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post #1 of 21 Old 09-02-2012, 12:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Here's what I'm looking at for my new PVR Build:

LIAN LI PC-Q25B
ASRock Z77E-ITX
Intel Core i5-3570K
CORSAIR CWCH60 (CPU Cooler)
Kingston HyperX Blu 4GB (2 x 2GB)
Kingston HyperX 3K SH103S3/120G (for OS)

For local recording storage I'd like some suggestions on an eSata RAID5 set up. Since the MB only has one expansion slot limited sata ports, I'm looking for an adapter card and 4-bay system (capable of 3TB drives). Dual eSATA RAIDs would be a plus!

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post #2 of 21 Old 09-02-2012, 09:49 AM
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Sabio DM4 or DM4-LH are probably good choices. I have CM200 which is a NAS.

Added:
I was tempted to try Sans Digital boxes but I have a large server now so external boxes are no longer as needed. The TR5M+ seems to be good for your purpose. Sabio DM-4 doesn't support 3TB HDDs but DM4-LH can.
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post #3 of 21 Old 09-02-2012, 11:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Will I need an adapter card for those, or will the eSATA port on the MB be enough?
Since I'm using 32Bit OS, does the controller in the NAS allow the OS to access storage > 2TB?

Another question... I can potentially be recording ~6 OTA HD shows at a time. Will the eSATA (3Gb/s) be able to sustain that? Or would I be better off with an internal RAID5? Hell, the SnapStream Hydra (from 2005!) recorded 10 shows at a time to a single drive, so I have a feeling that I shouldn't have a problem with the eSATA.

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post #4 of 21 Old 09-02-2012, 03:12 PM
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There are two issues here:
1. 3Gb/s vs 6Gb/s eSATA ports
I think that ASRock MB has a 3Gb/s eSATA port. The Sans Digital TR5M+ gives you a 6Gb/s eSATA card.
2. RAID5 management
If you use the MB eSATA port, you need to use the RAID SW ASRock gives you or a 3rd part SW RAID program. The Sans Digital TR5M+ includes a RR622 card which should have both a BIOS level management user interface and a browser style management interface.

Most of us don't use RAID for recorded content. I use JBOD for these and use RAID for things like photographs and documents. I've never done 6 recordings at a time.
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post #5 of 21 Old 09-02-2012, 04:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks, the TR5M+ looks like a promising option.

Use of the RAID isn't for long term storage but mainly for the increased disk throughput of recording.

I was also thinking of using the HighPoint RocketRAID 640 and use the internal drive bays for a RAID5, but wanted to go external to keep internal temperatures low.

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post #6 of 21 Old 09-02-2012, 08:35 PM
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Since you are using water cooling, temperature inside the case should not be a problem. Here is temperature record inside my server over a period of several weeks. The CPU is a 35W TDP G530 with a standard HSF. There are 9 HDD and 1 SSD inside. AUXFAN is input in front of the HDD rack and SYSFAN is at back of the case. Both are controlled by thermistors. You can see the range over several weeks had been very stable with the fans controlling temperature by themselves.


You may consider replacing the standard PC-Q25B front fan with a temperature controlled fan or a PWM fan.

With a normal CPU HSF and a large fan PSU, the Lian Li case arrangement may have them fighting for air. Since you are using water cooling, a good PSU should manage the exit air. I have a smaller PC-Q07B and I use a Dynatron K666 placed vertically to avoid this problem.

I have several Highpoint cards but not the 640.
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post #7 of 21 Old 09-26-2012, 03:07 PM - Thread Starter
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So perhaps the TRM5+ as discussed or [http://www.sansdigital.com/towerraid-/tr8mplusb.html]8-Disk[/url] TowerRAID is the way to go, since they come with their own port multiplier and it uses 2 connectors to the bay, I'm thinking that accomplishes what I want, the throughput I need and externalizing my storage.

