's fail so you shouldn't use them..

So then what?

It came up at another forum where they were recommending not to use the live TV buffer on the SSD and reference this study where basically "all SSDs fail and have limited writes".

I see the opposite as the amount of writes needed to fail far exceeds what I would use in the lifetime of my HTPC. So, I don't think this is a problem.
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post #7 of 25 Old 06-01-2012, 02:06 PM
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Okay. I have my Recorded TV and pause buffer set to my 1Tb 2.5" drive for space concerns, not because I might wear out the 60Gb SSD.

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post #8 of 25 Old 06-01-2012, 02:17 PM
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I'd say that's a big positive (at least for Samsung, Crucial and Intel controller SSDs, not so much for SandForce, Indilinx and JMicron). It took hundreds of terabytes written before the SSDs failed. Besides, it's an HTPC. I don't know about folks here but I don't keep irreplaceable data on my HTPC. If the SSD fails (probably after at least 2 years barring random controller failure), it's easy enough to replace it with a new one.

I recently replaced a failed OCZ Agility 2 90GB SSD (at the time, $180) with a Crucial M4 128GB SSD ($100). After 60 days of use (1,423 hours according to CrystalDiskInfo), I've used up 25 out of an estimated 3,000 PE cycles. That's approximately 3,200 GB written which translates to 53 GB/day. The SSD is the only drive on the HTPC and is used as Live TV buffer. I use a different HTPC for recorded TV. Assuming usage remains the same, it'll take around 20 years to completely run through the 128GB M4's PE cycles.

On a side note, the Intel X25-M 120GB SSD on my Windows 7 workstation has only written 2.60TB after a year and 2 month's worth of use (10,474 hours). I also have another Intel X25-M 120GB SSD used to house virtual machines (normally running 3 XP VM's at the same time) and so far, it's logged 760GB host writes after four months use (2,955 hours). That's including the occasional virtual hard disk defrag (around once every 1~2 months). Note, I don't defrag the SSD itself (that's just stupid and completely unnecessary). I only defrag the VHDs from within the client before compaction to get better compression when making backups. I used to copy the VHD to mechanical disk first and defrag the backup but the process just goes so much faster if I do the defrag and compaction on the SSD. Every time I do, though, it usually equates to 20GB of host writes per VM.

I'll quote my post from another thread regarding a similar issue (Minimum SSD size for Live TV Buffer + TV recordings ):
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilovejedd View Post

Rough calculations of SSD lifespan with NAND having an estimated 3,000 write cycles (estimated for 25nm) at 100GB host writes per day (around 12 hours/day of recorded/buffered HD video). Formula's not the most accurate but it makes for a good enough guess.

256GB
Total Host Writes: 768,000 GB or 750 TB
768,000 GB / 100 GB/day / 365 days/yr = ~21 years

128GB
Total Host Writes: 384,000 GB or 375 TB
384,000 GB / 100 GB/day / 365 days/yr = ~10.5 years

64GB
Total Host Writes: 192,000 GB or 188 TB
192,000 GB / 100 GB/day / 365 days/yr = ~5.3 years

40GB (@25nm 3,000 PE)
Total Host Writes: 120,000 GB or 117 TB
120,000 GB / 100 GB/day / 365 days/yr = ~3.3 years

40GB (@34nm 5,000 PE)
Total Host Writes: 200,000 GB or 195 TB
200,000 GB / 100 GB/day / 365 days/yr = ~5.5 years

From crazy people determined to kill their SSDs:
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...e-25nm-Vs-34nm
The Kingston SSDNow 40GB (rebadged Intel X25-V 40GB 34nm) appears to be crazy reliable. Even after 466TB written, it still passes the data retention test when SSDs with higher capacity using different controllers have already failed. The Intel 320 40GB also performed beyond expectations.

You'd likely see some random controller failure before you hit the limit of NAND endurance.

