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post #1 of 78 Old 06-16-2012, 05:41 PM - Thread Starter
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So I was curious as many have discussed that Intel may have issues with ALL interlaced content. Since this hasn't been my, or my customers', experience I wanted to see how the Intel iGPU did with a test sample of 1080i material.

My testing rig (relevant parts):

Intel i3 2100 HD2000 graphics
ASRock Mini-ITX H67 Motherboard
LAV and Shark007 Codecs
XBMC Eden standard build

I first obtained an interlaced test file and ran MediaInfo to verify that I in fact had a 1080i source.

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Next I opened the file in Windows Media Center (WMC) and watched the entire clip with both LAV and then Shark007 codecs looking closely for anything that was odd or off --- especially combing which some have reported to be an issue with the Intel iGPU.

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351

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The test media was fluid and smooth and without artifact.

Next I opened the file in XBMC (I put it in a "fake" movie folder and then played that "movie" to get it to play)

At first I was happy with the quality and didn't see any issues. But I let the test file play as I did with WMC

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However when fast movement was present combing was immediately obvious [***Edit: This is not accurate. See below.]

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So with this information I now went back to WMC and looked for any combing in the same part of this file which again was absent.

351

351

So my conclusion is that the integrated Intel GPU can handle at least SOME interlaced media just fine. Now I know that there is some interlaced content out there that evidently it doesn't do as well with and I would be interested in trying to identify exactly what interlaced content it can and cannot handle. For how I use a HTPC (1080p, 720p and OTA 1080i) the Intel iGPU has handled everything that I --- and all of my customers thus far --- have thrown at it.

XBMC on the otherhand struggled with the same content. This for me is very disappointing as I am very much looking forward to the DVR build and hope this can get fixed before its ready for release.

Edit: Thanks to anleva I remembered that XBMC had an internal de-interlace setting. When I enabled this the playback was perfect...

347

347

So in conclusion the Intel iGPU can absolutely playback at least SOME interlaced content (and all the interlaced content that I own and watch) without any issues in XBMC and WMC. This is contrary to previous erroneous reports I have read here and elsewhere that the Intel iGPU cannot handle ANY interlaced content and should thus be avoided.
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post #2 of 78 Old 06-16-2012, 06:09 PM
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There's reported issues with live TV playing with H.264/MPEG4 and 29/59 fps switching on Comcast in some markets but this codec is planned for all markets and all providers to save bandwidth.

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post #3 of 78 Old 06-16-2012, 06:10 PM
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post #4 of 78 Old 06-16-2012, 06:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

There's reported issues with live TV playing with H.264/MPEG4 and 29/59 fps switching on Comcast in some markets but this codec is planned for all markets and all providers to save bandwidth.

When? Where did you read this?

There is a TON of misinformation out there about HTPC in general and it amazes me what is spread as truth. I am not saying you are incorrect I am just saying that I will believe it when I actually see or read it with my own eyes.

Also, will this possible "reported" change be an issue with just WMC or with certain GPUs (or both)?
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post #5 of 78 Old 06-16-2012, 06:32 PM
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post #6 of 78 Old 06-16-2012, 06:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Where is the report that all/most providers will be or are switching to this format though?
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post #7 of 78 Old 06-16-2012, 06:50 PM
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What is your deinterlacing setting in XBMC? I looked at mine while playing a 1080i video and noticed it was on off, which I assume means my TV will is doing the deinterlacing rather than XBMC? Should it be set to auto? I'll have to play around with it and see if I see any combing with my i3-2100.
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post #8 of 78 Old 06-16-2012, 06:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anleva View Post

What is your deinterlacing setting in XBMC? I looked at mine while playing a 1080i video and noticed it was on off, which I assume means my TV will is doing the deinterlacing rather than XBMC? Should it be set to auto? I'll have to play around with it and see if I see any combing with my i3-2100.

Good question. Let me look and try it again.

Edit: Good catch. It was set to off. Let me try again with some other settings.
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post #9 of 78 Old 06-16-2012, 07:03 PM
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I had a Charter tech at my house today and he confirmed that Charter will be making the change in the next 12 months.

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post #10 of 78 Old 06-16-2012, 07:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

I had a Charter tech at my house today and he confirmed that Charter will be making the change in the next 12 months.

I am not trying to be obtuse here but you stated "all markets and all providers" and I just want to clarify where you received this information. While it may affect some people it likely will not affect "all" and may, in fact, affect only a vast minority.

And does anyone know if this is a WMC problem or a hardware problem? I watched the above video but this may be a driver issue and not necessarily a hardware issue.
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post #11 of 78 Old 06-16-2012, 07:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks anleva. I also had the de-interlace option set to "off" in XBMC and when I changed this to "Auto" and "Auto Select" the picture was perfect. So in conclusion with this particular 1080i file the Intel iGPU played back the file in WMC and XBMC with 100% perfection according to my eyes and screenshots. Its definitely capable of at least SOME interlaced content contrary to previous erroneous reports.

