Why do fools insist AMD is better when its not ? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 164 Old 06-05-2012, 05:45 AM - Thread Starter
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http://www.anandtech.com/show/5906/a...builders-guide

"All the three major vendors (Intel, AMD and NVIDIA) pay quite a bit of attention to the HTPC market in their products. It is universally agreed that AMD presents some of the most economical HTPC building blocks targeted towards budget system builders. "


Really ?

I can list five important reasons why intel is a much better choice for me.

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post #2 of 164 Old 06-05-2012, 05:49 AM
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All that quote says is that AMD is cheaper...which I completely agree with. (I haven't read the article if they mention more though.) But yeah, you get what you pay for.
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post #3 of 164 Old 06-06-2012, 02:16 AM
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So what are the five reasons?
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post #4 of 164 Old 06-06-2012, 05:28 AM
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I've always, out of choice, used AMD in my builds. They may not offer the highest levels of performance that Intel chips do, but are far more cost effective, and honestly, what's the point of paying many times the price for an Intel chip that runs rings around the AMD, but you'll so rarely use all that extra power, especially in a HTPC. My main 7MC rig is built around an Athlon X2 245e, and the thing is idling at ~800Mhz using cool'n'quiet most of the time.

The other thing I like about AMD is that you're pretty much assured of a CPU upgrade path with the AMx sockets, which means you don't have to chuck out everything and start again like you often have to do with Intel.
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post #5 of 164 Old 06-06-2012, 05:47 AM
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What I think is foolish is claiming AMD or Intel is the best solution for all possible setups. For HTPC, Intel's celeron and i3 are great and reasonably priced. If you want to add light gaming without a discrete gfx card then AMD might be better and is also very competitively priced. What I really don't care about is how powerful the CPU is. They're all already overpowered for normal HTPC use anyway.
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post #6 of 164 Old 06-06-2012, 05:50 AM
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AMD isn't really cheaper anymore. For price/performance, you can't really beat the Celeron/Pentium Sandy Bridge chips. Sure, if gaming is a goal, Llano has a better GPU, but for the same money spent on Llano, you can get a G530 + a cheap AMD or NVIDIA video card and have even better performance. I used to be a big supporter of AMD, but they just haven't been all that competitive for the last couple of years.
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post #7 of 164 Old 06-06-2012, 06:24 AM
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The guys at anand are fools? ok rolleyes.gif

Honestly some of your thread titles sound like troll threads. I'm an intel fanboy. But I can still understand that llano is great for an htpc. THis is htpc use we are talking about not high end gaming. Still waiting for those 5 reasons.
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post #8 of 164 Old 06-06-2012, 06:44 AM
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AMD has hands down superior integrated graphics, intel has hands down superior integer performance, it kind of depends on your intended use. But this thread was obviously just intended to create an argument.

PS - we have pretty much far surpassed the integer performance we need for streaming, playing, recording HD video.
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post #9 of 164 Old 06-06-2012, 06:47 AM
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AMD's solution is still cheaper than intel if you plan on a 3D blu-ray system.
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post #10 of 164 Old 06-06-2012, 06:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffkro View Post

But this thread was obviously just intended to create an argument.

Yep. So far, it's not working but give it some time... smile.gif

 

 

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post #11 of 164 Old 06-06-2012, 10:48 AM
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I think AMD Llano is a reasonable choice. Just like the Intel offerings it is not perfect either.

I do disagree that AMD is still the cheaper option (even for a low cost gaming rig). You can get a G530/620 + ATI/NVidia card for the same or even less money than the Llano which also carries with it other perks as well. And if you don't need 3D or gaming then the Intel offerings are actually less.

The misconception that Intel is (much) more expensive continues to linger.


