What is the very best wireless router available right now? - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 471 Old 07-10-2012, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

The best answer to this question very much rests on the details of your requirement.
He's already decided upon and purchased two routers, and he's now testing both.
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

You should be aware that just as there is consumer audio and professional audio, there are also consumer routers (which I think you have primarily mentioned other than Sonic Wall) and professional grade routers/access points/etc. The professional grade tools have features like far higher power, adaptability for use with external antennas, connectivity via POE, etc. And, they are often very competitively priced.
Consumer grade routers with custom firmwares can allow higher dB signals from your antenna, overclocking, etc but you typically burn your tech out faster that way. In the other 3 pages there is plenty of info you might want to look at more closely, while you mention pro grade tools don't forget the controlling bottlenecks of a router apply no matter what. Often times for cabling, pro grade means better shielding, heavier gauge wire, and less flexibility. In terms of a "Pro grade router," for which I hear arguments about with my coworkers all the time, a very robust casing/enclosure won't get you a better bottom line (worse actually) if you try to rock a two-year-old "Pro-grade" router with an 800 mhz SoC wireless chipset
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Nothing beats the speed and consistency of a well-done wired system. If you want a real thrill, experience wireless in a place where there are over a dozen active access points in range.
That would be my apartment, and I still get 1080p from server wired to router (living room) wirelessly to bridge (bedroom) across the 5Ghz N band
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post #182 of 471 Old 07-11-2012, 06:29 PM
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I have a DIR-655 and it's been rock solid the whole time. Mine is the v1 and I want to upgrade to be able to do IPv6. I got into a discussion with a friend of mine about the Apple routers and he had nothing but high praise for them. Of course, he is Apple-centric and I pretty much expect that in his network. My point was how is its performance in the wild (non-Apple) networks? I've found from reading reviews that they're just as mixed as other routers and they cost more. I'll probably never get a Apple router because, for my needs, I feel there are better choices that cost less.
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post #183 of 471 Old 07-11-2012, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Zon2020 View Post

I'd really have to hear some good reasons why that Apple is better than any of the four I named. Maybe it is and I'm just missing it, but I'd really like to know why.

I do networks everyday. i install and config them. im currently using Pakedge gear. my network range from 2 waps to 16. hundreds of IPs, remote access, streaming devices, the whole nine yards.
my favorite router is the apple airport extreme because its fast, the range is outrageous, it works every time, and its smart. when you plug this thing into a network it knows right away what its doing, if its going to be a bridge, a router, a wap. this thing even gives you a list of errors to fix before you go live on the network with it.

name one Netgear/linksys product that can work this well. you cant. i know ive used all of them. ( not saying they are bad products but that they cant compete with the apple router)

i know people like to hat eon apple but this wireless router just works and it does so better then any other consumer grade router you can buy. its even better then most professional routers.
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post #184 of 471 Old 07-11-2012, 07:49 PM
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Was the part about the best range and speed sopposed to be a joke? There 7 routers from Asus / Cisco etc. that are faster than the Airport Express Extreme model, 2.4Ghz /5Ghz, downlink/uplink speeds.

http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/lanwan/router-charts/bar/67-5-ghz-dn-40

It`s so smart that it doesn`t even have inbound or outbound service control, something that my now 2 year old linksys WRT N610 has, even basic WPS is missing...


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post #185 of 471 Old 07-11-2012, 09:48 PM
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Originally Posted by GreenEyez View Post

Was the part about the best range and speed sopposed to be a joke? There 7 routers from Asus / Cisco etc. that are faster than the Airport Express Extreme model, 2.4Ghz /5Ghz, downlink/uplink speeds.
http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/lanwan/router-charts/bar/67-5-ghz-dn-40
It`s so smart that it doesn`t even have inbound or outbound service control, something that my now 2 year old linksys WRT N610 has, even basic WPS is missing...

You had me until the bolded, and that kinda sucks, because it shows you've never used one. WPS for AEBS is simple.
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post #186 of 471 Old 07-11-2012, 11:47 PM
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Originally Posted by NewOrlnsDukie View Post

You had me until the bolded, and that kinda sucks, because it shows you've never used one. WPS for AEBS is simple.

