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post #1 of 38 Old 06-15-2012, 06:07 AM - Thread Starter
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When ripping Blu-Rays using MakeMKV I will usually just select the main title, HD-Audio and all english subititles and forced subtitles. I'm wondering if in addition to HD-Audio I should also be selecting the DTS 3/2+1 core audio track that is right below the HD-Audio track.

For playing the movie on my home theater I bitstream the HD-Audio directly to my AVR and everything is perfect. But I'm wondering if I end up playing the movie on just my laptop or PC and not on my home theater If I shouldn't have also selected the core audio track as well? If I want to play the movie on both my home theater and my laptop should I be selecting both HD-Audio and core DTS 3/2+1 audio?
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post #2 of 38 Old 06-15-2012, 07:36 AM
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Rather I'm doing it right or wrong I don't know, but I do it the same as you only I select all the different audio tracks.
So I rip the main title-->all audio tracks-->forced sub titles.
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post #3 of 38 Old 06-15-2012, 07:56 AM
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It is my understanding that you need both if you aren't decoding the MA track. I always grab both the HD and SD audio so if I want to playback on a device that doesn't support the HD, I can.

BTW, anleva, are you using MadVR now? I still haven't verified those other settings you were asking about.

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post #4 of 38 Old 06-15-2012, 11:28 AM
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I generally rip with just the HD audio and forced subtitles. When I stream the mkv file to the PC in the family room that only outputs stereo, the audio is automatically converted to match the output to the audio device, which, in this case, is the stereo speakers in the display. I've seen no reason to bloat the mkv file with extraneous audio tracks that really aren't needed.
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post #5 of 38 Old 06-15-2012, 11:30 AM
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The Captain has spoken.

Don't make fun of me for my stupid questions!
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post #6 of 38 Old 06-15-2012, 11:55 AM
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Captain is right .. I just select the HD audio tracks and it gets converted to stereo

"Man, I told you we shouldn't have shot Niedermeyer"

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post #7 of 38 Old 06-15-2012, 12:43 PM
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Can I get some clarification on whether or not you need the core track in addition to True HD using MakeMKV? This would be in regard to any playabck device that has no TrueHD capability- only AC3 (Dolby Digital).

A year or so back I read on the MakeMKV forums, for DTS-MA you only need the HD track as it already contains the core which can be played back by non-DTS-MA devices. For TrueHD you need both the HD and Core track selected as dolby does not use the same method DTS does in being able to playback the core from the HD track.

Here's an example linked from the MakeMKV forums.

I have been doing the above method- for DTS only selecting the DTS HD track, and for Dolby selecting both HD and Core track. I never tested whether or not you need the core for Dolby in addition to the HD, but I was simply adding it in case I ever was in a situation that needed it.

However, according to the posts above, it seems that the core + TrueHD is not needed for playback on a device that has no TrueHD capability. Is this true?
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post #8 of 38 Old 06-15-2012, 03:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by captain_video View Post

I generally rip with just the HD audio and forced subtitles. When I stream the mkv file to the PC in the family room that only outputs stereo, the audio is automatically converted to match the output to the audio device, which, in this case, is the stereo speakers in the display. I've seen no reason to bloat the mkv file with extraneous audio tracks that really aren't needed.

That's what I've been doing as well. Just ripping the HD audio and trying to avoid ripping extraneous stuff. . So just ripping HD audio will still allow you to even copy the file to a device that doesn't support HD audio (a laptop) and it will still play in stereo without ripping the core track as well (both DTS and Dolby)?
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post #9 of 38 Old 06-15-2012, 03:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

It is my understanding that you need both if you aren't decoding the MA track. I always grab both the HD and SD audio so if I want to playback on a device that doesn't support the HD, I can.
BTW, anleva, are you using MadVR now? I still haven't verified those other settings you were asking about.