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post #12 of 164 Old 06-06-2012, 11:36 AM
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To understand the rationale behind my statement regarding AMD being economical, I would like to invite opinion on the following statements (not backed up with quantitative data right now):


1. For a given CPU performance level, AMD is cheaper than Intel

2. For a given iGPU gaming performance level, AMD is cheaper than Intel

3. For a given iGPU HTPC performance level, I will NOT make the statement that AMD is cheaper than Intel because I have not evaluated the HTPC capabilities of the Pentiums / Celerons (how do they fare with 1080p60 material HW decoding? Can they do deinterlacing of 1080i60 content? -- Llano fails in the former case ; Even assuming 1080p60 is a go with the Pentiums, 3D is a plus on the Llano side -- Whether 1080p60 is important or 3D is important is up to the system builder, and in that case I am not sure who turns out to be cheaper)

For me, 1080p60 is more important than 3D, and personally, I would recommend a HTPC based on IVB. However, as a tech journalist, it is my duty to cater to a varied interest group. There are plenty of people who want to build HTPCs based on the Llano, and the piece that the OP cites was written in order to present a summary of the options available to them. I am disappointed to see that my quote in the piece has been misinterpreted by the OP. At the minimum, I hope it is immediately obvious to the readers that the thread title 'insisting that AMD is better' is not related in any way to the article's suggestion that 'AMD is a more economical alternative'.

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post #13 of 164 Old 06-06-2012, 11:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jakmal View Post

1. For a given CPU performance level, AMD is cheaper than Intel

Can you give some examples of chip pairs where you think this one is true? I'll concede #2, but I question whether this #1 is accurate today.
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post #14 of 164 Old 06-06-2012, 11:49 AM
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You can get the Celeron Sandy Bridge for $50 on Newegg. The cheapest LLano chip is $60. Motherboards are about the same, so the value win goes to Intel, IMO.

That article wasn't written by one of the regular Anandtech writers. Perhaps it was an audition piece?
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post #15 of 164 Old 06-06-2012, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zon2020 View Post

Can you give some examples of chip pairs where you think this one is true? I'll concede #2, but I question whether this #1 is accurate today.

Considering a mixture of single and multi-threaded benchmarks, it looks like i3-2100 is an acceptable comparison to the A8-3850 (Single threaded, i3-2100 wins, while multi-threaded, A8-3850 is better)

http://www.anandtech.com/show/4448/amd-llano-desktop-performance-preview/2

On Newegg right now, i3-2100 is $120, while the A8-3850 is $110 w/o promotions and $100 after rebates, making for a $20 difference.

Maybe others can come up with a better chip pair pointing to the contrary (Intel better at a given price point wrt CPU performance), but my gut feel is that it is going to be difficult considering that we may always disagree on whether single threaded performance needs to be given more weight or multi-threaded performance is needed more..

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post #16 of 164 Old 06-06-2012, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spivonious View Post

You can get the Celeron Sandy Bridge for $50 on Newegg. The cheapest LLano chip is $60. Motherboards are about the same, so the value win goes to Intel, IMO.
That article wasn't written by one of the regular Anandtech writers. Perhaps it was an audition piece?

I have been writing at AnandTech for more than 2 years now, and I am still here to defend my piece smile.gif

Here is the cheapest Llano for $44 : https://www.superbiiz.com/detail.php?name=AD3400OJ (Edit: Add ~$2 for shipping by USPS in Superbiiz)

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post #17 of 164 Old 06-06-2012, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jakmal View Post

Considering a mixture of single and multi-threaded benchmarks, it looks like i3-2100 is an acceptable comparison to the A8-3850 (Single threaded, i3-2100 wins, while multi-threaded, A8-3850 is better)
http://www.anandtech.com/show/4448/amd-llano-desktop-performance-preview/2
On Newegg right now, i3-2100 is $120, while the A8-3850 is $110 w/o promotions and $100 after rebates, making for a $20 difference.
Maybe others can come up with a better chip pair pointing to the contrary (Intel better at a given price point wrt CPU performance), but my gut feel is that it is going to be difficult considering that we may always disagree on whether single threaded performance needs to be given more weight or multi-threaded performance is needed more..

