MadVR, Intel IGP, and RAM Speed - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 206 Old 06-26-2012, 10:24 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm sorry to start a thread just to ask about this, but I saw a chart a while back about ram speed and how it affected madvr with the sandy bridge IGP and I can't find it anymore and was wondering if someone might know where it was or what ram speed was recommended. I can't recall if it was 1866mhz or 2133mhz.

Also does anyone have any opinions on Ivy Bridge and MadVR? I found some discussions online, but haven't been able to find anything dedicated to that discussion on this site.
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post #2 of 206 Old 06-26-2012, 11:22 PM
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Intel HD Graphics 1000/2000/2500

Intel HD Graphics 3000

Intel HD Graphics 4000 ? I wrote a quick summary in a post. Because of extremely poor search engine, I can't find it. Yes, it can handle all contents with DDR3-1600 (maybe a dropped frame every couple of minutes)

 

Overall Intel iGPU is not good enough yet for madVR. Let alone the full range RGB level issue and not so good 23.796Hz. We will have to wait for Haswell.

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post #3 of 206 Old 06-26-2012, 11:30 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm confused, your posts that you linked to which were the ones I was having trouble finding, say that Sandy Bridge can handle MadVR on high settings, though lanczos 3 taps rather than 4 is necessary due to limitations by the IGP. However since the HD4000 in Ivy Bridge has 16 EU's rather than 12 I imagine it should be plenty fine for even that, which is what you said in your 2nd linked post at the end. I get that the IGP is just barely able to do madvr, but it looks like it is capable.

Also how did you OC the IGP? Did you do it via BIOS the way one does with a CPU or did you use some sort of program?
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post #4 of 206 Old 06-26-2012, 11:43 PM
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A content with 60 frames per second (1080i60, 480i60 [video], 760p60, 1080p60; interlaced contents are actually 60 fields per second, but tuned to 60 frames after deinterlaced) has to be processed quickly in a short period of 1 / 60fps = 16.67 ms. I see "rendering time" be often ~14.5 ms with Core i5-3570K. This indicates that GPU is not good enough yet. If GPU is overcloked to 1350MHz (under "GT OverClocking Support" in BIOS) and DDR3-2133 is used (that works only under a Z68/Z77/Z75 motherboard), the rendering time can be reduced to ~12.5ms. But you may see BSOD.

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post #5 of 206 Old 06-27-2012, 06:08 AM
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Does AMD offer a better AIO solution? Does the E-450 with the Radeon HD 6320 graphics have the oomph to support full madvr processing? I would think the graphics side would be plenty, but the cpu itself is pretty weak.
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post #6 of 206 Old 06-27-2012, 08:35 AM
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Renethx -

Thank your for your post and benchmarks. I studied the metrics you linked to for the HD 2000 using the Celeron G530 and here are my conclusions from that post.

My configuration:

i3-2100 HD2000 Graphics
DDR3 1333
H67 motherboard
default clock
madVR, medium quality (Bilinear/Bicubic 50/Bicubic 50), in full screen exclusive mode
Intel QuickSync

My conclusion for my configuration (I had to make some assumptions as your metrics were with an overlocked G530 with faster memory):

- My only issue as far as adequate rendering performance would be SD interlaced Video output to 480p60. I should have adequate rendering performance for SD Film, HD Film, HD i Video, HD p Video.

- If I never watch SD content, my configuration rendering performance will be adequate. It looks like there may even be some headroom to increase some from medium quality to a higher quality for HD film and interlaced video.

- With slower memory than DDR-2133 you had a CPU utilization issue with HD i video. But that was with a Celeron G530. My assumption is that with a much faster CPU such as my i3-2100 I would not see that CPU utlization problem.

So my conclusion from your data (again I needed to make some assumptions since it was not with an i3-2100 and my memory) is my configuration should have adequate performance at medium settings if SD video is not a requirment. Since I'm an HD snob and don't watch SD content, it would be fine for me to use madVR and MPC-HC and there might even be headroom to increase quality from medium.

Is my conclusion reasonable?
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post #7 of 206 Old 06-27-2012, 10:15 AM
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Nice question. I'll be interested in the answer too.

