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post #61 of 78 Old 06-18-2012, 01:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post


720p60 has 60 frames (not fields) per second. You will loose half the resolution if the desktop refresh rate is 30 Hz (although you may not notice it).

The 1920x1080 setting in Intel graphics lists only lists rates or 29 Hz or 30 Hz.

I'm confused & concerned now. There are many, many threads & postings on this forum saying that all you need to use is Intel integrated graphics to handle HD video. It will handle everything up to 1080p.

But now I find out that with 720p it will drop half the frames. What did I miss along the way? Does this mean I really do need a graphics card despite most of what I've read?
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post #62 of 78 Old 06-18-2012, 02:34 AM
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Precisely what's your display device (model number)? AVR (model number)?


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post #63 of 78 Old 06-18-2012, 03:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by renethx View Post

There are lots of pictures and posts. Here is a quick summary of my own. smile.gif

Not quite sure why you keep harping on the pictures. The data is there in the pictures (CPU usage) which is why they are posted.
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Originally Posted by renethx View Post

Summary of Intel iGPU + XBMC

1. Intel iGPU's decoder and deinterlacer are broken in XBMC so that you have to disable DXVA2.
2. Then the video playback is completely in software mode and PQ is identical no matter what GPU you use, Intel, AMD, NVIDIA. Decoding is done by CPU and all DI/post-processing tasks are done by CPU (maybe pixel shaders of GPU) with XBMC's own algorithms.
3. As a result, you will see higher CPU usage than DXVA2 mode. I saw at HD AVC video playback with Celeron G530 2.4GHz,

- ~10% with DXVA2 on (often with heavy pixelation, that's the reason why DXVA2 has to be off)
- 40%-60% CPU usage with DXVA2 off

Deinterlacing is poorer than DXVA2 mode (at least in benchmarks) and often results in stuttering. Read also

- DI in DXVA2
- DI in non-DXVA2.

I am pretty uninspired by using benchmarks to show the differences in perceived PQ. Also I experience absolutely no stuttering and use the Intel iGPU every single day with XBMC with absolutely no issues.
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Originally Posted by renethx View Post

So the conclusion is pretty clear (to me smile.gif ): avoid Intel iGPU for XBMC. Llano (I recommend A6-3500) is a better choice (or add a discrete card for the best PQ).

I don't agree at all with this statement. The Intel iGPU is just fine for XBMC and I don't see what real world benefit the Llano or ATI card offers for most users in this forum.

Also let's be clear that with interlaced movies we are talking about 5% or less than all available movies. For 1080p/720p (the other 95+%) the de-interlacer isn't even part of the discussion. And as I have shown you can use the internal de-interlacer of XBMC for playback of most of those interlaced movies/shows if needed and the Intel CPU has plenty of horsepower.

My testing of WMC, XBMC, MPC-HC, Madvr and MPC-HC showed me no discernible difference in perceived PQ to my eyes and those who I showed the different options to when I tested. XBMC not only works with the Intel iGPU but as I have shown works extremely well. There are lots of users on AVS and now even over at the XBMC forums who use it as well. Some of these reports just weren't correct which was the whole point of this thread.


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post #64 of 78 Old 06-18-2012, 04:47 AM
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Yup, your disagreement is expected as usual. smile.gif

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

I don't see what real world benefit the Llano or ATI card offers for most users in this forum.

 

Advantages of AMD A6-3500 over Intel Celeron/Pentium processor:

 

- 3D ready

- madVR ready (well, except for 720/1080p60, formats found in camcorders)

- 23Hz refresh rate closest to 23.976Hz among all vendors

- Working full/limited RGB levels

- Better compatibility with XBMC (works whether DXVA2 is on or off). I just looked at XBMC Community Forum and found that A6-3500 is so popular in the community, that is unexpectedly surprising. smile.gif

 

Disadvantages:

 

None. Well, a couple of expected reactions are:

 

- Q1: Llano is power hungry.

- A1: This is totally wrong as far as A6-3500 is concerned. Compare the DC power draw:

 

  A6-3500 Pentium G620
Idle 20W 21W
DXVA video playback 29W 28W

 

A lot of XBMC users are building silent systems using A6-3500.

 

- Q2: AMD driver is more problem-prone.

- A2: Personally I haven't seen a problem for a long time. From the number of satisfied users of AMD graphics cards, I don't think AMD driver is any worse than Intel's. Recently AMD quit updating the driver monthly, that I welcome because the driver will be more stable.


