Any input on this - NEW HTPC - Page 4 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #91 of 216 Old 08-30-2012, 11:35 AM
Member
 
rjburke377's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 94
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by goros View Post

I answered this in my post you quoted. Most people are too lazy to remember to regularly back up, and don't do it. That's why they make automated software and hardware that does it for you, and services like carbonite offline backup to do it for them.
With RAID, it's already done.
I have a 16 port enterprise RAID card in my HTPC setup. The situations where RAID-parity helps rescue data in a failure scenario, as opposed to destoying the entire dataset, is questionable. RAID is not a substitute for backup .... not even close. If you really must have RAID then use a method that employs some form of data replication. I believe RAID 6 does not qualify.

Assassin's recommendations, although not cool or technically geeky compared to the allure of RAID, are absolutely the way to go. I've long ago disabled RAID in my setup and just use the enterprise controller for JBOD. The incremental upgrade path is just so much easier.

For precious data I have software to verify file integrity and to mirror files to an off-site filesystem. I really don't have a lot of respect for what RAID offers in a HTPC enviroment.
rjburke377 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #92 of 216 Old 08-30-2012, 12:10 PM
Member
 
StueyLongfellow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Longview, WA
Posts: 20
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I'm just a simple man, but here is what I have been doing the last year. I feel that you must physically backup your movies, I have 450 on my system and there is no way I am going to risk having to redo that. I use 4 sansdigital 5 drive raid enclosures, with 2tb drives. 2 of the enclosures running raid 0 to hold my library, 2 of the enclosures running raid 5 as the backups. Sync toy every night to mirror the data.The reason for the different raids is raid 0 for performance, and if I happen to lose a drive in the primary and the backup at the same time, then I should be able to recover the data on the backup array running raid 5. Probably a crude solution, but it is extremely simple for me. Your initial outlay for the drives and enclosures will be large, but I don't see any way around that, as I stated, given the time needed to build the movie collection, it seems like a physical backup is crucial. I picked up all the enclosures on newegg as open box specials. Make sure you get the ones with eSATA.
StueyLongfellow is offline  
post #93 of 216 Old 08-30-2012, 12:16 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Zon2020's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,716
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by goros View Post

Consider then, that some people suck at backing up their systems and that they don't take the time to do it right. They also don't want to invest the time into re-ripping all their media from the original sources if something happens to their system, and they don't want to pay for offsite line data backup.
Assuming they don't install their OS or programs to a RAID drive that they store media on, viruses and the like should have a limited impact on the media they place there. Also, media files should be write protected.
RAID offers you a way to suffer a hard disk failure inside your computer without losing the media on it that array. For some people, losing a hard drive would lose their family home videos, pictures, and other important files. Unless they back up every day, they could potentially lose SOMETHING between backups that may not be able to be recovered, ever. RAID offers the ability to maintain those files in case a crappy, $99 green hard drive shits the bed 3 years and a day after it's installed.
You don't gain data integrity backing up regularly to another hard drive anyway - all you do is copy the corrupted data from one drive to the next as part of "backing up". (the same as raid, essentially) The only way to guarantee data integrity would be to immediately (as soon after its initial write to the disk) back up or image the data to a one time write optical disc like a bd-r and to archive it someplace safe, to restore the data in all those folders in case of a failure.
It's totally worth using RAID if it's used correctly and realistically. It serves one purpose (2 if you count RAID0). It insulates you against data loss in case of a disk failure without making a backup. It's only as good as the quality of the data on the array, but it usually suffices.
And no one answered my questions about RAID6 yet. frown.gif

So setting up an automatic backup schedule is too much trouble but setting up and properly managing a RAID isn't? Nonsense.

And because people SHOULD be worried about "their family home videos, pictures, and other important files" which is why they need to back them up. Putting them on a RAID doesn't protect them and telling folks it does is a serious disservice.

