Trying not to panic about Windows 8 - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 33 Old 06-27-2012, 09:58 PM - Thread Starter
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My entire house runs off a brand new Windows 7 MC + Ceton Tuner combo. If this is true, Windows 7 might be the last viable MCE for broadcast systems. Can someone shed light on this? Anyone from Ceton?

http://thedigitallifestyle.com/w/index.php/2012/06/19/tv-tuner-and-wmc-remote-control-and-receiver-no-longer-included-in-windows-hardware-certification/

Removal of Tuners from the hardware certification is a big deal because that pretty much declares WMC dead for DVR functionality.
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post #2 of 33 Old 06-28-2012, 06:29 AM
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I have liked 7MC as a PVR/DVR. But things change. I have never used Linux as my operating system, but Linux may be a solution. Don't panic yet. Obviously the content providers and the cable and other land line providers want everyone to pay for every view, and they are taking away the alternatives. However, HTPC users are a market and probably there will be people and companies who want our business.
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post #3 of 33 Old 06-28-2012, 08:05 AM
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Well to me, I feel better since Win 7 isn't going anywhere. So if it works now, it'll work for a long while yet.

Once you do have to build around Win 8 or something else, I'm hoping there will be solutions for us. Ceton is doing alot of work in that area with their Q DVR and $99 extender/streamer , so there is hope for us yet.


Oh and keep in mind that although MS removed the certification process for tuners and remotes, any company can still make those products to work with Win 8. I guess it means a bit less QC since before you had MS requiring certain a certain minimum of quality, but it doesn't stop those devices from coming out.
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post #4 of 33 Old 06-28-2012, 08:22 AM
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I just hope they dont discontinue guide data. As long as they dont do that, I dont see any reason existing hardware/setups won't be good untill win 7 support reaches end of life many years from now, which should be plenty of time for people to get their money's worth out of what they have invested in their setups, and hopefully a suitable alternative being released in the mean time weather it somehow someway be existing alternatives that dont have good if any cable support like Myth, XBMC, etc, or something entirely new. I dont see any reason for them to otherwise kill off WMC functionality in other ways in the mean time. Guide data is key to the whole thing working on the cablecard television side, and there is wording right from the beginning that says they can stop providing that at any time, so that will be the wild card. If they did happen to kill off the guide data, I often wonder how deeply entrenched in the coding that is to overall operation, as in if it's not too deeply integrated if some workaround using other web based tv listings such as google or yahoo could be used in it's place.

Basicly while certainly not good news, and making the future of such setups anyones guess, I dont see putting together a new WMC setup today as being a waste of time or DOA. Despite WMC not having much if any of a future, one should still be able to get years of use at the current state...barring they dont pull guide data or no good workaround surfaces eventually if they do.
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post #5 of 33 Old 06-28-2012, 08:30 AM
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I'm pretty sure if that happens SiliconDust and Ceton will provide either a replacement quide plug-in or separate DVR software to protect their product sales. Maybe it's aa one-time fee or a monthly prescription but I think they'd do it so they can continue the sales of their fantastic tuners.

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post #6 of 33 Old 06-28-2012, 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

I'm pretty sure if that happens SiliconDust and Ceton will provide either a replacement quide plug-in or separate DVR software to protect their product sales. Maybe it's aa one-time fee or a monthly prescription but I think they'd do it so they can continue the sales of their fantastic tuners.