I set it up to let me use either MadVR or XBMC native playback. Default XBMC but can open in MPC-HC utilizing MadVR as well.
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post #10 of 38 Old 06-15-2012, 03:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anleva View Post

That's what I've been doing as well. Just ripping the HD audio and trying to avoid ripping extraneous stuff. . So just ripping HD audio will still allow you to even copy the file to a device that doesn't support HD audio (a laptop) and it will still play in stereo without ripping the core track as well (both DTS and Dolby)?
I rip all of my Blu-Ray discs to mkv files on my primary PC with just the HD audio tracks and forced subtitles selected and nothing else. After they're ripped I transfer them over to my server. Before I delete the mkv files from my PC I play them back using VLC Media Player on my PC to make sure there aren't any glitches in the ripped file. They all play back fine in stereo, even though I only selected the HD audio track for ripping. My PC isn't set up for either HD audio format or even AC-3 so all it can output is plain old stereo. I have yet to encounter a single ripped Blu-Ray that I wasn't able to play back in stereo, and I've ripped around 400-500 discs so far.
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post #11 of 38 Old 06-15-2012, 03:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by captain_video View Post

I rip all of my Blu-Ray discs to mkv files on my primary PC with just the HD audio tracks and forced subtitles selected and nothing else. After they're ripped I transfer them over to my server. Before I delete the mkv files from my PC I play them back using VLC Media Player on my PC to make sure there aren't any glitches in the ripped file. They all play back fine in stereo, even though I only selected the HD audio track for ripping. My PC isn't set up for either HD audio format or even AC-3 so all it can output is plain old stereo. I have yet to encounter a single ripped Blu-Ray that I wasn't able to play back in stereo, and I've ripped around 400-500 discs so far.

Perfect, thank you for the clarification!
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post #12 of 38 Old 06-15-2012, 04:32 PM
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Do the DD 5.1 or dts 5.1 lossy tracks playback?

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post #13 of 38 Old 06-15-2012, 07:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

It is my understanding that you need both if you aren't decoding the MA track.

If you mean DTS-HD Master Audio, then, this is incorrect. DTS-HD Master Audio/High Resolution Audio includes DTS as the core. If the decoder does not support DTS-HD, then it just grabs the core DTS and decodes/bitstreams it. On the other hand, you will need both TrueHD and DD for the best compatibility (well, decoding TrueHD and re-encoding to DD on the fly is possible, though). That's an advantage of DTS-HD MA over TrueHD.

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post #14 of 38 Old 06-15-2012, 07:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

If you mean DTS-HD Master Audio, then, this is incorrect. DTS-HD Master Audio/High Resolution Audio includes DTS as the core. If the decoder does not support DTS-HD, the it just grabs the core DTS and decodes/bitstreams it. On the other hand, you will need both TrueHD and DD for the best compatibility (well, decoding TrueHD and re-encoding to DD on the fly is possible, though). That's an advantage of DTS-HD MA over TrueHD.

+1. That has been my experience as well.
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post #15 of 38 Old 06-15-2012, 07:07 PM
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Cool, so then what I was doing is correct. Thank you!
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post #16 of 38 Old 06-16-2012, 03:29 PM
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So while we are on the subject of ripping Blu-Ray to MKVs, I have a few questions and concerns that I can use some help with.

HTPC with ATI 6750 video capable of Bitstreaming, all connected with HDMI to my Receiver.

My current HTPC has 16 TB of space, but with about 400+ blu-ray movies ripped with anydvd-hd into ISO format, I have quickly run out of space. I had thought about going the route of building a server, but recently lost my job so money is tight right not. This made me think about going the MKV route.

So I tested two movies to try to figure it out, sex and the city 1 and 2 because part 1 contains Dolby True HD and part contains DTS-HD.

So when I normally play the ISOs, Media Browser, to Totalmedia 5 in Windows Media Center, I get the correct audio, my denon 3311 displays either Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD MA, and total media 5 displays Dolby TrueHD Pass Through or DTS-HD MSTR pass Through. Please refer to PICs 1,2,3,4.
Again this is when I mount ISO and play them in the totalmedia plug in for WMC.