The difference is that you aren't backing up in real time. Most of the time your failure, infection, or corruption will manifest itself before you back it up and thus will not be replicated on the backup set. And ideally you should have both short term (like daily) backups and longer spaced (like weekly) back up sets so your problem doesn't arise. But if your only approach is to replicate it in real time on a RAID you have no chance at all of preserving a clean data set. Yes, you DO gain data integrity by backing up regularly, and any IT pro would tell you that. Your claim to the contrary is simply untrue.

And as to RAID 6, the reason for this is to have continued fault tolerance during the period from the failure of a disk until the replacement of a disk. In a single parity RAID, the array is essentially the same as a RAID 0 during this period and thus is susceptable to catastrophic failure if a second disk fails. But why in the world do you need this at home? If a disk fails, just shut array down until you can replace the bad drive. You don't need 24/7 uptime for a video server, and you should have a backup anyhow.

This "I have a RAID, my data is safe" is a myth. There seem to be a lot of people here with a false sense of security.
BllDo likes this.
Zon2020 is offline  
post #94 of 216 Old 08-30-2012, 12:18 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Zon2020's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,716
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by StueyLongfellow View Post

I'm just a simple man, but here is what I have been doing the last year. I feel that you must physically backup your movies, I have 450 on my system and there is no way I am going to risk having to redo that. I use 4 sansdigital 5 drive raid enclosures, with 2tb drives. 2 of the enclosures running raid 0 to hold my library, 2 of the enclosures running raid 5 as the backups. Sync toy every night to mirror the data.The reason for the different raids is raid 0 for performance, and if I happen to lose a drive in the primary and the backup at the same time, then I should be able to recover the data on the backup array running raid 5. Probably a crude solution, but it is extremely simple for me. Your initial outlay for the drives and enclosures will be large, but I don't see any way around that, as I stated, given the time needed to build the movie collection, it seems like a physical backup is crucial. I picked up all the enclosures on newegg as open box specials. Make sure you get the ones with eSATA.

This sounds like a good approach.

If you have room on your backup systems, keeping a second backup set (like a weekly set) would be the one significant improvement you could make.
Zon2020 is offline  
post #95 of 216 Old 08-30-2012, 12:21 PM
Member
 
Acesfullup's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 125
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zon2020 View Post

So folks copy enterprise RAIDS for their home (where 24/7 availability isn't really the problem) but ignore the data integrity part of the equation. All the while introducing massive complication into what can be really simple. I just don't get it.

+1

Applying enterprise concepts of storage technologies to consumer-grade MB's, RAID controllers, file systems, and hard drives is hilarious.
Acesfullup is offline  
post #96 of 216 Old 08-30-2012, 12:25 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Jinjuku's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 2,304
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Liked: 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zon2020 View Post

You have to replace the controller with the exact same controller if the controller fails to get your array back, correct?
You have to replace with a controller that is compatible. Not necessarily the same exact controller.
You're gambling that another controller will work with your existing array? Well that's pretty high risk. Have you ever actually tried that? I don't think I've ever seen someone succesfully restore a RAID failure using a different controller. I think the accepted wisdom is that you need the same make/model/revision/drivers as the original. And even then sometimes it won't work.

I didn't say that. Many manufactures have other controllers in their line up that you can transfer the disks to. And yes I have:

Dell
Compaq
HP
IBM

Actually I used to do this stuff for a living.

An audiophile likes to talk about how much they spent and how good it sounds.

A DIY'er likes to talk about how little they spent and how good it sounds.

Jinjuku is offline  
post #97 of 216 Old 08-30-2012, 12:29 PM
AVS Special Member
 
BllDo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Twin Cities
Posts: 1,152
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 109 Post(s)
Liked: 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zon2020 View Post

So setting up an automatic backup schedule is too much trouble but setting up and properly managing a RAID isn't? Nonsense.

Exactly my point.