I'm not completely sold on this. Hauppauge and Silicon dust only have a single model of cablecard tuner out of many tuners overall, and as far as Hauppauge goes, it's a rebadged silicon dust and not even their own. I could see them easily dropping cablcard tuners all together. In fact they may already be heading down that path as both products have been out for quite awhile with nothing new since. With both those guys, they seem to release tuners in all sorts of flavors, to the point that some of them are pointless other then just being newer models with the same capabilities...yet neither has released an internal cablecard tuner which is a hole in their product lineups, evan after all this time. Ceton on the other hand, their business pretty much IS cablecard tuners. With them, I could see them continuing on with cablecard tuners, but most likely with proprietary software to use with it akin to winTV with Hauppauge, rather then doing the development to make their product work with something there isnt a defined standard for like Myth, XBMC, or even windows if they were to effectively kill it by taking away the guide nevermind the hardware certification. I would speculate that the main focus of Ceton would end up being more akin to Tivo alternative with DVR and Extenders running their own proprietary software. Bottom line is continuing availability of PC cablecard tuners is dependent on effective software to use with it, and I dont think any of the hardware manufacturers would bother with anything more then simple viewing software like Hauppauge's wintv. Anything more like an entire HTPC suite would most likely come embedded on an entire stand alone device rather then software that can be installed to a computer.
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post #7 of 33 Old 06-28-2012, 09:31 AM
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I wonder if MS would sell the rights to WMC to Ceton or Hauppage? If they did offer to sell WMC it would most likely be prohibitively expensive but I suppose it is at least possible.
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post #8 of 33 Old 06-28-2012, 09:36 AM
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SiliconDust doesn't have any pci card tuners AFAIK.

Even then, what does that have to do with developing s/w to support sales of your network attached h/w?

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post #9 of 33 Old 06-28-2012, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

SiliconDust doesn't have any pci card tuners AFAIK.
Even then, what does that have to do with developing s/w to support sales of your network attached h/w?
I would think that all OEMs would have a hard time selling a cablecard tuner (pci or network attached) if there was no DVR s/w that would allow for recording encrypted content. The fact that the s/w capability existed before the h/w was ever released would lead me to believe that if WMC was killed that the market for cablecard tuners would collapse.
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post #10 of 33 Old 06-28-2012, 10:17 AM
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Guess I'm more positive about the future of it all..

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post #11 of 33 Old 06-28-2012, 10:47 AM
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Guess I'm more positive about the future of it all..
I suppose I'd have to agree. I think that MS is basically signaling the marketplace that this is not a business they want to be in. The good news is that MS has not pulled the plug on WMC yet so there seems to be a window here for another company to step in and develop a replacement before MS kills WMC (if ever).
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post #12 of 33 Old 06-28-2012, 05:58 PM
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I wonder if MS would sell the rights to WMC to Ceton or Hauppage? If they did offer to sell WMC it would most likely be prohibitively expensive but I suppose it is at least possible.

What software has MS ever sold the rights to? And even if they did, there's no way either of those two companies could afford it.
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post #13 of 33 Old 06-28-2012, 06:19 PM
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J. River said they are working on getting cable card support. If WMC exists the market someone else will take their place. It might be a small market but it's still there, and a company like J. River that charges for their program could still make plenty of profit.
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post #14 of 33 Old 06-28-2012, 08:57 PM
 
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7 is not going to die the day that 8 gets released. It will still be supported for about 6 years from now, so stick with it. If you are satisfied with 7, why switch. Matter of fact, the less that switch to 8, will show MS that there is not an appeal to Bob +2.
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post #15 of 33 Old 06-29-2012, 11:18 AM
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J. River said they are working on getting cable card support. If WMC exists the market someone else will take their place. It might be a small market but it's still there, and a company like J. River that charges for their program could still make plenty of profit.

I wonder how J River is going to pull that off. It usually is an expensive and lengthy proposition to get the certifications as MS did. There is a reason no one other then MS made the effort.
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post #16 of 33 Old 06-29-2012, 11:39 AM
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I wonder how J River is going to pull that off. It usually is an expensive and lengthy proposition to get the certifications as MS did. There is a reason no one other then MS made the effort.

On the optimistic side, MS already did the hard work of getting PlayReady approved as an acceptable DRM solution for protected CableCard recordings, so you could leverage that and just license PlayReady and build your solution around that, which would be a lot simpler than trying to build your own solution from scratch.

Ont the less optimistic side, I've said it in some other places, but I wouldn't put my investment dollars into building a PC CableCard solution today, I just don't see it as a big enough market, and it's a shrinking market at that.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #17 of 33 Old 06-29-2012, 12:05 PM
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Do you have hard data to back up that position?