My issues occurs when I try to rip to MKV.
So i choose only the movie, the HD audio file and english subtitles in MKV, Please refer to PIC 7

When I play them in TotalMedia 5 plugin for WMC, my avr shows the correct HD status, again refer to PICS 1 and 2,

However, totalmedia no longers displays either Dolby TrueHD Pass Through or DTS-HD MSTR pass Through, but instead displays Dolby TrueHD or just DTS. Please refer to PICs 5 and 6.

So am I still getting HD audio even though totalmedia no longer says pass through and doesn't state DTS-HD MSTR like it does with ISO files?

Hopefully I was able to convey my issue clearly enough that it can be understood, let me know if i can clear any confusion. Thanks for any help or suggestions.

PIC 1 AVR DTS HD ISO and MKV.JPG 1685k .JPG file
PIC 2 AVR Dolby HD ISO and MKV.JPG 1519k .JPG file
PIC 3 ISO Totalmedia Dolby HD.JPG 3172k .JPG file
PIC 4 ISO Totalmedia DTS HD.JPG 3033k .JPG file
PIC 5 MKV Dolby HD.JPG 3311k .JPG file
PIC 6 MKV DTS.JPG 3121k .JPG file
PIC 7 Sex and the City 1 TrueHD.png 130k .png file
Attached Images
File Type: jpg PIC 1 AVR DTS HD ISO and MKV.JPG (1.65 MB, 35 views)
File Type: jpg PIC 2 AVR Dolby HD ISO and MKV.JPG (1.48 MB, 19 views)
File Type: jpg PIC 3 ISO Totalmedia Dolby HD.JPG (3.10 MB, 9 views)
File Type: jpg PIC 4 ISO Totalmedia DTS HD.JPG (2.96 MB, 8 views)
File Type: jpg PIC 5 MKV Dolby HD.JPG (3.23 MB, 8 views)
File Type: jpg PIC 6 MKV DTS.JPG (3.05 MB, 8 views)
File Type: png PIC 7 Sex and the City 1 TrueHD.png (130.1 KB, 16 views)

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post #17 of 38 Old 06-17-2012, 07:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by khalid7412002 View Post

So i choose only the movie, the HD audio file and english subtitles in MKV, Please refer to PIC 7
When I play them in TotalMedia 5 plugin for WMC, my avr shows the correct HD status, again refer to PICS 1 and 2,
However, totalmedia no longers displays either Dolby TrueHD Pass Through or DTS-HD MSTR pass Through, but instead displays Dolby TrueHD or just DTS. Please refer to PICs 5 and 6.
So am I still getting HD audio even though totalmedia no longer says pass through and doesn't state DTS-HD MSTR like it does with ISO files?

 

Yes, TMT displays:

 

- "DTS-HD MSTR / Dolby TrueHD Pass Through" for a disc

- "DTS-HD MSTR / Dolby TrueHD"  for a MKV

 

But, as long as your AVR displays "DTS-HD MSTR / DOLBY TrueHD" logo, you are getting the same HD audio.

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post #18 of 38 Old 06-17-2012, 08:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

Yes, TMT displays:

- "DTS-HD MSTR / Dolby TrueHD Pass Through" for a disc
- "DTS-HD MSTR / Dolby TrueHD"  for a MKV

But, as long as your AVR displays "DTS-HD MSTR / DOLBY TrueHD" logo, you are getting the same HD audio.

Thank you so much for your quick response.

One last concern is when TMT displays just "DTS" (PIC 6), yet receiver displays DTS-HD MSTR (PIC 1), is there any reason for concern there or am I still getting the same HD as with an ISO?

Again, thank you for your quick response and clarifying advice.

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post #19 of 38 Old 06-17-2012, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by khalid7412002 View Post


Thank you so much for your quick response.
One last concern is when TMT displays just "DTS" (PIC 6), yet receiver displays DTS-HD MSTR (PIC 1), is there any reason for concern there or am I still getting the same HD as with an ISO?
Again, thank you for your quick response and clarifying advice.