-




Is it solipsistic in here, or is it just me?
BllDo is offline  
post #98 of 216 Old 08-30-2012, 12:29 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Jinjuku's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 2,304
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Liked: 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

That's my whole point that got lost in the troll posts. Why even mess with a card if you don't have to? With software raid a controller card isn't needed at all and if anything does mess up all of your files and data is accessible on your drives (assuming that particular drive is still working of course). You also have the parity drive as redundancy. And the performance gain of a true hardware raid card isn't needed at all for the home server that is used to stream HD media.

I'm not disagreeing with your points. Software RAID is perfectly fine for home use. What I am swatting down are the non-factual statements that are being made in regards to hardware RAID.

If you want hardware RAID, cached controllers, very good S.M.A.R.T monitor and notification, hotswap, hotspare, or setup a SAN ring for multiple machines etc then hardware is the way to do it. If you have $40K theater I would expect you would see owners willing to splurge on that as a back end.

An audiophile likes to talk about how much they spent and how good it sounds.

A DIY'er likes to talk about how little they spent and how good it sounds.

Jinjuku is offline  
post #99 of 216 Old 08-30-2012, 12:30 PM
Member
 
Acesfullup's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 125
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinjuku View Post

Actually I used to do this stuff for a living.

I think I know why tongue.gif

I kid.
Acesfullup is offline  
post #100 of 216 Old 08-30-2012, 12:31 PM
Member
 
StueyLongfellow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Longview, WA
Posts: 20
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Oh, and by the way

I3 processor 2.93Ghz
MSI p55A-G55 mainboard
Gforce GTX-460 bitstreaming to an
Onyko tx-nr 3007
4gb RAM
I tried a solid state drive for my main, but it didn't work out, so went back to a 7200rpm Hitachi 1tb drive, which is more than sufficient
Silverstone case with no bells or whistles
LG blue ray drive
intelliremote shareware program for the remote control interface
logitech harmony one remote
microsoft bluetooth keyboard and mouse
Media Portal as my movie interface
TotalMedia Theatre 5 as the player

Works for me
StueyLongfellow is offline  
post #101 of 216 Old 08-30-2012, 12:31 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Jinjuku's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 2,304
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Liked: 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by goros View Post

I answered this in my post you quoted. Most people are too lazy to remember to regularly back up, and don't do it. That's why they make automated software and hardware that does it for you, and services like carbonite offline backup to do it for them.
With RAID, it's already done.

RAID is not backup. Period. It won't protect you from a root kit, it won't protect you from a lightning strike, nor virus or malicious file deletion / tampering.

An audiophile likes to talk about how much they spent and how good it sounds.

A DIY'er likes to talk about how little they spent and how good it sounds.

Jinjuku is offline  
post #102 of 216 Old 08-30-2012, 12:37 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Jinjuku's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 2,304
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Liked: 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acesfullup View Post

I think I know why tongue.gif
I kid.

Well there is more money in running your own software dev firm. We actually have two hardware products developed in house that we sell to our competition under a dba biggrin.gif

I can only deal with so many end users or so called 'computer guys' that;

Remove Domain Controllers with out first demoting them and checking the logs to make sure replication and master roles are transferred. Upgrade to the next OS without updating the RAID controller FIRMWARE and BSOD or Kernal Panic. Had one customer put their laser printer on the UPS with a server. That was fun the first time they printed.

That is where I have taken out other RAID controllers with updated firmware, put the drives in and gotten things going again. Take the old card, patch it, then plan for the next downing of the server to install.

An audiophile likes to talk about how much they spent and how good it sounds.

A DIY'er likes to talk about how little they spent and how good it sounds.

Jinjuku is offline  
post #103 of 216 Old 08-30-2012, 12:43 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
assassin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 12,961
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 51 Post(s)
Liked: 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinjuku View Post

I'm not disagreeing with your points. Software RAID is perfectly fine for home use. What I am swatting down are the non-factual statements that are being made in regards to hardware RAID.
If you want hardware RAID, cached controllers, very good S.M.A.R.T monitor and notification, hotswap, hotspare, or setup a SAN ring for multiple machines etc then hardware is the way to do it. If you have $40K theater I would expect you would see owners willing to splurge on that as a back end.