WPS for the AEBS (Base Station -> Add wireless Client -> by PIN/First Attempt) was removed in Airport Utility version 6.0 . But i`ve never used one, so i don`t know that smile.gif


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post #187 of 471 Old 07-12-2012, 12:15 AM
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Originally Posted by GreenEyez View Post

WPS for the AEBS (Base Station -> Add wireless Client -> by PIN/First Attempt) was removed in Airport Utility version 6.0 . But i`ve never used one, so i don`t know that smile.gif

WPS has been shown to be vulnerable to wireless attack, it is good to see it removed.

The recommended action is to disable WPS in the US-CERT advisory,
http://www.kb.cert.org/vuls/id/723755
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post #188 of 471 Old 07-12-2012, 12:40 AM
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Originally Posted by GreenEyez View Post

WPS for the AEBS (Base Station -> Add wireless Client -> by PIN/First Attempt) was removed in Airport Utility version 6.0 . But i`ve never used one, so i don`t know that smile.gif

Soooo, just so I have it straight, you consider the AEBS outdated because the latest versions of its utility stopped implementing an outdated protocol?

Lemme guess -- the fact that it hasn't defaulted to WEP since I had hair means that it's not a good choice either?
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post #189 of 471 Old 07-12-2012, 07:18 AM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post


If you want a real thrill, experience wireless in a place where there are over a dozen active access points in range.

The sometimes good part of that is most people rarely touch anything in their router outside of security settings. I have around 15 wireless networks around me, and every last one of them are running on the same one of 2 channels that most routers default to (6 and 11 if I remember right)...so while some channels may be better to use signal wise, if you run into that sort of situation, simply using a channel that everyone else isnt on can probably do great things for you. biggrin.gif
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post #190 of 471 Old 07-12-2012, 07:43 AM
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So was there a general consensus ??

I am in market for a new router. We do WIFI for laptops and devices and wired for a SERVER, MAIN PC and HTPC all that stream content from server.

What ROUTER should I get.

Someone give me cliff notes. I will be forever in your debt.

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post #191 of 471 Old 07-12-2012, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

So was there a general consensus ??
I am in market for a new router. We do WIFI for laptops and devices and wired for a SERVER, MAIN PC and HTPC all that stream content from server.
What ROUTER should I get.
Someone give me cliff notes. I will be forever in your debt.

THIS if you are willing to flash DD-WRT or Tomato:
Quote:
Originally Posted by aerosnow88 View Post

http://www.expansys-usa.com/belkin-share-max-n300-wireless-n+router-231205/
I believe this is the best router for the money.
You have gigabit
You have N (not the dual channel stuff)
You can install DDWRT
You can install Tomato
All depends on your needs
Streaming dvd's on the usb port is flawless. It cant handle HD via the USB though.
For $22 shipped, the stock firmware has been rock solid for me.

I find the stock firmware too limiting for anyone but the most basic user, so WRT or Tomato is a must for anyone else. Otherwise it's an absolute steal for $22.

If you have a very large area to cover for wifi, pick up a second (or more) to run as repeaters (WRT/Tomato a must for this)...so even in that case, you end up with even better coverage then high dollar routers that perform extremely well in this aspect while still spending less money.
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post #192 of 471 Old 07-12-2012, 08:23 AM
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Most of the mid to upper end Buffalo routers don't even bother with their own firmware and just come with DD-WRT. Mine's been working great for over a year now. I've never had to do a forced power cycle on it. It isn't the fastest wireless router (only 300mbps) by today's standards of course but if I were buying a replacement today I'd take a strong look at them again due to the reliability and performance of the one I have already.

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post #193 of 471 Old 07-12-2012, 08:29 AM
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Cisco and Asus received the best ratings. I tried both latest Asus is slightly faster, but this is a horrible time to buy a wireless router. It is akin to buying a laptop right before the new Intel chip hits the market.
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post #194 of 471 Old 07-12-2012, 08:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

So was there a general consensus ??
I am in market for a new router. We do WIFI for laptops and devices and wired for a SERVER, MAIN PC and HTPC all that stream content from server.
What ROUTER should I get.
Someone give me cliff notes. I will be forever in your debt.

