How would an HTPC compare with the Oppo BDP-93? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 22 Old 07-02-2012, 08:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Out of curiosity, how would an HTPC equipped with a good video card stack up against high-end BD players like the Oppo BDP-93 in terms of video and audio quality? As far as I know, the only thing lacking from HTPCs right now is 24fps support, but is it equal or better as far as everything else goes? The fact that you can do other stuff too with the HTPC is nice, but I'm primarily concerned with quality.
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post #2 of 22 Old 07-02-2012, 08:50 AM
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Quality would be the same. Additionally most of the current video cards do support 24fps. The only issues with the PC is setting it up and maintaining it. This can be difficult for someone without experience. People who just want it to work 100% of the time often just stay with an off the shelf blu-ray player or look at a media player like the Dune or Popcorn Hour.

I prefer a small silent HTPC running XBMC. But I'm willing to spend the time required to make it work correctly.
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post #3 of 22 Old 07-02-2012, 08:57 AM
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You don't even need a video card with most current iGPU's incorporated into the CPU.

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post #4 of 22 Old 07-02-2012, 09:01 AM
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Yeah, I have no problem with the set-up and various PC-related stuff you have to take care of. I've put together plenty of computers in the past, so I'm aware of all the wrinkles that come with that.

But yeah, if the quality would actually be equal to the Oppo.... that's pretty impressive. Every time I switch from watching a BD on my PS3 to using the Oppo, I'm always pleasantly surprised by how much better it looks... so if I can expect that, that would be nice.
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post #5 of 22 Old 07-02-2012, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Chacranajxy View Post

Yeah, I have no problem with the set-up and various PC-related stuff you have to take care of. I've put together plenty of computers in the past, so I'm aware of all the wrinkles that come with that.
But yeah, if the quality would actually be equal to the Oppo.... that's pretty impressive. Every time I switch from watching a BD on my PS3 to using the Oppo, I'm always pleasantly surprised by how much better it looks... so if I can expect that, that would be nice.

Ok, that statement has me concerned over my previous quality statement. I have the Oppo, a HTPC, and the PS3. When using test patterns the Oppo is going to win handles down since it is using a chip specifically designed for playing back high quality video. It will also pass more video tests then either the PS3 or the HTPC. When playing back a standard Blu-ray movie I do not see a significant difference between any of the three players. I'm not a videophile so I may be missing something. Since you do see a difference between the PS3 and Oppo I cannot say how good the video quality would be to your eyes.

If you are discussing DVD playback on the Oppo then this is a different story. The Oppo has significantly better video quality then either the HTPC or the PS3 when playing DVD's. In this case, I would rate the HTPC roughly equal to the PS3 in video quality.

I'm using these devices with a calibrated JVC RS-45 on a Da-lite 106" HP screen. All devices go through my receiver, but the receiver's video processing is disabled for each device.
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post #6 of 22 Old 07-02-2012, 12:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Nitemage View Post

Ok, that statement has me concerned over my previous quality statement. I have the Oppo, a HTPC, and the PS3. When using test patterns the Oppo is going to win handles down since it is using a chip specifically designed for playing back high quality video. It will also pass more video tests then either the PS3 or the HTPC. When playing back a standard Blu-ray movie I do not see a significant difference between any of the three players. I'm not a videophile so I may be missing something. Since you do see a difference between the PS3 and Oppo I cannot say how good the video quality would be to your eyes.
If you are discussing DVD playback on the Oppo then this is a different story. The Oppo has significantly better video quality then either the HTPC or the PS3 when playing DVD's. In this case, I would rate the HTPC roughly equal to the PS3 in video quality.
I'm using these devices with a calibrated JVC RS-45 on a Da-lite 106" HP screen. All devices go through my receiver, but the receiver's video processing is disabled for each device.

Hmm... weird that DVD playback would be noticeably better than on an HTPC. You'd think they'd have that down by now. But I guess that's sorta why I'm asking. Maybe hardware does trump software in this case.
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post #7 of 22 Old 07-02-2012, 10:49 PM
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Originally Posted by UnknownSou View Post

Hmm... weird that DVD playback would be noticeably better than on an HTPC. You'd think they'd have that down by now. But I guess that's sorta why I'm asking. Maybe hardware does trump software in this case.

For that to be the case, the HTPC has to be setup wrong.
Easy, drop in a disk and go, don't think about it, OPPO.
Plays any region, output to VGA, shrink to play on your phone, copy to server, or anything else unique, HTPC.
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post #8 of 22 Old 07-03-2012, 08:05 AM
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Originally Posted by lespurgeon View Post

For that to be the case, the HTPC has to be setup wrong.
Easy, drop in a disk and go, don't think about it, OPPO.
Plays any region, output to VGA, shrink to play on your phone, copy to server, or anything else unique, HTPC.