If the AVS census I did is any indication the person with a multiple thousand dollar HTPC is by far in the minority.

I have always stated that software raid isn't a backup. In fact, I have my irreplaceable data on my server, an external hard drive and on crashplan. But for movies I am perfectly happy with the level of protection that FlexRaid provides to me. Is it perfect? Of course not. But its at least better than nothing and costs about as much as I want to spend for "backup" of any sort --- I just don't have the money to have 1:1 backup. And even 1:1 backup, as many of you correctly point out, is not foolproof either.
assassin is offline  
post #104 of 216 Old 08-30-2012, 12:44 PM
Member
 
StueyLongfellow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Longview, WA
Posts: 20
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zon2020 View Post

This sounds like a good approach.
If you have room on your backup systems, keeping a second backup set (like a weekly set) would be the one significant improvement you could make.
T

Theres no room. Once you start ripping movies, addiction sets in. Or maybe I'm just a hoarder.
StueyLongfellow is offline  
post #105 of 216 Old 08-30-2012, 12:47 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Jinjuku's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 2,304
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Liked: 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

If the AVS census I did is any indication the person with a multiple thousand dollar HTPC is by far in the minority.
I have always stated that software raid isn't a backup. In fact, I have my irreplaceable data on my server, an external hard drive and on crashplan. But for movies I am perfectly happy with the level of protection that FlexRaid provides to me. Is it perfect? Of course not. But its at least better than nothing and costs about as much as I want to spend for "backup" of any sort --- I just don't have the money to have 1:1 backup. And even 1:1 backup, as many of you correctly point out, is not foolproof either.

I just want to clear the air where some misinformation is being given out about hardware RAID. I have put in servers more expensive than that in peoples homes. They have money, they want the toys, they get the toys.

Had one guy with a 2.5 million house. 18 theater seats, full KEF 11.2 surround, primo everything and almost $8K worth of Dell server. That was a fun install, until I ran over his dog pulling into his driveway. Wasn't on a leash. Actually sent the mutt a get well basket.
Flerbizky likes this.

An audiophile likes to talk about how much they spent and how good it sounds.

A DIY'er likes to talk about how little they spent and how good it sounds.

Jinjuku is offline  
post #106 of 216 Old 08-30-2012, 12:51 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
assassin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 12,961
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 51 Post(s)
Liked: 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinjuku View Post

I just want to clear the air where some misinformation is being given out about hardware RAID. I have put in servers more expensive than that in peoples homes. They have money, they want the toys, they get the toys.
Had one guy with a 2.5 million house. 18 theater seats, full KEF 11.2 surround, primo everything and almost $8K worth of Dell server. That was a fun install, until I ran over his dog pulling into his driveway. Wasn't on a leash. Actually sent the mutt a get well basket.

Sure. But again, those are by far the minority. I am not really sure what you are saying. That hardware raid is an option for some? Of course. Just not for anywhere near the majority reading this thread or on AVS or elsewhere as it costs much more and doesn't really provide all that much for the AVERAGE HTPC user on AVS.
assassin is offline  
post #107 of 216 Old 08-30-2012, 12:51 PM
AVS Special Member
 
StardogChampion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: New Hampshire, USA
Posts: 3,081
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 74 Post(s)
Liked: 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinjuku View Post

I just want to clear the air where some misinformation is being given out about hardware RAID. I have put in servers more expensive than that in peoples homes. They have money, they want the toys, they get the toys.
Had one guy with a 2.5 million house. 18 theater seats, full KEF 11.2 surround, primo everything and almost $8K worth of Dell server. That was a fun install, until I ran over his dog pulling into his driveway. Wasn't on a leash. Actually sent the mutt a get well basket.