Coincidentally, I made this post in another thread today which seems relevant to this discussion -- Post #3 in thread entitled Building 2 new HTPCs!! Advise needed

BTW, I buy my cpus at Micro Center where the i3-2100 is only $90. They don't sell the A8-3850, but the A8-3870K is $120 (same as NE).
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post #18 of 164 Old 06-06-2012, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jakmal View Post


Here is the cheapest Llano for $44 : https://www.superbiiz.com/detail.php?name=AD3400OJ (Edit: Add ~$2 for shipping by USPS in Superbiiz)

Not entirely a fair price comparison. That's an OEM chip, so you need to buy a heatsink. The G530 boxed is $35 at Micro Center.
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post #19 of 164 Old 06-06-2012, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Zon2020 View Post

Not entirely a fair price comparison. That's an OEM chip, so you need to buy a heatsink. The G530 boxed is $35 at Micro Center.
You have a very good point. Also, IMO comparing an in-store only price to an online price is not a fair comparison either. A very large segment of the population cannot get that price because they do not live near a Micro Center whereas everyone in the US can get the online price.
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post #20 of 164 Old 06-06-2012, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by wsume99 View Post

You have a very good point. Also, IMO comparing an in-store only price to an online price is not a fair comparison either. A very large segment of the population cannot get that price because they do not live near a Micro Center whereas everyone in the US can get the online price.

you can still buy it for $45 shipped with cooler at Directron, $47 at Amazon.
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post #21 of 164 Old 06-06-2012, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Zon2020 View Post

you can still buy it for $45 shipped with cooler at Directron, $47 at Amazon.
I am aware of that. I'm not trying to argue that one chip is better than the other but instead just pointing out the price and availability need to be considered when doing a comparison.

For me personally I don't really care which one has the better benchmark or highest performance becuase both solutions are more than enough for what I need in my HTPC. So in that case it's just a matter of which one is the cheapest. That's why I have a SB pentium in my HTPC now - because it was the cheapest solution for my needs.
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post #22 of 164 Old 06-06-2012, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Zon2020 View Post

you can still buy it for $45 shipped with cooler at Directron, $47 at Amazon.

Last week it was $39 shipped at Superbiiz.

I think what's "cheapest" is always going to depend on what you want to do. Non-3D, non-1080p60, play HD video, audio, TV, music, surf then all you need is the G530. Add 3D then AMD has the cheaper solution. Want to game, it depends on what games -- maybe Intel+dGPU or AMD A8. Transcoding, serving lots of extenders, need it to be quiet, need it to be fanless, need it to run X, Y, Z, well then who knows.

I don't think benchmarks matter a whole lot in HTPC. It's more pass/fail. If two CPUs both work for the HTPC features desired, the faster one isn't necessarily going to provide a better experience.

The quote in the first post says (underline provided by me) "AMD presents some of the most economical HTPC building blocks". Yes, they provide some and so does Intel. Depending on what you're doing, maybe the Raspberry Pi or the AllWinner A10 does too. The article was about Llano and what it can do. I don't see what the big deal is.

 

 

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post #23 of 164 Old 06-06-2012, 01:56 PM
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Personally the A6 is as low as I would go personally on any CPU. I think the bump up from the A4 to the A6 is definitely worth the small amount. The A4 is just too underpowered for me and I worry what it will and won't be able to do a few years from now.


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post #24 of 164 Old 06-06-2012, 02:00 PM
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Evidently the edit button on AVS doesn't work yet.

So for me the G530+Video card is pretty close to the A6 as far as price is concerned.

BTW the A8 runs way too hot to use in an ITX enclosure even with an aftermarket CPU cooler (I have tried 3 different ones)


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post #25 of 164 Old 06-06-2012, 02:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

Personally the A6 is as low as I would go personally on any CPU. I think the bump up from the A4 to the A6 is definitely worth the small amount. The A4 is just too underpowered for me and I worry what it will and won't be able to do a few years from now.

+1. A6-3500 ($70) also gets you the better GPU (HD6530) over the A4 which if you're buying Llano is (or should be) the whole point.