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post #8 of 21 Old 09-26-2012, 04:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Burns View Post

Here's what I'm looking at for my new PVR Build:
For local recording storage I'd like some suggestions on an eSata RAID5 set up. Since the MB only has one expansion slot limited sata ports, I'm looking for an adapter card and 4-bay system (capable of 3TB drives). Dual eSATA RAIDs would be a plus!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Burns View Post

Will I need an adapter card for those, or will the eSATA port on the MB be enough?
Since I'm using 32Bit OS, does the controller in the NAS allow the OS to access storage > 2TB?
Another question... I can potentially be recording ~6 OTA HD shows at a time. Will the eSATA (3Gb/s) be able to sustain that? Or would I be better off with an internal RAID5? Hell, the SnapStream Hydra (from 2005!) recorded 10 shows at a time to a single drive, so I have a feeling that I shouldn't have a problem with the eSATA.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Burns View Post

Thanks, the TR5M+ looks like a promising option.
Use of the RAID isn't for long term storage but mainly for the increased disk throughput of recording.
I was also thinking of using the HighPoint RocketRAID 640 and use the internal drive bays for a RAID5, but wanted to go external to keep internal temperatures low.

I really don't think you need to worry about the disk throughput for 6 recordings. In response to the question (a little modified), can a 3Gb/s SATA connection handle 6 OTA HD recordings at once? I'd say yes for the following reasons
  1. OTA HD bitrate ceiling is around 20 Mbps
  2. 20 Mbps is a measly 2.5 MB/s
  3. The theoretical write on a Barracuda XT is 180 MB/s
  4. People over at the missingremote forums have reported recording 4 shows while watching 1 on a green drive w/o problems
  5. How often are there 6 simultaneous shows you want to record? I have a hard time finding one show that I want to watch, but different strokes I suppose

If you are dead set on the ITX build, I'd recommend this board. Then add some 7200 rpm drives and use the mobo's builtin JBOD, it will be plenty fast. Or save a little money and move to a microATX build
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post #9 of 21 Old 09-26-2012, 04:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Dark_Slayer for the tech info on the throughput. cool.gif

I was going with this particular MB for the Z77 Chipset which I was thinking is "better". I just read the comparison of Z77 vs H77 and since this will be a simple HTPC (running BeyondTV), the H77 chipset will still suffice.

I was actually thinking of changing to a MicroATX MB, any suggestions? biggrin.gif

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post #10 of 21 Old 09-26-2012, 06:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Burns View Post

Thanks Dark_Slayer for the tech info on the throughput. cool.gif
I was going with this particular MB for the Z77 Chipset which I was thinking is "better". I just read the comparison of Z77 vs H77 and since this will be a simple HTPC (running BeyondTV), the H77 chipset will still suffice.
I was actually thinking of changing to a MicroATX MB, any suggestions? biggrin.gif
Here's how I evaluate current processor/mobo deals
  • Microcenter extended the $50 off z77 to an i3 this past week link
  • The cheapest I can find any H6X and H7X board has been $50
  • For $60 (with the purchase of an i3-3225 for $130) you can get an Asrock z77 Pro4-M
  • For $10 difference, I'd buy the z77 every time
  • If you're going with the i5-3570k definitely go for one of the z77s
  • For mATX here are some z77 at microcenter (I own and like the Asrock) link
  • Lots of people go for a $50 H61 and $50 G630, and it's good value for a low power playback system

All of these require a microcenter visit, but since they are printed advertisements you can typically get Fry's to pricematch. If neither of those are options, then z77 is not worth the extra price on Newegg.

I'd never really seen BeyondTV before, but out of curiosity what are you planning to use it for? Windows builtin WMC has almost the same feature set (more features with some of the addin programs, but only if you're into tweaking)
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post #11 of 21 Old 09-26-2012, 06:51 PM
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Anyone happen to know if the microcenter deal was just a one time thing? It ended on 9/23/12.
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post #12 of 21 Old 09-26-2012, 10:11 PM - Thread Starter
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With WMC you have a tuner limit (unless you use a tweak), plus DRM.
I've been using BTV since 2008 and it "just works".