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post #9 of 25 Old 06-01-2012, 05:29 PM
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All the more reason to use them. I looked at that study when it was just getting started, and could already tell from the obscene amounts of data being written that there was no way I would kill an SSD from normal usage unless it was poorly built from the get-go.
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post #10 of 25 Old 06-01-2012, 06:47 PM
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If we are talking about SSD reliability here from a HTPC perspective, terabytes of writes are not going to be the problem. Controller reliability is more of an issue. For starters:

How many users here with SSDs in their HTPCs regularly hibernate or let their computer go to sleep? How has your experience been?

Ganesh T S
Sr. Editor, AnandTech Inc.
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post #11 of 25 Old 06-01-2012, 08:31 PM
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I sleep my PCs, I use my SSD for Live TV buffer, I build PCs without a wrist strap and I use plasma TVs for all my HTPCs. I am living dangerously.

 

 

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post #12 of 25 Old 06-02-2012, 06:10 AM
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It looks like a positive for me, but I couldn't find any read/write performance data. Maybe I didn't interpret what they were writing, but that could be a factor. It looked like most if not all lasted longer than what was expected.

Did I miss the read/write speed of the drives throughout the test?
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post #13 of 25 Old 06-02-2012, 07:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StardogChampion View Post

I sleep my PCs, I use my SSD for Live TV buffer, I build PCs without a wrist strap and I use plasma TVs for all my HTPCs. I am living dangerously.

You have a great sense of humor, the real question is do you let the girlfriend / wife/ house guest use the remote?
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post #14 of 25 Old 06-02-2012, 07:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

It came up at another forum where they were recommending not to use the live TV buffer on the SSD and reference this study where basically "all SSDs fail and have limited writes".

I see the opposite as the amount of writes needed to fail far exceeds what I would use in the lifetime of my HTPC. So, I don't think this is a problem.

Exactly how big of a difference does it make using an SSD for the live TV buffer? I don't watch much live TV, but I'm curious about the difference. I don't remember hard drives being particularly sluggish with this.
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post #15 of 25 Old 06-02-2012, 08:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by winterescape View Post

You have a great sense of humor, the real question is “do you let the girlfriend / wife/ house guest use the remote?”

The kids can teach the babysitter (and Mom when she forgets) how to use the HTPC, including the remote. I don't let my girlfriend touch the remote though .

 

 

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post #16 of 25 Old 06-02-2012, 09:01 AM
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looks like crap to me.

All SSD's will perform fine in a normal PC environment.

They should perform longer than I ever intend to keep them considering I like to upgrade in search of better performance every few years...

PC's don't usually last more than 3-5 years total and I would expect any SSD purchased and used normally to live far longer than that...


There is no conclusive real world data to be interpreted from that chart IMO.

By the time any of those drives would see significant fail issues from use the market will be offering something far better and cheaper and different and I will have moved on.

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post #17 of 25 Old 06-02-2012, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lockdown571 View Post

Exactly how big of a difference does it make using an SSD for the live TV buffer? I don't watch much live TV, but I'm curious about the difference. I don't remember hard drives being particularly sluggish with this.

The SSD makes for faster seek times but you're right, an HDD is fine for the task. The issue is mostly for folks who build an HTPC without mechanical drives (e.g. already have a primary HTPC or server that handles the actual recording and building satellite HTPCs for playback and live TV only).

Frankly, even if you leave the HTPC buffering live TV 24/7 (my mom does this, she just turns off the TV while WMC is still playing), I don't think you'll have to worry about running out of NAND PE cycles until after at least 2.5 years (@400GB/day) as long as you have an SSD that's 120GB or bigger. By that time, we'll probably have 512GB SSDs for $100-150.
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post #18 of 25 Old 12-30-2012, 06:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post

Then you don't know much about SSD at all.

Sent from my RM-820_nam_canada_246 using Board Express

I just learned in another thread that the reason above is why you should not use an SSD for the Live TV buffer. Your silly article means nothing.