One expense that I personally will add to the AMD side is an aftermarket cooler. While the stock Intel HSF is tolerable, I find the the AMD stock HSF to be intolerable. That might just be me but when I am figuring out what and how much, it's a must have in the budget.

 

 

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post #26 of 164 Old 06-06-2012, 02:12 PM
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I picked up a G620 at MicroCenter about 12 days ago for $49 plus tax. Newegg had the G530 for the same price so I thought I'd take a road trip since I had the day off. The nearest MicroCenter is almost an hour away so after paying for gas, sales tax, and two hours out of my day I didn't realize more than about $6-8 in savings over Newegg's price for the same CPU (they offered free shipping). Too bad MC doesn't ship or I'd buy more from them. It's just not convenient to shop there from my location.

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post #27 of 164 Old 06-06-2012, 02:19 PM
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I went through this when I upgraded my e-350m htpc, which sees light gaming duty. g530 plus ~40 dollar dGPU vs A6-3500. I had a decent aftermarket AMD cooler on hand and also figured my existing Win7 install would play nicer without a full reinstall, so I went AMD. It also undervolts really well.
Llano prices and promotions have been getting even better with Trinity coming. Bare A8 3850 for $90 at NE with a game coupon.

Quicksync is Intel's ace in the hole if you need it though.
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post #28 of 164 Old 06-08-2012, 08:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcturkey View Post

AMD isn't really cheaper anymore. For price/performance, you can't really beat the Celeron/Pentium Sandy Bridge chips. Sure, if gaming is a goal, Llano has a better GPU, but for the same money spent on Llano, you can get a G530 + a cheap AMD or NVIDIA video card and have even better performance. I used to be a big supporter of AMD, but they just haven't been all that competitive for the last couple of years.

This +1

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post #29 of 164 Old 06-08-2012, 09:35 AM
 
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AMD is just in a little funk right now, they will recover with the bulldozer update and Trinity.

Llano, is the best choice for an HTPC where a dedicated GPU is not needed, Intel does not come close. AMD chips are very good, I have an overclocked 1055t in my main rig and it is blazing fast. In my htpc I have the celeron, which was a great choice for me since I had a spare graphics card...

The point is, Intels lowliest chip or AMD's lowliest chip is all you need for an HTPC or indeed any computer for 90% of people. Llano will give you less heat and allow you to build in a smaller case with better graphics than a similar Intel build. We are at a point now that most chips will give a person the usability they need, theres no lag when browsing the web or watching HD. The high end chips aren't needed for anyone except gamers and people that do very intensive computer stuff. It's almost a moot point arguing who is the fastest in terms of an htpc, power and heat are bigger issues.
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post #30 of 164 Old 06-08-2012, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matteos View Post

AMD is just in a little funk right now, they will recover with the bulldozer update and Trinity.
Llano, is the best choice for an HTPC where a dedicated GPU is not needed, Intel does not come close. AMD chips are very good, I have an overclocked 1055t in my main rig and it is blazing fast. In my htpc I have the celeron, which was a great choice for me since I had a spare graphics card...
The point is, Intels lowliest chip or AMD's lowliest chip is all you need for an HTPC or indeed any computer for 90% of people. Llano will give you less heat and allow you to build in a smaller case with better graphics than a similar Intel build. We are at a point now that most chips will give a person the usability they need, theres no lag when browsing the web or watching HD. The high end chips aren't needed for anyone except gamers and people that do very intensive computer stuff. It's almost a moot point arguing who is the fastest in terms of an htpc, power and heat are bigger issues.

I don't care how much you've overclocked that six core Phenom, it's still a lot slower than a $150 i5-3450, and the 3450 will use a fraction of the power and generate a fraction of the heat. And you don't need to add a graphics card with the i5. And the more you overclock it to try to catch up, the more power it uses and the more heat it generates.

I don't think there is a single situation in which a Llano build will use less power or produce less heat than a similar Intel build. On what do you base your contrary claim?

Assassin has been reporting his efforts to deal with 70c temps in trying to build an A8 ITX system, no matter which cooler he uses.

See, for example:

610
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