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post #65 of 78 Old 06-18-2012, 04:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

Yup, your disagreement is expected as usual. smile.gif

Your conclusion was that the Intel iGPU basically doesn't work (stuttering, worse PQ, markedly increased CPU utilization, etc) for XBMC. Which hasn't been at all my (or others) experience. In fact, even the XBMC forums which once upon a time were incredibly anti-Intel now have more and more people using Intel iGPU with no issues as well. Show me where I am wrong.

Edit: BTW I used to use Media Browser almost exclusively and now I use XBMC almost exclusively each and every day.


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post #66 of 78 Old 06-18-2012, 06:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

No problem in bitstreaming HD audio with Celeron G530+XBMC (I tested). Bitstreaming audio uses very little CPU time. I see there are tons of foolish claimants on the Internet. smile.gif

Thanks for the information. I agree with the foolish claimants for sure. Most of the time, people are just misinformed and you say "I tested X and it did Y" and reasonable people will say, "ah, ok, good to know thanks". But, then there's the "theorists" who, while they've never tried it, what they "think" might happen is much more important than what actually happens. Sure. sometimes environments and results are different, but with this, the hardware either allows bitstreaming or it does not. Anything else is a software issue.

 

 

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post #67 of 78 Old 06-18-2012, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by assassin View Post

Edit: BTW I used to use Media Browser almost exclusively and now I use XBMC almost exclusively each and every day.
Interesting, you previously came across as pretty hardcore MB, why the switch? I have tried MB several times over the past few years and I always find myself going back to XBMC. I was always left wondering if I was missing something since so many people praised MB but I still find XBMC to be superior (for my needs at least).
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post #68 of 78 Old 06-18-2012, 07:21 AM
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Having looked at the latest stable XBMC, if it weren't for the CableCard integration in WMC, I'd be switching to XBMC, today. Even just for the weather app smile.gif.

But, alas, WAF and KAF is high with WMC so I am not messing around with that -- except on my office PC.

 

 

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post #69 of 78 Old 06-18-2012, 08:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by wsume99 View Post

Interesting, you previously came across as pretty hardcore MB, why the switch? I have tried MB several times over the past few years and I always find myself going back to XBMC. I was always left wondering if I was missing something since so many people praised MB but I still find XBMC to be superior (for my needs at least).

I like both an awful lot. I go through spurts as to what I use day to day.


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post #70 of 78 Old 06-18-2012, 09:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

Precisely what's your display device (model number)? AVR (model number)?

The HDTV is a Sony KDF-E42A10. The AVR is an Onkyo, however the HDMI does not go through the AVR because it does not have any HDMI inputs. I do use an HDMI switch box between the HTPC and the HDTV because the HDTV has only 1 HDMI input.

Intel graphics recognizes the display as a Sony TV. Since it's a 720p display I have the Intel resolution set to 1280x720. I keep getting a small notification in the lower right corner of the screen that I am not using the optimum resolution & I should change it to 1920x1080. Obviously this is not correct. I have tried 1920x1080 & it does work, but I prefer the native 1280x720 because it looses less screen material due to the overscan. IOW I can see more of the Windows icons.

Just a thought - if Intel graphics recognized a different display would it perhaps allow 59/60 Hz with 1920x1080? IOW is the Refresh Rate tied to the resolution or to the display device?
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post #71 of 78 Old 06-18-2012, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike99 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

Precisely what's your display device (model number)? AVR (model number)?

The HDTV is a Sony KDF-E42A10. The AVR is an Onkyo, however the HDMI does not go through the AVR because it does not have any HDMI inputs. I do use an HDMI switch box between the HTPC and the HDTV because the HDTV has only 1 HDMI input.

Intel graphics recognizes the display as a Sony TV. Since it's a 720p display I have the Intel resolution set to 1280x720. I keep getting a small notification in the lower right corner of the screen that I am not using the optimum resolution & I should change it to 1920x1080. Obviously this is not correct. I have tried 1920x1080 & it does work, but I prefer the native 1280x720 because it looses less screen material due to the overscan. IOW I can see more of the Windows icons.

Just a thought - if Intel graphics recognized a different display would it perhaps allow 59/60 Hz with 1920x1080? IOW is the Refresh Rate tied to the resolution or to the display device?

 

Yeah, for me, 1280x720@59Hz looks the best timings. The driver gets information on the timings supported by the display by EDID (extended display identification data) and perhaps by modifying EDID (e.g. deleting 1080i), this notification may disappear. But I don't know how. Maybe better try a discrete card?