It is my understanding that w/o overclocking DDR 1333 is the fastest you can go. I have DDR 1600 but I don't think the full speed of the RAM is utilized in my system, which is an i3-550 with HD2000 graphics, MadVR at default and no QuickSync (don't think it works with HD2000).

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post #8 of 206 Old 06-27-2012, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by koopman View Post

Does AMD offer a better AIO solution? Does the E-450 with the Radeon HD 6320 graphics have the oomph to support full madvr processing? I would think the graphics side would be plenty, but the cpu itself is pretty weak.

 

MadVR does not use CPU to process video, it uses GPU exclusively. Roughly there are three stages of video processing:

 

- Decoding by GPU's fixed function: AMD's UVD, Intel MFX, NVIDIA's VP (you can also use CPU to decode video, of course) [The decoder and video memory are important here.]

- Copying back decoded frames to the system memory, then uploading them to the video memory

- Processing by madVR/GPU's shader units [The number of sharder units matters here.]

 

Performance of each GPU at each stage depends on the video format played back. There are six major video formats in NTSC countries:

 

  Origin Main medium Format Output to renderer Frame interval
SD film film DVD, SDTV broadcast 480i60 480p24 41.708 ms
SD video video DVD, SDTV broadcast, camcorder 480i60 480p60 16.683 ms
HD film film BD (and HDTV broadcast up to pulldown) 1080p24 1080p24 41.708 ms
HD interlaced video video BD, HDTV broadcast, camcorder 1080i60 1080p60 16.683 ms
HD progressive video (720) video HDTV broadcast, camcorder 720p60 720p60 16.683 ms
HD progressive video (1080) video camcorder 1080p60 1080p60 16.683 ms

 

Test clips I used. A quick summary:

 

  Radeon HD 6310 / 6320 (Zacate) Radeon HD 6410D (Llano) / 6450 Radeon HD 6530D / 6550D (Llano) Radeon HD 6570 and higher Radeon HD 7xxx Intel HD 1k / 2k / 2.5k / 3k Intel HD 4K GeForce 520=610 / 620 / 430 DDR3-1400 GeForce 430 DDR3-1600 / 440=630 and higher
Decoder NG for 1080p60 Good Good Good Good Good Good Good Good
Copy back / Upload NG for HD NG for 760p60 / 1080p60

NG for 720p60 / 1080p60

NG for 1080p60 Good Good Good Good Good
Shader units NG for any but SD film NG for video Good Good Good NG for video OK NG for video Good
To sum up NG for any but SD film NG for video NG for 720p60 / 1080p60 NG for 1080p60 Good NG for video OK NG for video Good

 

AMD A6-3500 Llano APU with HD 6530D is the cheapest ($70) all-in-one solution (except for the camcorder formats). AMD Trinity APU, to be released in October, should fix the copy-back/upload problem. If you want to use a discrete graphics card, then Intel SNB/IVB + Radeon HD 7750 is perhaps the best solution. GeForce GT 430 DDR3-1600 is also good (and $40 cheaper), but the driver UI sucks (how).

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post #9 of 206 Old 06-27-2012, 10:42 AM
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Renethx -

In the HD2000, G530, performance metrics you provided the average rendering time for HD i and HD p video are well below the 60fps frame interval (not so for SD video).

So wouldn't it be more accurate to say "NG for SD video" in your chart? From your performance metrics it looks like rendering time would be acceptable for HD i and HP p video which is the essence of my question above.
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post #10 of 206 Old 06-27-2012, 11:24 AM
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Intel HD 1k/2k + DDR3-1066/1333 is good only for films at madVR high quality. The results with Core i3-2100 + DDR3-1333 + high quality FSE:

 

  deinterlacing time rendering time (should be less than 16.7 ms)
SD video 4 ms 34 ms
HD interlaced video 6 ms 32 ms
HD progressive video (720) NA 39 ms
HD progressive video (1080) NA 17 ms
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post #11 of 206 Old 06-27-2012, 11:34 AM
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Thanks Renethx. My initial question, which has not yet been directly addressed, concerned the performance capabilities of my configuration at medium quality settings based on the data you provided for the HD2000 at the start of this thread. From my original post:

"So my conclusion from your data (again I needed to make some assumptions since it was not with an i3-2100 and my memory) is my configuration should have adequate performance at medium settings if SD video is not a requirment. Since I'm an HD snob and don't watch SD content, it would be fine for me to use madVR and MPC-HC and there might even be headroom to increase quality from medium.