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post #13 of 21 Old 10-10-2012, 11:07 PM - Thread Starter
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So, here's my build list:
PCPartPicker part list
CPU: Intel Core i5-3570K 3.4GHz Quad-Core Processor ($179.99 @ Microcenter)
CPU Cooler: Corsair Hydro Series H60 74.4 CFM Liquid CPU Cooler ($54.99 @ CompUSA)
Motherboard: Asus P8H77-I Mini ITX LGA1155 Motherboard ($99.99 @ Newegg)
Memory: Kingston 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR3-1333 Memory ($34.99 @ Newegg)
Storage: Kingston HyperX 3K 120GB 2.5" Solid State Disk ($99.99 @ Newegg)
Case: BitFenix Prodigy (Black) Mini ITX Tower Case ($79.99 @ NCIX US)
Power Supply: SeaSonic 650W 80 PLUS Gold Certified ATX12V / EPS12V Power Supply ($146.29 @ Newegg)
Total: $696.23

I changed the MB and case as suggested to allow for internal drives.

I'm still in storage analysis-paralysis though. Not sure if I want to use an internal RAID for recording and offload the files to a larger volume attached SansDigital storage array.
Or installing 3TB (4x) drives as RAID 0 and the SansDigital Storage Array as RAID 0. BeyondTV has a process where I can copy a recording to the storage array as backup.

{sigh} I know I'm probably overthinking this for a simple DVR, but we've lost some files due to HDD failures in the past and the WAF was at an all-time low. I'm trying to avoid that again get the best performance/reliability. Decisions, decisions.

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post #14 of 21 Old 10-10-2012, 11:11 PM
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I would personally build a $350 G540 playback PC and buy a 6 bay NAS like so:

http://www.qnap.com/en/index.php?lang=en&sn=822&c=351&sc=513&t=518&n=9788

which can hold 24TB. That is simple, and there is no need for adapter cards or RAID headaches. The WAF should be high too. Connect via Gigabit ethernet and you good to go. That NAS also has more features that you could possibly use and is fully loaded for SATA 6 and USB 3 so its fully ready for whatever you have in mind.
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post #15 of 21 Old 10-10-2012, 11:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Using the PSU Calculator, I could go with half the wattage on the PSU.

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post #16 of 21 Old 10-11-2012, 01:14 AM
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I don't know why nobody has pointed this out yet, but your going way over board for a simple dvr setup. First off your CPU is way overpowered for what you need it do. This is an unlocked chip, but the board you selected doesn't let you overclock. Probably the most the most glaring fault is trying to Raid-0 mechanical drives. You complained about loosing files before. This is a disaster waiting to happen. I can not stress this enough. Do not do this. One little hiccup that wouldn't be noticeable on a single drive will loose you all your data. You are right about the PSU though you can go with something less powerful.

Here is what I'm going to suggest. Lets just rethink this. I think a lot of these compromises are being forced by the ITX form factor. I don't know if your in love with that case or something, but you'd be much better served with a M-ATX board. I see you plan on getting the CPU at Microcenter. If you go with a M-ATX board you could take advantage of the discount and get a nice Z77 board cheap. That way you could take advantage of the unlocked CPU. Even better would be getting the i3-3225. Microcenter has got the same discount on motherboards with that chip. I just built one because of that discount with a i3-3225 and a ASRock Z77 board. This thing is great. If built a lot of HTPC's. This thing is the best I've seen. Everything is so fast it isn't even funny. The HD4000 GPU can even do madVR. I'm sure it has enough power to do what you want. By the way, I've got that CPU cooler you chose. I don't think it's a good choice for a HTPC. It doesn't have any sort of fan speed control. So it's going to be a lot louder then you'd want.

Going with a larger case would let you fit more internal drives also. You were concerned about speed for recording. Those port multipliers you were talking about are the worst thing possible for speed. I wouldn't trust them for one stream let alone six. I know I've recorded 5 streams, possibly 6 on my single 1TB internal drive. Those new 3TB are significantly faster than my older drive. I wouldn't think you'd have any problem with a single drive. Worst case scenario I would raid two smaller drives and then promptly move the files off it. Or maybe a SSD. I really don't think this is necessary though. Just please don't RAID-0 4 3TB drives.