I've read this post a few times now. What's the misinformation about hardware RAID it clears up?

 

 

StardogChampion is offline  
post #108 of 216 Old 08-30-2012, 01:03 PM
AVS Special Member
 
robnix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,800
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 162 Post(s)
Liked: 298
Quote:
Originally Posted by StueyLongfellow View Post

I'm just a simple man, but here is what I have been doing the last year. I feel that you must physically backup your movies, I have 450 on my system and there is no way I am going to risk having to redo that. I use 4 sansdigital 5 drive raid enclosures, with 2tb drives. 2 of the enclosures running raid 0 to hold my library, 2 of the enclosures running raid 5 as the backups. Sync toy every night to mirror the data.The reason for the different raids is raid 0 for performance, and if I happen to lose a drive in the primary and the backup at the same time, then I should be able to recover the data on the backup array running raid 5. Probably a crude solution, but it is extremely simple for me. Your initial outlay for the drives and enclosures will be large, but I don't see any way around that, as I stated, given the time needed to build the movie collection, it seems like a physical backup is crucial. I picked up all the enclosures on newegg as open box specials. Make sure you get the ones with eSATA.

I've got 13 drives connected to cheap LSI JBOD cards and Flexraids drive pooling. I only use one parity drive. After parity and FS overhead I have about 23TB of usable data.

If I lose more than one drive in the pool, I only have to rerip the movies that were on those drives, the rest of the data stays intact and the pool can be recreated. I dump my movie list into a csv file weekly so it'll be easy to compare what's missing if this ever happens. I've made it through a single drive failure twice with this setup.

In the case of catastrophic failure, I'll still have access to the data on any surviving drives, and can recreate the pool using whatever hardware is available. The only thing I need is enough SATA ports.

I'm at 12TB of movies at this point and have about another 20-30 blu-rays and 100 or so DVD's to go. I have a 12X Blu-ray drive with riplock removed and can dump up to 4 blu-ray disks or a dozen DVD's an hour into an MKV file with makemkv.

Any data that's important, like family photos and documents gets backed up with Spideroak to both offsite storage and my desktop.

JBOD and software drive pooling is really the way to go for a home file server, you simply don't need that much redundancy for data that you already have backed up on disc. You're losing a lot of space to lose to parity and backup space when it's really not necessary. You're not going to gain much of a performance edge over a drive pool with that setup either. Your network will be the bottleneck before drive speed or drive latency issues come into play.

Looky here!
robnix is online now  
post #109 of 216 Old 08-30-2012, 01:10 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Jinjuku's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 2,304
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Liked: 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by StardogChampion View Post

I've read this post a few times now. What's the misinformation about hardware RAID it clears up?

Read my first post in this thread...

An audiophile likes to talk about how much they spent and how good it sounds.

A DIY'er likes to talk about how little they spent and how good it sounds.

Jinjuku is offline  
post #110 of 216 Old 08-30-2012, 01:12 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Jinjuku's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 2,304
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Liked: 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by robnix View Post

Any data that's important, like family photos and documents gets backed up with Spideroak to both offsite storage and my desktop.
JBOD and software drive pooling is really the way to go for a home file server, you simply don't need that much redundancy for data that you already have backed up on disc. You're losing a lot of space to lose to parity and backup space when it's really not necessary. You're not going to gain much of a performance edge over a drive pool with that setup either. Your network will be the bottleneck before drive speed or drive latency issues come into play.

Yep, that would be the way to do it for home use. Spot on

An audiophile likes to talk about how much they spent and how good it sounds.

A DIY'er likes to talk about how little they spent and how good it sounds.