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post #18 of 33 Old 06-29-2012, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trooper11 View Post

I wonder how J River is going to pull that off. It usually is an expensive and lengthy proposition to get the certifications as MS did. There is a reason no one other then MS made the effort.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

On the optimistic side, MS already did the hard work of getting PlayReady approved as an acceptable DRM solution for protected CableCard recordings, so you could leverage that and just license PlayReady and build your solution around that, which would be a lot simpler than trying to build your own solution from scratch.
Ont the less optimistic side, I've said it in some other places, but I wouldn't put my investment dollars into building a PC CableCard solution today, I just don't see it as a big enough market, and it's a shrinking market at that.

Uh oh. Paging Erickotz.
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post #19 of 33 Old 06-29-2012, 01:46 PM
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Do you have hard data to back up that position?

Me? Which part? The part about Playready/WMDRM?

how about this:
http://www.cablelabs.com/opencable/primer/cablecard_primer.html
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The OCUR employs DRM technology (e.g., WMDRM and Real Helix), and is used to provide premium digital cable content to certain PCs. The PC itself must meet certain criteria established by the DRM provider, but is not certified separately by CableLabs. OCUR products are defined by CableLabs OpenCable specifications. The product must follow the requirements defined by the CableLabs OCUR specifications and DRI specifications. Presently these devices are required to support the S-Mode interface, but work is underway to extend their support to allow the M-Mode interface.

There's also this post from Eric Kotz from Ceton with some more details on the Playready side:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1336614/latest-ceton-infinitv-4-info-thread/1170#post_21164385

Microsoft got WMDRM approved by CableLabs for protection of CableCard content, and Ceton/SIlicondust have gotten their tuners certified as well. Remenber it's the OCUR itself which repackages the content from the "wire" encryption to the WMDRM protection. So in theory if you can license WMDRM from Microsoft and develop and interface to tune and receive data from the OCUR, you're good to go.

Now that said there has been very little movement in that direction, and I really don't know why, perhaps it's because the WMDRM license is too expensive, I don't know.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #20 of 33 Old 06-29-2012, 01:54 PM
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This:

"I wouldn't put my investment dollars into building a PC CableCard solution today, I just don't see it as a big enough market, and it's a shrinking market at that."

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post #21 of 33 Old 06-29-2012, 02:03 PM
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No, but I seem to be not alone in my thought. MS seems to be getting out, Snapstream got out a while ago, SageTV got out, XMBC has their PVR functionality indefinitely in the next release....

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post #22 of 33 Old 06-29-2012, 02:15 PM
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But Ceton and SiliconDust are in pretty much 100%. Ceton is branching out into the Q but the Echo and tuner are in on this. SilconDust does nothing but tuners and also does systems for hotels and sports bars with multiples of TV's and tuners. Seems they're all in.

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post #23 of 33 Old 06-29-2012, 02:17 PM
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Ceton and SD both make professional products for "industrial" use as well. Now if I already had a business, I'd see no problem leveraging that for the consumer space, but I personally would not invest in a PC solution now, not for home use.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #24 of 33 Old 06-29-2012, 02:23 PM
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Okay but these are just suppositions. Without hard evidence which to me means numbers, it is anybody's guess.

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post #25 of 33 Old 06-29-2012, 02:27 PM
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All I ever said is I would not put my investment dollars in it.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #26 of 33 Old 06-29-2012, 02:30 PM
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Its just certification, if anything it might be a good thing. Certification has been useless for video cards and has held back drivers from Creative for their soundcards since Creative is lazy and uses "certification process" frequently as an excuse for not releasing drivers.
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post #27 of 33 Old 06-29-2012, 02:37 PM
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All I ever said is I would not put my investment dollars in it.

Okay. I was reading more into it, as in, "people that invest in that must be nuts." Sorry..

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post #28 of 33 Old 06-29-2012, 02:39 PM
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Okay. I was reading more into it, as in, "people that invest in that must be nuts." Sorry..

So would you put YOUR money into it?
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post #29 of 33 Old 06-29-2012, 02:45 PM
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If I had the chance, probably. But I don't have a whole lot to invest. Pretty much tapped out these days. mad.gif

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post #30 of 33 Old 06-29-2012, 02:56 PM
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It looks like we got some cable/satellite reps on this forum.
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