 

 

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post #19 of 25 Old 12-31-2012, 06:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lockdown571 View Post


Exactly how big of a difference does it make using an SSD for the live TV buffer? I don't watch much live TV, but I'm curious about the difference. I don't remember hard drives being particularly sluggish with this.

Personally I shy away from using my SSD for timeshift aswell as it does do a lot of read/writes.

But to me the solution is really simple, just use a ramdisk for timeshifting.
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post #20 of 25 Old 01-01-2013, 08:29 AM
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SSD is highly reliable. It's proven fact.

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post #21 of 25 Old 01-01-2013, 09:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

SSD is highly reliable. It's proven fact.
There are no SSD reliability studies for SSDs in use (in regards to MTFB) for more than ~ 2 years. Their reliability beyond that is not proven. Also, recall rates and firmware issues that have plagued SSDs in the past (significantly improved now) show that MTFB has been the least of worries with SSDs.
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post #22 of 25 Old 01-01-2013, 09:37 AM
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I have an SSD over two years old working fine. It's sitting next to me in my desk. I pulled it because its a vertex 2 120GB and only sata2.

Its well over two years old and working perfectly.

I'd be happy post my dated reciept, picture of drive with matching serial # and a diagnostics utility report for any doubters.

I've already replaced it because its slow and small. I paid $259 back then. A newer faster version (vertex3)I picked up for $49 on Black Friday special.

SSD should last as long as any HDD. Anything else being suggested is BS.

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post #23 of 25 Old 01-01-2013, 03:36 PM
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My initial reaction is so what, I'll never write that much data to a SSD. Also, it would be interesting to see how long a HDD would last when exposed to the same test conditions.
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post #24 of 25 Old 01-01-2013, 04:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

I have an SSD over two years old working fine. It's sitting next to me in my desk. I pulled it because its a vertex 2 120GB and only sata2.
Its well over two years old and working perfectly.
I'd be happy post my dated reciept, picture of drive with matching serial # and a diagnostics utility report for any doubters.
I've already replaced it because its slow and small. I paid $259 back then. A newer faster version (vertex3)I picked up for $49 on Black Friday special.
SSD should last as long as any HDD. Anything else being suggested is BS.
There is a huge difference between a single SSD in one person's system and a true reliability test/study. The longest reliability studies I've seen for SSDs are over a span of 2 years. Even Google's HDD reliability study measures up to a period of 5 years. SSDs might be as reliable as HDDs long term (or even more so), but there is simply not enough data to either confirm or refute that claim.
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post #25 of 25 Old 01-01-2013, 06:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jakmal View Post

If we are talking about SSD reliability here from a HTPC perspective, terabytes of writes are not going to be the problem. Controller reliability is more of an issue. For starters:


How many users here with SSDs in their HTPCs regularly hibernate or let their computer go to sleep? How has your experience been?

My Thinkpad T420 with SSD regularly crashes going to sleep. Fortunately it always reboots with no ill effects. I suspect the Thinkpad power manager is interfering with TRIM. The SSD is a Samsung.

As for SSD reliability, there are several layers of spares, spare rows, spare blocks within a chip. Then there may be spare chip in larger sizes. Write for NAND flash is always 1 to 0. 0 to 1 always requires an erase operation. Initial state of a new NAND chip, SSD is always a field of 1s. A failure is when the storage node eventually fails to write to 0 or fails to return to 1 in an erase operation. Both in erase and write, the on chip controller (not the SSD controller) will increase the write or erase pulses until the node is correctly programmed or erased. So the SSD is approaching wear-out when the write or erase operation gets slower and slower.

Since NAND were built by the likes of Toshiba, Samsung, Sandisk since the '90's, the failure phenomenon is well understood. They also have been building SSDs for enterprise application for a long time. It is just the recent new controller entrants that are doing trial and error.
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