If you've read through this whole thread, you'll see I ended up buying both a refurbished Cisco E4200V2 (direct from Cisco) and a refurbished Netgear WNDR4000 (from Amazon). So far I've only used the Netgear, but I have to say that so far I'm really happy with it, and at only $69.99, it is clearly the best buy I've found.

Does everything I need, has dual antenna 2.4ghz and triple antenna 5.0ghz, good range, good speed. You can set up guest accounts. Was really easy to configure (and is probably even easier if you use their "wizard" but I opted for manual setup). Has your basic SPI and NAT firewall (but a lot of cheap routers don't.)

Frankly I have yet to see any compelling reason why I need to use open source firmware instead of the proprietary firmware. My reaction is that a lot of the "use DD-WRT/Tomato" is simply more of the same anti-establishment nonsense that often fuels the irrational hatred of all things Intel and Microsoft as well. If it works, it works. Why should I mess with it?

Today, at $69.99 refurbished, the WNDR4000 rates my "best buy" recommendation. At $130 for the street price on a "new" one, I'm not so sure because then there are competitive alternatives. But nothing else at $70 matches it.

One of these days when I get some time (and before my 30 day return window closes) I'll break out the E4200V2 and try it.

If you don't want either of these, I think the ASUS RT-N66U (or the 56 for that matter) would also be a really good choice. And if you want to get a jump on the AC protocol, then the Netgear R6300 seems like the choice.

Edit - BTW, for anything that doesn't have wireless built in and isn't wired, another really good buy in the refurbished world is the Cisco AE1000 dual band dual antenna 300mbps usb wireless adapter at Amazon for $13.99. I've been using a couple of those for a year or so, and they work great, and now with the multi-antenna 5.0ghz Netgear router, they work even better. Much much much better than the typical $15 generic wireless dongle. Cisco on their website also sells reburbished AE1200 and AE2500 models, but I'm not sure what the difference or advantage is.
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post #195 of 471 Old 07-12-2012, 08:46 AM
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Earlier on you couldn't do so much with the factory f/w.. Like user accounts. With mine, I could set up a hotspot and collect $$ if people were to try to connect to it. My ISP frowns on that and I don't think too many people would do it on my residential street. If I lived in a condo downtown it might be different.

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post #196 of 471 Old 07-12-2012, 08:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

Most of the mid to upper end Buffalo routers don't even bother with their own firmware and just come with DD-WRT. Mine's been working great for over a year now. I've never had to do a forced power cycle on it. It isn't the fastest wireless router (only 300mbps) by today's standards of course but if I were buying a replacement today I'd take a strong look at them again due to the reliability and performance of the one I have already.

My Buffalo came with both proprietary firmware and Buffalo's own version of DD-WRT, but I didn't see any difference in performance (I have a AirStation High Power N300 WZR-HP-G300NH that I bought about 2 years ago. It actually cost me more than my new Netgear, but of course it wasn't a refurb)

My Buffalo never needed resetting. It ran very reliably, and I could always get a good connection to the Buffalo. My problem with it was that I was using it in its WAP mode and sometimes it simply wouldn't pass though an IP address from the router so while I was connected to the wireless network I couldn't get connected to the internet. Never had that problem with my previous Linksys WAP54G, and haven't had that problem with my new Netgear.

By the way, N300 like your and my Buffalo is still basically as fast as you need for basic wireless connectivity because the number of triple antenna adapters or devices with triple antenna adapters is extremely limited. If you're trying to set up one specific high-speed connection using triple antenna 450mbps on both ends, then the N450 might be worthwhile, but most tests that I've seen actually show little or no throughput improvement from the extra antenna.
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post #197 of 471 Old 07-12-2012, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Zon2020 View Post