Is my conclusion reasonable?"
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post #12 of 206 Old 06-27-2012, 11:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

Intel HD 1k/2k + DDR3-1066/1333 is good only for films at madVR high quality. The results with Core i3-2100 + DDR3-1333:


  deinterlacing time rendering time (should be less than 16.7 ms)
SD video 4 ms 34 ms
HD interlaced video 6 ms 32 ms
HD progressive video (720) NA 39 ms
HD progressive video (1080) NA 17 ms


So 720p takes more time to render than 1080p?

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post #13 of 206 Old 06-27-2012, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

Intel HD 1k/2k + DDR3-1066/1333 is good only for films at madVR high quality. The results with Core i3-2100 + DDR3-1333:


  deinterlacing time rendering time (should be less than 16.7 ms)
SD video 4 ms 34 ms
HD interlaced video 6 ms 32 ms
HD progressive video (720) NA 39 ms
HD progressive video (1080) NA 17 ms


Actually renethx what I would really appreciate is to see this exact chart at madVR medium quality settings if you the information available. That is the results with Core i3-2100 + DDR3-1333 at madVR medium quality settings.
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post #14 of 206 Old 06-27-2012, 12:30 PM
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The results with Core i3-2100 + DDR3-1333 + medium quality FSE:

 

  deinterlacing time rendering time (should be less than 16.7 ms)
SD video 2 ms 22 ms
HD interlaced video 6 ms 21 ms
HD progressive video (720) NA 22 ms
HD progressive video (1080) NA 9 ms

 

GPU struggles with deinterlacing. So if "yadif" (software deinterlacer) is on in LAV Video Decoder,

 

  deinterlacing time rendering time (should be less than 16.7 ms)
SD video NA 19 ms
HD interlaced video NA 9 ms
HD progressive video (720) NA 22 ms
HD progressive video (1080) NA 9 ms

 

So this is good for SD/HD films and 1080i/p60 videos; not good for SD videos and 720p60 videos.

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post #15 of 206 Old 06-27-2012, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

...So this is good for SD/HD films and 1080i/p60 videos; not good for SD videos and 720p60 videos.

Perfect, thank you so much for the information!
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post #16 of 206 Old 06-27-2012, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

So 720p takes more time to render than 1080p?

 

Yes. No luma up/downsampling is necessary for 1080 contents in a 1080p display, but luma upsampling is necessary for 720 contents.

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post #17 of 206 Old 06-27-2012, 02:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

Yes. No luma up/downsampling is necessary for 1080 contents in a 1080p display, but luma upsampling is necessary for 720 contents.

Okay. Is there a way to "pass the 720p through to my AVR untouched so it can use its internal upscaler to 1080p?

Even very little of the content I watch is 720p except some LiveTV I guess and I'm not seeing any stutter or frame drops on LiveTV so I'm not sure if this is an issue. Sure the processor may be leaving a few frames behind but I'm not noticing it, I guess.

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post #18 of 206 Old 06-27-2012, 10:41 PM
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Okay. Is there a way to "pass the 720p through to my AVR untouched so it can use its internal upscaler to 1080p?

 

Set the desktop resolution/refresh rate to 1280x720 / 59Hz.

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post #19 of 206 Old 06-28-2012, 06:51 AM
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Renethx said: "MadVR does not use CPU to process video ...... you can also use CPU to decode video, of course" . I'm confused!
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post #20 of 206 Old 06-28-2012, 06:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

Okay. Is there a way to "pass the 720p through to my AVR untouched so it can use its internal upscaler to 1080p?
Even very little of the content I watch is 720p except some LiveTV I guess and I'm not seeing any stutter or frame drops on LiveTV so I'm not sure if this is an issue. Sure the processor may be leaving a few frames behind but I'm not noticing it, I guess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

Set the desktop resolution/refresh rate to 1280x720 / 59Hz.