Look it's the middle of the night. I was planning on being in bed a while ago, I'm so tired I can't hardly focus on the screen as I type. I just saw this and had to say something. I really am not trying to rude. I'm just trying to save you from yourself. Please think your build over. I think your going down a dangerous path, your WAF factor could take a big nose dive.
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post #17 of 21 Old 10-11-2012, 06:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Thank you duff99 for the input. It is well received.

A couple of notes. I'm not dead set on mITX, but like the SFF it offers. The MB and Prodigy give me the ports and bays I need.

I wanted a CPU with enough horsepower as there are some post-processing actions that occur on the recordings:
  • Commercial skipping
  • Transcoding / compression
In my current PVR I have a QX6700 that has proven that it's not up to the task. I get a lot of performance issues when trying to record or view while the commercial skipping is working, so I turned that option off. I haven't even tried doing transcoding/compression namely for that reason. I may also install Plex or some other media server software, possibly even switch to NextPVR from BTV. Not sure yet, I may just keep it a dedicated PVR.

As far as RAID 0, I understand the risk of losing data and I was only considering that with a RAID 0 eSATA storage as a backup or possibly a NAS. Technically no different than having 1 drive for recording and another for backup.

Because of the post-processing, I wanted to make sure the CPU was kept cool. Although the PC will be in another room away from the TV, silence is still key. Not sure if upgrading to H100 would be more silent or not. Though I'm certainly open to suggestions on silent coolers. smile.gif

Not that it was mentioned, but there's no need for a dedicated video card as this is a server only. I have extenders on the TVs for viewing. Unless the GPU is best suited for the tasks of commercial skipping and transcoding, then I would only need one capable of those tasks and obviously not "top-of-the-line".

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post #18 of 21 Old 10-11-2012, 03:31 PM
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I'm glad my input it was well received. Well it does seem that you have a valid use for the CPU. My i5-3570k doesn't even break a sweat doing the commercial scanning, or transcoding for live steaming to my phone. Keep in mind this is my main system, my HTPC's all use much less powerful chips. Everything still comes down to your choice of case. I think you would be better served with a slightly larger case that can fit a M-ATX board. That way you could at least take advantage of the Microcenter discount. Since you've got a unlocked CPU you really should have a board that can take advantage of it. Now this goes hand in hand with the cooler. I think your going to have a lot of fun getting the H60 in that case. I don't think the H100 would even fit. I've got one of those too. It takes up more space than it looks like you've got. If the H80 would fit maybe that would be an option. It cools almost as well as the H100, takes up less space, and has the speed fan control. What I would do is stick with the stock cooler at first. As long as your not trying to push a big over clock it will get the job done. It's also reasonably quiet. Certainly more quiet the the H60.

I think you really need to decide if you need to go ITX. A small M-ATX case isn't much larger, but lets you do a lot more. I think that since it's going in another room the form factor shouldn't be the deciding factor. Good luck.
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post #19 of 21 Old 12-28-2012, 07:49 PM - Thread Starter
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I still haven't dropped the cash on this.

I'm rethinking the CPU cooler.
Could I get away with using the stock CPU cooler or should I get something like the Cooler Master Hyper 212 EVO?

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post #20 of 21 Old 12-28-2012, 08:38 PM
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run the stock cooler and see what ya think, its easy to change if needed.
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post #21 of 21 Old 12-29-2012, 12:25 AM
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To OP:
I have the similar layout but smaller PC-Q11. The CPU HSF and PSU fan will be facing each other and fight for air. I did the following to avoid this:

1. Used the Dynatron K666 HSF and mounted it vertical flow, fan on bottom. Air is pulled from bottom and exit out the top.
2. Used a small FSP 300-60GHS micro ATX PSU and a full size adapter plate. The smaller size gave a bit more room inside the case. If you elect to mount it with fan out, there will be enough space between the PSU fan and side panel for good airflow.

This setup overcome the space issue inside these Lian Li vertical cases. The K666 is a slower RPM version of the higher airflow K650 and a bit quieter. You can see the Dynatron HSF just behind the FSP PSU.



Some MBs such as Zotac, ASRock have the USB headers at the far corner and I had to get a USB extension cable.
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