 

Well, if AVR says DTS-HD MSTR, then it's DTS-HD MSTR, not the core DTS. So you shouldn't worry.

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post #20 of 38 Old 06-18-2012, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

Well, if AVR says DTS-HD MSTR, then it's DTS-HD MSTR, not the core DTS. So you shouldn't worry.

Thanks again for your input.

However, I have decided to abandon the MKV route simple because of forced subtitles and hassle in trying to set them up.

I tried a few movies that had parts where a foreign language were spoken, Angels and Demons about 4 minutes into the movie and noticed that subtitles were not coming on unless I manually selected the second set of subtitles,which I presume was the part that Is supposed to come on in movie where a foreign language is spoken. I also found that in order for the subtitles to come on, I had to default the subtitles to always be on. This lost the WAF for me since picking the correct set of subtitles would be a hassle and ruin the movie experience.

I tried the final MKV in xbmc, totalmedia 5 and neither of them would automatically force subtitles in the foreign part unless I had already enabled the correct subtitle track.

So then I began my search for a method to keep the ISO format but strip the unwanted junk like trailers, other languages, etc and I found this guide that I have tried on a few movies with subtitles and it works perfectly fine. Plays the subtitles for foreign parts even if subtitles are off by default.

I have test the size difference against MKV and they come in almost exactly the same in size after stripping unnecessary stuff. Another plus for me personally is that is that it retains the ISO format, which I have perfected for the WAF and so nothing changes, I just get more space.

The guide is linked below.
http://forum.slysoft.com/showthread.php?t=11770

In step 1, when u download eac3to, unzip it to your program files, and make sure that the file name is "eac3to" and nothing else. makes finding it in CMD easier.

Again, I have tested this method with about 6 movies now and they play just like before with the 1:1 ISO of my blu-ray disks, but it goes directly into the movie and I save a ton of space.

Let me know if I can help with any questions should anyone want to try this method.

Take care

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post #21 of 38 Old 06-18-2012, 09:32 PM
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I guess there is an all-in-one program, called Clown_BD, for this purpose (a front end of eac3to, TSmuxer and imgburn).

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post #22 of 38 Old 06-19-2012, 03:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by khalid7412002 View Post

I tried the final MKV in xbmc, totalmedia 5 and neither of them would automatically force subtitles in the foreign part unless I had already enabled the correct subtitle track.

Sorry khalid, but your observations on XBMC are wrong and possibly everything to do with MakeMKV incorrectly ripping and flagging the file. XBMC, Media Portal and standalone mpc-hc all display 'forced' subtitles, where the flag in the mkv container is correctly set. What you should do firstly is check that MakeMKV has set the flag correctly during the rip - several users have already indicated this not to be the case.

To check open mkvmerge (part of the mkvtoolnix package) go to File\Header Editor and open the file, under subtitles choose your expected 'forced' stream and check whether the 'forced' flag has been set, if not just change the header to 'yes' and save.

Other way check with mediainfo, then if not saved follow instructions as above to correct.
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post #23 of 38 Old 06-19-2012, 06:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steelman1991 View Post

Sorry khalid, but your observations on XBMC are wrong and possibly everything to do with MakeMKV incorrectly ripping and flagging the file. XBMC, Media Portal and standalone mpc-hc all display 'forced' subtitles, where the flag in the mkv container is correctly set. What you should do firstly is check that MakeMKV has set the flag correctly during the rip - several users have already indicated this not to be the case.
To check open mkvmerge (part of the mkvtoolnix package) go to File\Header Editor and open the file, under subtitles choose your expected 'forced' stream and check whether the 'forced' flag has been set, if not just change the header to 'yes' and save.
Other way check with mediainfo, then if not saved follow instructions as above to correct.

In addition to setting the forced flag in mkvmerge, do you also need to set the forced track as default? Do you also need to 'enable subtitles' in XBMC to have it show or by setting it to forced will it show regardless of whether 'enable subtitles' in XBMC is toggled on?