I will update the first post.

347

347
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post #12 of 78 Old 06-16-2012, 07:42 PM
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Glad that helped! I'm curious though, If deinterlacing is set to off would that mean that no deinterlacing is being done by the HTPC/XBMC and all deinterlacing would be done by the display itself?
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post #13 of 78 Old 06-16-2012, 08:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

So I was curious as many have discussed that Intel may have issues with ALL interlaced content. Since this hasn't been my, or my customers', experience I wanted to see how the Intel iGPU did with a test sample of 1080i material.

My testing rig (relevant parts):

Intel i3 2100 HD2000 graphics
ASRock Mini-ITX H67 Motherboard
LAV and Shark007 Codecs
XBMC Eden standard build

What display and rate were you watching? 1080p60 ?
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post #14 of 78 Old 06-16-2012, 08:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jim2100 View Post

What display and rate were you watching? 1080p60 ?

Yes.
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post #15 of 78 Old 06-16-2012, 08:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

I am not trying to be obtuse here but you stated "all markets and all providers" and I just want to clarify where you received this information. While it may affect some people it likely will not affect "all" and may, in fact, affect only a vast minority.
And does anyone know if this is a WMC problem or a hardware problem? I watched the above video but this may be a driver issue and not necessarily a hardware issue.

Most posts I've read seeem to point to a driver problem. Hoping intel issues a new driver otherwise a GT430 is a $30 solution so I'm not too concerned. That said if you have a laptop or netbook it is a different problem you arefacing.

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post #16 of 78 Old 06-16-2012, 08:33 PM
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Can your display accept 1080i60? I'm curious how the deinterlacer in your display compares.

I guess people who are highly concerned about deinterlacing must have displays without deinterlacers, or with poor built-in deinterlacers.
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post #17 of 78 Old 06-16-2012, 09:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jim2100 View Post

Can your display accept 1080i60? I'm curious how the deinterlacer in your display compares.
I guess people who are highly concerned about deinterlacing must have displays without deinterlacers, or with poor built-in deinterlacers.

If I get some more free time (which is at a premium) I will try to test.
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post #18 of 78 Old 06-16-2012, 10:48 PM
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Originally Posted by anleva View Post

I'm curious though, If deinterlacing is set to off would that mean that no deinterlacing is being done by the HTPC/XBMC and all deinterlacing would be done by the display itself?

No, unless you select the "59i Hz" or "60i Hz" refresh rate ("29 Hz" or "30 Hz" in the case of AMD/NVIDIA). Deinterlacing is always done by the PC (hardware or software) so that the progressives signals are sent to the display at "59p Hz" or "60p Hz" ("59 Hz" or "60 Hz" in the case of AMD/NVIDIA).

 

Summary of Intel iGPU + XBMC (DXVA2 ON)

 

At 59p/60p Hz (59/60 Hz) refresh rate:

 

DI Video \ DI Method Auto DXVA Best DXVA Bob
Auto Bob freeze Bob
On Bob freeze Bob
Off Weave

 

Compare with AMD GPU:

 

DI Video \ DI Method Auto DXVA Best DXVA Bob
Auto Bob Vector Adaptive Bob
On Bob Vector Adaptive Bob
Off Weave

 

Intel iGPU + XBMC is a poor choice for interlaced contents (H.264, MPEG-2). XBMC does not support interlaced VC-1.

 

At 59i/60i Hz (29/30 Hz) refresh rate:

 

DI Video \ DI Method Auto DXVA Best DXVA Bob
Auto Display deinterlacer
On PC deinterlacer + Display deinterlacer (avoid it!)
Off Display deinterlacer

 

I used Cheese Slices.

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post #19 of 78 Old 06-17-2012, 07:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

I watched the above video but this may be a driver issue and not necessarily a hardware issue.

That is a good question. Although it is having problems with this format, it may be a driver issue and can be fixed. I think it is important to determine if it is hardware or driver. Has anyone sent in a trouble call with Intel to try and shed some light on this?
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post #20 of 78 Old 06-17-2012, 07:59 AM
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Originally Posted by jim2100 View Post

I guess people who are highly concerned about deinterlacing must have displays without deinterlacers, or with poor built-in deinterlacers.

 

Not necessarily. Do you want to switch back and forth between 59Hz, 29Hz and 23Hz (and even 480 29Hz) depending on the content? Setting the refresh rate to 59Hz and switching to 23Hz for movies is a lot easier. Ultimately PC is a progressive scan player to be connected with a progressive scan display.

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post #21 of 78 Old 06-17-2012, 08:31 AM
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Thanks renethx, very helpfu!