If you've read through this whole thread, you'll see I ended up buying both a refurbished Cisco E4200V2 (direct from Cisco) and a refurbished Netgear WNDR4000 (from Amazon). So far I've only used the Netgear, but I have to say that so far I'm really happy with it, and at only $69.99, it is clearly the best buy I've found.
Does everything I need, has dual antenna 2.4ghz and triple antenna 5.0ghz, good range, good speed. You can set up guest accounts. Was really easy to configure (and is probably even easier if you use their "wizard" but I opted for manual setup). Has your basic SPI and NAT firewall (but a lot of cheap routers don't.)
Frankly I have yet to see any compelling reason why I need to use open source firmware instead of the proprietary firmware. My reaction is that a lot of the "use DD-WRT/Tomato" is simply more of the same anti-establishment nonsense that often fuels the irrational hatred of all things Intel and Microsoft as well. If it works, it works. Why should I mess with it?
Today, at $69.99 refurbished, the WNDR4000 rates my "best buy" recommendation. At $130 for the street price on a "new" one, I'm not so sure because then there are competitive alternatives. But nothing else at $70 matches it.
One of these days when I get some time (and before my 30 day return window closes) I'll break out the E4200V2 and try it.
If you don't want either of these, I think the ASUS RT-N66U (or the 56 for that matter) would also be a really good choice. And if you want to get a jump on the AC protocol, then the Netgear R6300 seems like the choice.
Edit - BTW, for anything that doesn't have wireless built in and isn't wired, another really good buy in the refurbished world is the Cisco AE1000 dual band dual antenna 300mbps usb wireless adapter at Amazon for $13.99. I've been using a couple of those for a year or so, and they work great, and now with the multi-antenna 5.0ghz Netgear router, they work even better. Much much much better than the typical $15 generic wireless dongle. Cisco on their website also sells reburbished AE1200 and AE2500 models, but I'm not sure what the difference or advantage is.

Send me a link via PM?

I need to buy a new router. I need it to do wireless and also hook up my server, HTPC and Desktop wired. Most important is reliable hassle free high performance. Sounds like you might have found a winner for me too.

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post #198 of 471 Old 07-12-2012, 09:09 AM
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oh.. and I did not read every page yet. Special thanks to you for doing so much of the work for me. If you were someone else I might look harder but I have come to trust your judgement and respect your opinion.

I probably agree with you 99% of the time. Your comments on the anti establishment were spot on btw... Hated for all things Microsoft ... haha. I agree if it works it works. That is good for me and all I want.

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post #199 of 471 Old 07-12-2012, 09:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

Send me a link via PM?
I need to buy a new router. I need it to do wireless and also hook up my server, HTPC and Desktop wired. Most important is reliable hassle free high performance. Sounds like you might have found a winner for me too.

Just search on Amazon for WNDR4000. You'll see both the new version for $128 and the "manufacturer refurbished" for $69.

By the way, it also has a 4-port gigabit switch for wired connectivity. Although what I do is run a single wired connection from the WNDR4000 to a separate gigibit switch to which are connected my various wired connections.
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post #200 of 471 Old 07-12-2012, 09:21 AM
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I hardly use the wired portion save for my phone and that is the bottleneck not the router anyhow. I know this is a best wireless router thread and I don't really use wireless router. Sorry to muddy it up. frown.gif

Most current router f/w is just fine these days. DD-WRT came out because of the limited f/w in consumer routers in the not so distant past.

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post #201 of 471 Old 07-12-2012, 09:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zon2020 View Post

Just search on Amazon for WNDR4000. You'll see both the new version for $128 and the "manufacturer refurbished" for $69.
By the way, it also has a 4-port gigabit switch for wired connectivity. Although what I do is run a single wired connection from the WNDR4000 to a separate gigibit switch to which are connected my various wired connections.

I have my Voipo phone switch, my PC, the SiliconDust HDHR Prime and an 8 port gig switch connected to my router. Everything else, including three other switches are connected to that switch.

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post #202 of 471 Old 07-12-2012, 09:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

oh.. and I did not read every page yet. Special thanks to you for doing so much of the work for me. If you were someone else I might look harder but I have come to trust your judgement and respect your opinion.
I probably agree with you 99% of the time. Your comments on the anti establishment were spot on btw... Hated for all things Microsoft ... haha. I agree if it works it works. That is good for me and all I want.