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post #72 of 78 Old 06-18-2012, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

Yeah, for me, 1280x720@59Hz looks the best timings. The driver gets information on the timings supported by the display by EDID (extended display identification data) and perhaps by modifying EDID (e.g. deleting 1080i), this notification may disappear. But I don't know how. Maybe better try a discrete card?

The 59 Hz works fine right now. My concern is what happens when I get a newer HDTV which is 1920x1080.

Are you saying that if the display supports 1080p60 that it will inform the Intel driver of this & hopefully it will give the option of 59 Hz with 1920x1080 resolution?
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post #73 of 78 Old 06-18-2012, 03:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

Not quite sure why you keep harping on the pictures. The data is there in the pictures (CPU usage) which is why they are posted.
I am pretty uninspired by using benchmarks to show the differences in perceived PQ. Also I experience absolutely no stuttering and use the Intel iGPU every single day with XBMC with absolutely no issues.
I don't agree at all with this statement. The Intel iGPU is just fine for XBMC and I don't see what real world benefit the Llano or ATI card offers for most users in this forum.
Also let's be clear that with interlaced movies we are talking about 5% or less than all available movies. For 1080p/720p (the other 95+%) the de-interlacer isn't even part of the discussion. And as I have shown you can use the internal de-interlacer of XBMC for playback of most of those interlaced movies/shows if needed and the Intel CPU has plenty of horsepower.
My testing of WMC, XBMC, MPC-HC, Madvr and MPC-HC showed me no discernible difference in perceived PQ to my eyes and those who I showed the different options to when I tested. XBMC not only works with the Intel iGPU but as I have shown works extremely well. There are lots of users on AVS and now even over at the XBMC forums who use it as well. Some of these reports just weren't correct which was the whole point of this thread.


My experience is similar to yours. XBMC has been working really well for me and my i3-2100 with DXVA2 disabled. My CPU usage is always below 20% and I haven't seen any stuttering or pixelation. I did see some video anomalies when I turned DXVA2 on so I do agree that is broken. But PQ has been excellent overall. As you I watch predominantly 720p and 1080p content but occasionally will watch a 1080i TV show using XBMC and haven't had any issues with deinterlacing and PQ so far. The only hiccups I've had with XBMC were occasional times when some lip sync issues and I've been able to get that fixed by choosing different video playback settings that seemed to have fixed the problem.
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post #74 of 78 Old 06-18-2012, 04:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by anleva View Post

My experience is similar to yours. XBMC has been working really well for me and my i3-2100 with DXVA2 disabled. My CPU usage is always below 20% and I haven't seen any stuttering or pixelation. I did see some video anomalies when I turned DXVA2 on so I do agree that is broken. But PQ has been excellent overall. As you I watch predominantly 720p and 1080p content but occasionally will watch a 1080i TV show using XBMC and haven't had any issues with deinterlacing and PQ so far. The only hiccups I've had with XBMC were occasional times when some lip sync issues and I've been able to get that fixed by choosing different video playback settings that seemed to have fixed the problem.

That's good to know. I haven't had any lip sync issues thus far.


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post #75 of 78 Old 06-18-2012, 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike99 View Post

Are you saying that if the display supports 1080p60 that it will inform the Intel driver of this & hopefully it will give the option of 59 Hz with 1920x1080 resolution?

 

Yes, that's how things are going.


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post #76 of 78 Old 06-18-2012, 11:28 PM
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Yes, that's how things are going.

Thank you for all your help & information.
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post #77 of 78 Old 06-19-2012, 06:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

That's good to know. I haven't had any lip sync issues thus far.

What are your video playback settings?

Do you enable 'Adjust display refresh rate to match video'?

Do you also enable 'Sync playback to display'? What sync method do you choose?

I think that when I do have problems it probably has more to do with how the file was ripped. For example movies I've ripped using MakeMKV never have a sync problem. Just occasional stuff I've downloaded.
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post #78 of 78 Old 06-21-2012, 09:30 AM
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A little tidbit I picked up on silicondust's website today:
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■Video card with support for hardware decoding and HDCP (NVIDIA 9500 or newer, ATI HD3000 or newer, or Intel HD Graphics). ATI GPUs prior to the HD5000 series and Intel Sandy Bridge GPUs may have problems decoding some content including premium channels like HBO.

http://www.silicondust.com/products/models/hdhr3-cc/

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