So if I'm interpreting all of this correctly, if you are using an Intel iGPU and have the refresh rate set to 60p hz or 59p hz and deinterlacing set to off within XBMC, it will still deinterlace 1080i content using the 'weave' method. So in assassin's test the first trial was really of using a 'weave' methodology and the second test of 'bob' methodology and in his case 'bob' produced superior results?
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post #22 of 78 Old 06-17-2012, 09:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anleva View Post

Thanks renethx, very helpfu!
So if I'm interpreting all of this correctly, if you are using an Intel iGPU and have the refresh rate set to 60p hz or 59p hz and deinterlacing set to off within XBMC, it will still deinterlace 1080i content using the 'weave' method. So in assassin's test the first trial was really of using a 'weave' methodology and the second test of 'bob' methodology and in his case 'bob' produced superior results?


 In Weave, you will see usual ugly combing for moving objects. Bob is the most primitive deinterlacing method except for Weave and should be avoided too. PQ increases in this order:

 

Weave < Bob < Adaptive < Motion Adaptive < Vector Adaptive (in AMD's terms)

 

All of AMD, Intel, NVIDIA GPU can do (an equivalent of) Vector Adaptive. Unfortunately Intel iGPU does not work properly under XBMC.

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post #23 of 78 Old 06-17-2012, 09:06 AM
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So if I have a video processor the best choice would be the Intel one, isn't?
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post #24 of 78 Old 06-17-2012, 09:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post


 In Weave, you will see usual ugly combing for moving objects. Bob is the most primitive deinterlacing method except for Weave and should be avoided too. PQ increases in this order:

Weave < Bob < Adaptive < Motion Adaptive < Vector Adaptive (in AMD's terms)

All of AMD, Intel, NVIDIA GPU can do (an equivalent of) Vector Adaptive. Unfortunately Intel iGPU does not work properly under XBMC.


I just double checked and noticed I have a different set of choices for deinterlace method.

Deinterlace video: on, off, auto
Deinterlace method: auto, software blend, de-interlace, de-interlace (half)

So off/auto=weave, auto/auto=bob. Where do the software blend, de-interlace and de-interlace (half) fit into things?
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post #25 of 78 Old 06-17-2012, 09:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by renethx View Post

Unfortunately Intel iGPU does not work properly under XBMC.

Its working fine for me with all the interlaced content that I have. Make sure to turn DXVA off as its not needed if using an Intel iGPU.
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post #26 of 78 Old 06-17-2012, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by aoshiken View Post

So if I have a video processor the best choice would be the Intel one, isn't?

 

If you are going to use an external video processor for deinterlacing by selecting the refresh rate 59i Hz (Intel) / 29Hz (AMD/NVIDIA), then any of them should be good. But IMO, using the PC for all video post-processing tasks is a lot easier (and cheaper) and mostly equivalent to the best external video processors (as seen in HQV Benchmark).

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post #27 of 78 Old 06-17-2012, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post


Its working fine for me with all the interlaced content that I have. Make sure to turn DXVA off as its not needed if using an Intel iGPU.

 

Summary of Intel iGPU + XBMC (DXVA2 OFF)

 

If you turn off "DXVA2" in SYSTEM Settings, you are going to resort to software decoding (so higher CPU usage, 10W more power consumption) + XBMC's own deinterlacing algorithm, so that you will get exactly identical PQ whatever GPU you use (Intel, AMD or NVIDIA). I see three deinterlacing methods in this case:

 

- Software Blend

- De-Interlace (Half)

- De-Interlace

 

The first two give lower PQ. The last is more or less equivalent to "Adaptive", still inferior to Intel driver's best deinterlacing algorithm. But as Intel iGPU is broken in XBMC, "DXVA2" turned off + "De-Interlace" is the best choice right now if you insist on Intel iGPU + XBMC internal player.

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post #28 of 78 Old 06-17-2012, 10:25 AM - Thread Starter
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And it looks fantastic to my eyes and just as good as WMC, MPC-HC and Madvr. Intel CPU has plenty of headroom to use a little more CPU. I think I used about 20% or so.

Edit: Just did a little more testing. Looks like the CPU uses a whopping 3-5% more with DXVA disabled and de-interlace turned off. (14-15% with de-interlace off in XBMC compared to 17-18% with de-interlacing enabled on my system)

Again we are talking about 1080i content which is only about 5% or so of all movies. But even those 5% play and this is just another HTPC fallacy that has gotten perpetuated with no one really taking the time to actually test it.
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post #29 of 78 Old 06-17-2012, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by jim2100 View Post

I guess people who are highly concerned about deinterlacing must have displays without deinterlacers, or with poor built-in deinterlacers.

Do you want to switch back and forth between 59Hz, 29Hz and 23Hz (and even 480 29Hz) depending on the content?

Yes, that is what I do. MPC-HC does it automatically.
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post #30 of 78 Old 06-17-2012, 10:37 AM
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Yes, that is what I do. MPC-HC does it automatically.


For live TV (the main source of interlaced contents), say in WMC, no way.

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