In this thread, there have been quite a few people who swear by the Apple Airport Extreme (and others who hate them), quite a few who like the Cisco E4200 or E4200V2 (and others who hate them), a few who like the Asus, several fans of the Netgear WNDR3700, a couple who like the WNDR4000, and some who like buying $20 wireless routers and installing open source firmware. I was a little surprised that no one seems to use an Amped router. One person uses a Zyxel USG100 (which I think would be a good choice if you were to subscribe to their annual security software packages). And Sammy2 loves the same Buffalo unit that I had trouble with and am replacing.

I was also surprised that I don't think there was a single mention of D-Link. They sell a lot of units (although they're not on my list since I had nothing but problems years ago with their wireless adapters). Just surprised there was not a single vote for a D-Link model.

The one truth is that there is no consensus on this at all.

Now if you really want to go all out, I'd recommend a Zyzel USG50 or a Sonic Wall TZ200 and a $300 or so per year subscription to their security software.

Smallnetbuilder is a good site to read for router reviews.
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post #203 of 471 Old 07-12-2012, 09:29 AM
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I go buy the get what's on sale and at the best price at the time. The Buffalo was on SS at the egg for $60 FS which was a pretty good deal at that time. I really think that there isn't much difference in performance of these things at the consumer level.

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post #204 of 471 Old 07-12-2012, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

I go buy the get what's on sale and at the best price at the time. The Buffalo was on SS at the egg for $60 FS which was a pretty good deal at that time. I really think that there isn't much difference in performance of these things at the consumer level.

Biggest difference is the firmware they are shipped with. If you look 'under the hood' so to speak, most use the same handfull of chipsets and all, roughly all the same level of performance, ram, rom, etc. Some are just a lot more stable and/or offer more or less available settings then others. This is where 3rd party firmware really comes in handy. It's not simply to use something unintended and different, or anti-establishment as mentioned above. It's to get the most out of the hardware you do have or a tool to get the best value with new equipment. The Belkin a few of us had mentioned...it used to be nearly $100 when released...it has the SAME hardware specs as some of these other $60-$100 routers frequently thrown around in this thread...but the firmware on them was crap which resulted in an unstable poorly reviewed router which is now being blown out for cheap. Keeping in mind the hardware underneath...spending a few minutes getting rid of the real problem (the shipped factory firmware) and installing quality open source firmware...you just turned a dud into a gem while spending far less money.
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post #205 of 471 Old 07-12-2012, 10:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zon2020 View Post

Just search on Amazon for WNDR4000. You'll see both the new version for $128 and the "manufacturer refurbished" for $69.
By the way, it also has a 4-port gigabit switch for wired connectivity. Although what I do is run a single wired connection from the WNDR4000 to a separate gigibit switch to which are connected my various wired connections.

Is it 1000 ??

10/100/1000 ?

If you follow my thread here you will see I am having issues:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1419935/help-i-only-get-11mb-sec-transfer-speeds-to-and-from-my-whs2011-media-server-what-should-i-do

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post #206 of 471 Old 07-12-2012, 10:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zon2020 View Post

In this thread, there have been quite a few people who swear by the Apple Airport Extreme (and others who hate them), quite a few who like the Cisco E4200 or E4200V2 (and others who hate them), a few who like the Asus, several fans of the Netgear WNDR3700, a couple who like the WNDR4000, and some who like buying $20 wireless routers and installing open source firmware. I was a little surprised that no one seems to use an Amped router. One person uses a Zyxel USG100 (which I think would be a good choice if you were to subscribe to their annual security software packages). And Sammy2 loves the same Buffalo unit that I had trouble with and am replacing.
I was also surprised that I don't think there was a single mention of D-Link. They sell a lot of units (although they're not on my list since I had nothing but problems years ago with their wireless adapters). Just surprised there was not a single vote for a D-Link model.
The one truth is that there is no consensus on this at all.
Now if you really want to go all out, I'd recommend a Zyzel USG50 or a Sonic Wall TZ200 and a $300 or so per year subscription to their security software.
Smallnetbuilder is a good site to read for router reviews.

I am looking for a good value that will allow me to use my server, desktop and HTPC to full advantage over wired connection- and still allow all my devices to connect wireless with good performance.


Right now I only have 10/100 switch in my crappy router. it's a Linksys wireless WRT120N. It needs constant resetting. Once or twice per week always.