So you're saying the HTPC should offer the best quality for DVDs, too? What would constitute setting it up properly for this? Dunno if it means just dicking around with some settings in PowerDVD or what.
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post #9 of 22 Old 07-03-2012, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Nitemage View Post

When playing back a standard Blu-ray movie I do not see a significant difference between any of the three players. I'm not a videophile so I may be missing something. Since you do see a difference between the PS3 and Oppo I cannot say how good the video quality would be to your eyes.
If you are discussing DVD playback on the Oppo then this is a different story. The Oppo has significantly better video quality then either the HTPC or the PS3 when playing DVD's. .


i think that an "end user" that uses more complicated renderer`s like (jan wilem`s EVR-CP/MadVr) or Avisynth can produce better image quality than any CE.

i dont think that any CE can produce better scaling than lanczos3 or spline64 + LSF.

there are several posts in oppo`s thread about what scaling it uses but nobody has answered.



I would also like to know about oppo`s media capabilities or if you can do any kind of CMS.
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post #10 of 22 Old 07-03-2012, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Chacranajxy View Post

So you're saying the HTPC should offer the best quality for DVDs, too? What would constitute setting it up properly for this? Dunno if it means just dicking around with some settings in PowerDVD or what.

There are a few routes. I know Arcsoft has a mode called Sim HD. That is their upscale algorithm. FFDshow filters can do this, as can Avisynth. Mad VR is a newer method that has been gaining popularity.


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post #11 of 22 Old 07-07-2012, 09:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by pittsoccer33 View Post

There are a few routes. I know Arcsoft has a mode called Sim HD. That is their upscale algorithm. FFDshow filters can do this, as can Avisynth. Mad VR is a newer method that has been gaining popularity.

Hmm... so basically, I'd maybe need to use different programs to get everything done, but an HTPC will give me the best performance for both BDs and DVDs once it's set up properly?
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post #12 of 22 Old 07-10-2012, 05:51 AM
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Originally Posted by UnknownSou View Post

Hmm... so basically, I'd maybe need to use different programs to get everything done, but an HTPC will give me the best performance for both BDs and DVDs once it's set up properly?

That's so subjective that is so hard to say.

For me personally, I don't do any upscaling on my standard def files. The video card is set to output 1080p at all times, so every video I play it being "upscaled."

I have played with ffdshow and also with SimHD (this one being an automatic setting). I could tell it looked different, but I don't know if it looked better. I guess maybe it did? But I prefer to use the default WMC playback as much as possible.

I think the general consensus among most videophiles now is that Mad VR is capable of the best upscaling algorithms on a pc. Dig around in threads about it for some more info since I'm kind of clueless as to how it needs to be set up.


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post #13 of 22 Old 07-10-2012, 07:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Tony_Montana View Post

i think that an "end user" that uses more complicated renderer`s like (jan wilem`s EVR-CP/MadVr) or Avisynth can produce better image quality than any CE.

The problem with more complex things like ffdshow and Avisynth is that (as of last time I played around) you basically can't come up with a config that works good for all content (film and video), you really need at least two configurations and you need to switch manually before playing each type of media. madVR is nice, but you need to use a "special" player like MPC-HC or the like that can pick custom renderers, and that blows integration.
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i dont think that any CE can produce better scaling than lanczos3 or spline64 + LSF.

I don't know Darbeevision is pretty impressive, and it's plug and play. Sure you can overdo it (it's Full Pop mode is basically worthless), but with moderate setting on the HDTV mode, it's a very nice improvement without any artifacting.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do,
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post #14 of 22 Old 07-10-2012, 11:07 AM
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The problem with more complex things like ffdshow and Avisynth is that (as of last time I played around) you basically can't come up with a config that works good for all content (film and video), you really need at least two configurations and you need to switch manually before playing each type of media.

Actually, you can. ffdshow can load specific profiles (settings) based on a myriad of factors. A common one is to have profiles setup for different resolutions. FFDshow can detect if a video is 720p and call up a specific group of settings, and if it's 1080p call up a different group of settings. It does this automatically. I use this to call up avisynth to smooth out low-bitrate videos, and apply different scaling and sharpening parameters than if I have a native HD source.

Check out this site for the guides on how to setup profiles in ffdshow: http://www.homecinema-hd.com/
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post #15 of 22 Old 07-10-2012, 11:54 AM
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Actually, you can. ffdshow can load specific profiles (settings) based on a myriad of factors. A common one is to have profiles setup for different resolutions. FFDshow can detect if a video is 720p and call up a specific group of settings, and if it's 1080p call up a different group of settings. It does this automatically. I use this to call up avisynth to smooth out low-bitrate videos, and apply different scaling and sharpening parameters than if I have a native HD source.