Thanks!

So then what happens with 1080i LiveTV content? Currently I have the display settings in windows to 1920x1080 to match the resolution of my HDTV.

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post #21 of 206 Old 06-28-2012, 07:53 AM
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Of course, every 1080i/p video will be downsampled to 720p.

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post #22 of 206 Old 06-28-2012, 08:11 AM
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Even if MavVR is set to switch to 1080p23/24 it won't be displayed that way because windows is set to 1280x720?

That won't work. I'm not seeing any stutter problems on LiveTV but some 720p mkv's do have some stutter. Now I know why.

Looks like the proper GT430 is in my future. I know you've recommended a particular card to others before but I don't know where the link is? Quite and fanless would be good.

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post #23 of 206 Old 06-28-2012, 08:35 AM
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Well, switching the desktop resolution to 720p59 when you play a 720p59 MKV, then back to the default resolution 1080p59 after finishing the playback is easy as well, assuming you already know madVR's framerate token. smile.gif

 

1. In madVR settings > devices > "your display" > display modes > "list all display modes madVR may switch to:", add "720p59" (without quotes).

 

2. Add "720p59" (without quotes) somewhere in the name of a 720p59 mkv file.

 

That's it.

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post #24 of 206 Old 06-28-2012, 08:38 AM
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Okay, so if I set windows to 1280x720, MadVR will still override that for 1080p23/24 content then?

I've seen MadVR switch from 1080x60 (59) (windows default) to 1080x24 and I don't have 1080p23 in the file name as it shows for a few seconds on my Samsung HTDV what refresh rate it is receiving when the refresh rate is changed. Isn't MadVR using the mkv's metadata to do this? Won't it do this for 720p59 content too?

This might be the way to go, because my AVR will ignore the request to upscale to 1080p content that already is 1080p, I think. Guess I need to post that over in the Denon XX12 thread.

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post #25 of 206 Old 06-28-2012, 08:41 AM
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post #26 of 206 Old 06-28-2012, 08:49 AM
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Fortunatelly my HTPC can accept a high profile card. Wasn't there a sparkle card that you recommended previously? I haven't been able to find the fanless one.

Is the solution in my previous post do-able?

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post #27 of 206 Old 06-28-2012, 08:51 AM
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I see that it has a low profile adaptor. I'm not sure if the heatpipe on that thing will fit under my drive cage. It is going to be tight.

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post #28 of 206 Old 06-28-2012, 08:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

Okay, so if I set windows to 1280x720, MadVR will still override that for 1080p23/24 content then?

I've seen MadVR switch from 1080s60 (windows default) to 1080x24 and I don't have 1080p23 in the file name as it shows for a few secondes on my Samsung HTDV what refresh rate it is receiving when the refresh rate is changed. Isn't it using the mkv's metadata to do this? Won't it do this for 720p59 content too?

This might be the way to go, because my AVR will ignore the request to upscale to 1080p content that already is 1080p, I think. Guess I need to post that over in the Denon XX12 thread.

 

If the native resolution of your display is 1920x1080, then you should set the default desktop resolution to 1920x1080 59Hz. MadVR accepts the token 23p (switching to 1920x1080 23Hz) as well as 720p59 (switching to 1280x720 59Hz) and 720p23 (switching to 1280x720 23Hz), or whatever. If you want to change not only refresh rate but also resolutions, you will have to add it in the list "list all display modes madVR may switch to:" as explained above.

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post #29 of 206 Old 06-28-2012, 08:57 AM
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I think I may have used 720p60 and that is why it isn't switching. So if it is set to 720p59 is "luma upsampling necessary for 720 content" using 720p output to my AVR and letting it upsample to 1080p to pass it to the HDTV?

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post #30 of 206 Old 06-28-2012, 08:59 AM
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BTW, Rene your knowledge is an incredible resource. So happy to see that you are back on avs..

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