Jinjuku is offline  
post #111 of 216 Old 08-30-2012, 01:17 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
assassin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 12,961
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 51 Post(s)
Liked: 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by robnix View Post

JBOD and software drive pooling is really the way to go for a home file server, you simply don't need that much redundancy for data that you already have backed up on disc. You're losing a lot of space to lose to parity and backup space when it's really not necessary. You're not going to gain much of a performance edge over a drive pool with that setup either. Your network will be the bottleneck before drive speed or drive latency issues come into play.

Well except that it only costs about $50 (or zero depending on what you want to use) plus the cost of 1 parity drive for most people to use a software raid server. That's much more feasible and the performance is plenty good for the HTPC platform.
assassin is offline  
post #112 of 216 Old 08-30-2012, 01:28 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Zon2020's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,716
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinjuku View Post

I didn't say that. Many manufactures have other controllers in their line up that you can transfer the disks to. And yes I have:
Dell
Compaq
HP
IBM
Actually I used to do this stuff for a living.

Don't try to make it sound like this is easy or foolproof or that you can just slap any new controller in there and it will work like a charm. If you did this for a living, you know better than that.

All the companies that you named sell very expensive enterprise servers and as part of their product support go out of their way to make sure that replacement parts are available. So when you spend $20,000 on a Poweredge server and spend thousands more on an annual service contract, they may be expected to replace a faulty controller.

How do you think that's going to work with some $150 RAID card someone bought at Newegg to slap in an old Core2Duo machine for their basement video server? Hardly equivalent, is it?
Zon2020 is offline  
post #113 of 216 Old 08-30-2012, 01:32 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Zon2020's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,716
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by StueyLongfellow View Post

T
Theres no room. Once you start ripping movies, addiction sets in. Or maybe I'm just a hoarder.

Or maybe you need more drives. biggrin.gif
Zon2020 is offline  
post #114 of 216 Old 08-30-2012, 02:15 PM
AVS Special Member
 
EricN's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 1,243
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 62 Post(s)
Liked: 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

Well except that it only costs about $50 (or zero depending on what you want to use) plus the cost of 1 parity drive for most people to use a software raid server. That's much more feasible and the performance is plenty good for the HTPC platform.

Multiple people are telling you, "That's a bad idea.", and you keep countering with "but it's really cheap to implement!"

I think you are missing the point.
EricN is offline  
post #115 of 216 Old 08-30-2012, 02:23 PM
AVS Special Member
 
BllDo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Twin Cities
Posts: 1,152
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 109 Post(s)
Liked: 96
I'm not reading anyone say software raid is a bad idea. Plenty of people are saying hardware raid is not the best idea for an HTPC.

-




Is it solipsistic in here, or is it just me?
BllDo is offline  
post #116 of 216 Old 08-30-2012, 02:56 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
assassin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 12,961
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 51 Post(s)
Liked: 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricN View Post

Multiple people are telling you, "That's a bad idea.", and you keep countering with "but it's really cheap to implement!"
I think you are missing the point.

Are you reading the same thread?
assassin is offline  
post #117 of 216 Old 08-30-2012, 07:00 PM
Member
 
drparker151's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 43
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinjuku View Post

I'm not disagreeing with your points. Software RAID is perfectly fine for home use. What I am swatting down are the non-factual statements that are being made in regards to hardware RAID.
If you want hardware RAID, cached controllers, very good S.M.A.R.T monitor and notification, hotswap, hotspare, or setup a SAN ring for multiple machines etc then hardware is the way to do it. If you have $40K theater I would expect you would see owners willing to splurge on that as a back end.
I agree with this and if I had a 40k theater I probably also be looking at dedupe backup as well. I also agree with the points Assassin makes, that the low cost hardware RAID is crap and the benefits of good hardware RAID are probably not justifiable for a HT.


As a server expert all this RAID talk is funny to read. To do Hardware Raid correctly, takes money. You must use a top tier manufacture for the controller, the controller will cost more than your motherboard and CPU combined that are typically used in HT. The point of RAID is not as a backup, it is to reduce the need to restore,Ie: RAID 5, or for performance RAID 0. Good RAID cards can do multiple parity drives. They also have large power reserves via batteries or capacitors so they can flush the cache in the event of a power failure. The top manufactures make sure new cards are backward compatible with the arrays built by older generations. The only time you have an issues is when the drive tech changes like when drives changed from parallel SCSI to Serial SCSI but you have time to transition, typically years.