Yeah, but can it load different profiles for film vs video-based DVDs, eg movies vs TV show DVDs?

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do,
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post #16 of 22 Old 07-10-2012, 01:18 PM
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To me, the "regular" WMC stretching of 4x3 video looks terrible compared to the stretching performed by my Oppo or my Denon AVP. I haven't tried FFDshow or the other programs, though. Part of that is because I'm too busy with two young children and work. I barely have time to keep my two HT computers and assorted gear working, let alone spend hours tweaking and integrating programs.

Bob
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post #17 of 22 Old 07-10-2012, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

Yeah, but can it load different profiles for film vs video-based DVDs, eg movies vs TV show DVDs?

Yes!

You can set a profile based upon a myriad of functions... like frame-rate, resolution, aspect ratios, FourCC match, a specific decoder, a specific directshow filter, specific filenames (with wildcards), a specific application running, a specific volume name, the number of audio channels, and a whole lot more.
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post #18 of 22 Old 07-10-2012, 01:24 PM
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I'd rather look at black pillars than stretched video no mater what is doing the stretching.. But that's just me.

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post #19 of 22 Old 07-10-2012, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Puwaha View Post

Yes!
You can set a profile based upon a myriad of functions... like frame-rate, resolution, aspect ratios, FourCC match, a specific decoder, a specific directshow filter, specific filenames (with wildcards), a specific application running, a specific volume name, the number of audio channels, and a whole lot more.

Problem is pretty much all DVDs are MPEG-2, 480i60 (even if it's "film"), and you're using ffdshow because you want it to do all the processing, so you'll be passing it raw 480i video. And you don't want to let the decoder doing the deinterlacing because it's doing that in software and I've not seen a software decoder that doesn't suck at deinterlacing. But of course you can't have the video card do the deinterlacing and ffdshow.

I watch a good mix of content with a significant amount of "tough" content that's not now and likely will never be on Blu-ray, and I gave up on ffdshow when I realized that it can't tell the difference between a nicely edited, film source Hollywood film that just needs IVTC and some scaling, and something that's mixed film/video and needs to run though a massive AVISynth deinterlacing script. Especially considering video cards or external video processor do as good or better with those tough sources without having to go in and change any settings.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do,
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post #20 of 22 Old 07-10-2012, 10:07 PM
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

Problem is pretty much all DVDs are MPEG-2, 480i60 (even if it's "film"), and you're using ffdshow because you want it to do all the processing, so you'll be passing it raw 480i video. And you don't want to let the decoder doing the deinterlacing because it's doing that in software and I've not seen a software decoder that doesn't suck at deinterlacing. But of course you can't have the video card do the deinterlacing and ffdshow.

The Yadif deinterlacer is not bad. But if you really want to use DXVA for deinterlacing, then FFDshow supports this too.
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post #21 of 22 Old 07-10-2012, 10:34 PM
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

Problem is pretty much all DVDs are MPEG-2, 480i60 (even if it's "film"), and you're using ffdshow because you want it to do all the processing, so you'll be passing it raw 480i video. And you don't want to let the decoder doing the deinterlacing because it's doing that in software and I've not seen a software decoder that doesn't suck at deinterlacing. But of course you can't have the video card do the deinterlacing and ffdshow.
I watch a good mix of content with a significant amount of "tough" content that's not now and likely will never be on Blu-ray, and I gave up on ffdshow when I realized that it can't tell the difference between a nicely edited, film source Hollywood film that just needs IVTC and some scaling, and something that's mixed film/video and needs to run though a massive AVISynth deinterlacing script. Especially considering video cards or external video processor do as good or better with those tough sources without having to go in and change any settings.

Well, XBMC is going to get a native resolution output option, the code is there (adam.h over at the XBMC forums is working at it), just needs to be merged with the mainline trunk of XBMC. So that would make it the first HTPC solution that works with an external VP.

Pull request : https://github.com/xbmc/xbmc/pull/1096

The patch is already tested by the iOS/OS X developers and confirmed working for Win32/Linux/OS X/iOS., and signed for mergin on the OSX/iOS front.


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post #22 of 22 Old 07-10-2012, 10:37 PM
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I'm curious about this too.

From what I've read, there are no software deinterlacing algorithms that come close to the hardware based ones. e.g. the hardware based deinterlacing capabilities of modern GPUs or high end standalone players.

I recall a thread a long time ago on doom9 wondering if anyone could package the deinterlacing capabilities of AMDs vector adaptive deinterlacer into an AVS plugin/script for instance and back then, the discussion did not gain any traction - I think it was just too hard.

The idea was to get a deinterlacer as good as the vector adaptive deinterlacer to then feed that video into FFDShow for the upscaling. Many did not care about the speed either as they were willing to process the video and encode it to store on their media servers.
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