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post #207 of 471 Old 07-12-2012, 10:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

I am looking for a good value that will allow me to use my server, desktop and HTPC to full advantage over wired connection- and still allow all my devices to connect wireless with good performance.
Right now I only have 10/100 switch in my crappy router. it's a Linksys wireless WRT120N. It needs constant resetting. Once or twice per week always.

The WNDR4000 has a 4 port 10/100/1000 switch for wired connections. But, as I said, my preference is to get a 5 or 8 (or whatever number you need) gigabit switch and connect that to one of the router's ports, and then connect all my devices or cable runs to the switch. Plenty of choices in 8 port 10/100/1000 swiches for $30-50.
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post #208 of 471 Old 07-12-2012, 10:49 AM - Thread Starter
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You know, you can set this up two ways. One is to get a wired router and hang off a wireless access point (or a wireless router configured as a wireless access point), or get a wireless router and hang off a wired switch.

Until now, I've always done the former (wired router, wireless access point), and there are some advantages to doing it that way in terms of the load on the router's processor. But right now I'm doing it the second way with a wireless router to which is connected a wired switch. Seems to be working fine so far. But I probably don't put that much load on it.
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I already own a 10/100/1000 Asus switch. It's 8 Port.

I just hooked it up hanging off my router with is a WRT120N linksys and only 10/100 not 1000.

I ran the WRT120N into the Asus 8 port gigaswitch and then hooked quickly my desktop and my server with LAN to the switch.

IT FREAKIN' WORKED!

I got 72MB/sec transfer which is not that fast... but it was way faster than the 10MB I got before.

So the immediate problem has been solved finally.

with the weddings I just have not had time to troubleshoot this yet. I knew it was something like that.

But I still hate my 120N router and think I want something better. So I am still in the market for a router.


Also-


I really want to use the switch in the AV closet I took it from.

How I had it run before was I had one output from the router go to the switch in the AV closet- then I had my Denon AVR3312, Samsung Bluray, Xbox360, TIVOHD, HTPC and etc... all hooked to the switch.

without the switch only the HTPC has an internet connection- and network connection. Which is actually OK since I don't really use the other stuff anyways. But- If I am going to bother hooked it all up I might as well do it properly.

So-

You think I could just get a router that is 10/10/1000 and then feed the switch I have in the AV closet with an output? Hooking the desktop and server in that room up to the new router directly?

Would that be the best solution for my set up? Or should I just get another switch ?

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post #210 of 471 Old 07-12-2012, 11:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

I already own a 10/100/1000 Asus switch. It's 8 Port.
I just hooked it up hanging off my router with is a WRT120N linksys and only 10/100 not 1000.
I ran the WRT120N into the Asus 8 port gigaswitch and then hooked quickly my desktop and my server with LAN to the switch.
IT FREAKIN' WORKED!
I got 72MB/sec transfer which is not that fast... but it was way faster than the 10MB I got before.
So the immediate problem has been solved finally.
with the weddings I just have not had time to troubleshoot this yet. I knew it was something like that.
But I still hate my 120N router and think I want something better. So I am still in the market for a router.
Also-
I really want to use the switch in the AV closet I took it from.
How I had it run before was I had one output from the router go to the switch in the AV closet- then I had my Denon AVR3312, Samsung Bluray, Xbox360, TIVOHD, HTPC and etc... all hooked to the switch.
without the switch only the HTPC has an internet connection- and network connection. Which is actually OK since I don't really use the other stuff anyways. But- If I am going to bother hooked it all up I might as well do it properly.
So-
You think I could just get a router that is 10/10/1000 and then feed the switch I have in the AV closet with an output? Hooking the desktop and server in that room up to the new router directly?
Would that be the best solution for my set up? Or should I just get another switch ?

I'd get another switch right away and put it where the Asus switch was, connecting it to the Asus switch. And then I'd worry about getting either a new wireless router or a wired router and wireless accesss point.

Switches are cheap. You can throw them anywhere in the network and increase the number of connections. I usually put a 5 port switch at the end of each cable run, and I always have a couple of extras sitting around.
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