Backup is only as good as the last time it was tested.


My question for the group. If you don't need performance, you don't need high availability, don't want to spend the money and you have good backups why bother with RAID of any kind. My point if you not doing high quality hardware RAID why add the complexity of a software layer that could screw up and lose data?

Most down time is caused by software or Humans not hardware failures.
drparker151 is offline  
post #118 of 216 Old 08-30-2012, 07:09 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
assassin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 12,961
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 51 Post(s)
Liked: 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by drparker151 View Post

I agree with this and if I had a 40k theater I probably also be looking at dedupe backup as well. I also agree with the points Assassin makes, that the low cost hardware RAID is crap and the benefits of good hardware RAID are probably not justifiable for a HT.

why add the complexity of a software layer that could screw up and lose data? Most down time is caused by software or Humans not hardware failures.

You make some good points but what lost data? If FlexRaid "screws up" or even if your OS drive craps out all of your data is left untouched and 100% accessible immediately when you connect the drives to another Windows based PC. You don't need another instance of FlexRaid, a specific controller, another backup controller, the same motherboard/hardware, or anything else as the data is left untouched. This is in stark contrast to what happens in a lot of other hardware raid scenarios.

The benefits? Again, you get some data protection (notice that again I didn't say "backup") via parity with relatively minimal investment, pooling, backup of client PCs, automatic backup of specific folders on your network, etc etc.

I am open to hearing some drawbacks to software raid for HTPC. I think its an ideal option for our platform and have been banging this drum for months.
assassin is offline  
post #119 of 216 Old 08-30-2012, 07:58 PM
Member
 
drparker151's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 43
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

You make some good points but what lost data? If FlexRaid "screws up" or even if your OS drive craps out all of your data is left untouched and 100% accessible immediately when you connect the drives to another Windows based PC. You don't need another instance of FlexRaid, a specific controller, another backup controller, the same motherboard/hardware, or anything else as the data is left untouched. This is in stark contrast to what happens in a lot of other hardware raid scenarios.
The benefits? Again, you get some data protection (notice that again I didn't say "backup") via parity with relatively minimal investment, pooling, backup of client PCs, automatic backup of specific folders on your network, etc etc.
I am open to hearing some drawbacks to software raid for HTPC. I think its an ideal option for our platform and have been banging this drum for months.

I think part of difference of opinion is you use the generic term software RAID, when you're thinking about the features and the way FlexRaid is implemented. I was thinking about many generic software raid implementations that could corrupt all data if they went sideways. Thanks for pointing me to FlexRaid it's interesting and I'll dig into it. I work for a major hardware manufacture who OEMs storage and servers to the company that provide IPTV solutions to the likes of Comcast, AT&T, etc. So performance and uptime vs cost vs lost revenue are the topics we dig into usually.
drparker151 is offline  
post #120 of 216 Old 08-30-2012, 08:05 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
assassin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 12,961
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 51 Post(s)
Liked: 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by drparker151 View Post

I think part of difference of opinion is you use the generic term software RAID, when you're thinking about the features and the way FlexRaid is implemented. I was thinking about many generic software raid implementations that could corrupt all data if they went sideways. Thanks for pointing me to FlexRaid it's interesting and I'll dig into it. I work for a major hardware manufacture who OEMs storage and servers to the company that provide IPTV solutions to the likes of Comcast, AT&T, etc. So performance and uptime vs cost vs lost revenue are the topics we dig into usually.

There are others as well. FlexRaid just happens to be my favorite, the one I recommend, and the one I use personally.
assassin is offline  
Reply Home Theater Computers

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off