Thanks
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post #24 of 38 Old 06-19-2012, 06:21 AM
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I was under the impression that the standard/core audio track was included in the HD audio track, but I've been selecting the standard audio track (the one nested under the HD option) anyway... just in case.

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post #25 of 38 Old 06-19-2012, 08:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anleva View Post

In addition to setting the forced flag in mkvmerge, do you also need to set the forced track as default? Do you also need to 'enable subtitles' in XBMC to have it show or by setting it to forced will it show regardless of whether 'enable subtitles' in XBMC is toggled on?
Thanks

No its sufficient to have only the 'forced' flag set. No - leave subtitles off and xbmc will automatically recognise the 'forced' flag and display the subtitles.
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post #26 of 38 Old 06-19-2012, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steelman1991 View Post

Sorry khalid, but your observations on XBMC are wrong and possibly everything to do with MakeMKV incorrectly ripping and flagging the file. XBMC, Media Portal and standalone mpc-hc all display 'forced' subtitles, where the flag in the mkv container is correctly set. What you should do firstly is check that MakeMKV has set the flag correctly during the rip - several users have already indicated this not to be the case.
To check open mkvmerge (part of the mkvtoolnix package) go to File\Header Editor and open the file, under subtitles choose your expected 'forced' stream and check whether the 'forced' flag has been set, if not just change the header to 'yes' and save.
Other way check with mediainfo, then if not saved follow instructions as above to correct.

thanks for the clarifying comments.

So when you say, "choose your expected forced stream," how would I determine which is the forced stream when there are multiple subtitle tracks?

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post #27 of 38 Old 06-19-2012, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by khalid7412002 View Post

thanks for the clarifying comments.
So when you say, "choose your expected forced stream," how would I determine which is the forced stream when there are multiple subtitle tracks?

Sorry don't have an answer to that one - other than playing the file and checking the various subtitle tracks - they will have an order in playback (1,2,3 etc), that will correspond to the subtitle tracks in mkvmerge/header editor. I don't use MakeMKV personally to rip I use AnotherEAC3to GUI.
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post #28 of 38 Old 06-19-2012, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mesasone View Post

I was under the impression that the standard/core audio track was included in the HD audio track, but I've been selecting the standard audio track (the one nested under the HD option) anyway... just in case.

On the disc, the core audio track is stored as the difference between it and the lossless track (to save space).

However, MKV does not support that kind of "compression". MKV needs the full audio track, so if you select both core and lossless audio tracks, your MKV will have two complete audio tracks.
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post #29 of 38 Old 06-20-2012, 12:58 AM
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The "core" in "TrueHD / AC3" and DTS-HD are different conceptually.

 

- "TrueHD / AC3": The stream includes both TrueHD frames and AC3 frames alternately. TrueHD and AC3 are independent of each other, however. All BD TrueHD streams are of this type. Any decent splitter / BD navigator should be able to extract the AC3 stream from it (in case that, for example, your AVR supports only AC3).

 

- TrueHD: This does not includes AC3 frames. Found in most MKVs because "TrueHD / AC3" is not supported by mkvmerge (this post) or MakeMKV (it is supported by SolveigMM).

 

- DTS-HD MA/HRA: The stream always consists of the core DTS and extension data. Every DTS decoder (should) supports the core DTS, so you don't have to make a seperate DTS stream in MKV for backwards compatibility with existing DTS decoders.

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post #30 of 38 Old 06-20-2012, 02:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

(it is supported by SolveigMM).

You should however never create a MKV file with such a combined TrueHD/AC3 stream inside, because it'll most certainly cause issues during playback.
If you want to preserve TrueHD and AC3 in a MKV, make it two audio streams. smile.gif

Otherwise, listen to renethx, he outlined the difference above pretty clearly.
DTS-HD acts like jim2100 described, it contains a "core" track and the HD part is the "difference" from the core to the full lossless part. You can also store it in a MKV exactly like this.
TrueHD however is a completely lossless codec, it has no "core", on Blu-rays they just added the AC3 stream for compatibility, it is however not required at all for the TrueHD itself.
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