24p is not an issue? Really? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 20 Old 10-03-2012, 04:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Hey all, I'm just now back into reading this forum as I just built another htpc (built my first a couple of years ago) and I've been scanning some threads about 24p playback issues. Am I correct in stating that many don't see 24p playback as an issue worth fixing?

I mean, I can't stand the judder at all.. I think that's why I went away from watching my ripped content until recently when I went out and got a separate video card for my first htpc (original i3 cpu)... the playback just sucked. It's so distracting to me.

So, is the issue that some people just don't notice it, or is it similar to the audio arguements (alll amps sound the same, etc.)? Because if it's the later, I'm willing to take a bet with anyone that I can tell when it's happening.

Anyway, I went with a frield's recommendation and used an AMD this time around and it's much better.
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post #2 of 20 Old 10-03-2012, 04:30 PM
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What are you using as playback software? You shouldn't have had much different playback than the i3.
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post #3 of 20 Old 10-03-2012, 06:49 PM
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I just stopped caring... I could only see a difference during the credits. 23.976fps is too low, camera pans still look bad

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post #4 of 20 Old 10-04-2012, 07:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrkazador View Post

I just stopped caring... I could only see a difference during the credits. 23.976fps is too low, camera pans still look bad

I think there's a lot of confusion about 23.976 hz on this forum. You can not simply playback 23.976 and expect things to look good. You need both proper playback software on your HTPC AND a proper TV to display the 23.976 signal. Really, only a handful of televisions properly handle 23.976 hz content, and they usually do it by converting the 23.976 hz signal to some multiple of 24 or by converting it to 60 hz. Proper playback of 23.976 content should not make camera pans look bad. In fact, the point is the exact opposite.
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post #5 of 20 Old 10-04-2012, 08:25 AM
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There seem to be 4 camps on this forum concerning the 24p 'bug'.

1. Those who dont see it.
2. Those who see it but dont care.
3. Those who get extremely bothered by it.
and
4. Those who try to convince others that they are wrong if if they claim it bothers them......

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post #6 of 20 Old 10-04-2012, 09:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dan4081 View Post

There seem to be 4 camps on this forum concerning the 24p 'bug'.
1. Those who dont see it.
2. Those who see it but dont care.
3. Those who get extremely bothered by it.
and
4. Those who try to convince others that they are wrong if if they claim it bothers them......

5. Those (mainly from the #3 camp) who insult #1 or #2 and tell them that they are "ignorant" because they don't recognize it as a major problem worth almost abandoning HTPC
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post #7 of 20 Old 10-04-2012, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lockdown571 View Post

I think there's a lot of confusion about 23.976 hz on this forum. You can not simply playback 23.976 and expect things to look good. You need both proper playback software on your HTPC AND a proper TV to display the 23.976 signal. Really, only a handful of televisions properly handle 23.976 hz content, and they usually do it by converting the 23.976 hz signal to some multiple of 24 or by converting it to 60 hz. Proper playback of 23.976 content should not make camera pans look bad. In fact, the point is the exact opposite.
Agreed. I think a lot of people confuse the 24p bug with telecine judder.
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post #8 of 20 Old 10-04-2012, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post


5. Those (mainly from the #3 camp) who insult #1 or #2 and tell them that they are "ignorant" because they don't recognize it as a major problem worth almost abandoning HTPC

6. Those of us who have no clue what it even means, much less would know what to look for (aka, the ignorance is bliss camp)


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post #9 of 20 Old 10-04-2012, 10:28 AM
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For me, things got even more confusing in situations where you have proper 24p (23.976) playback, but the film material iteself has inherent judder.... I thought for the longest time that 24p would eliminate all judder which hasn't been the case for me. I think back to that poker table scene in Casion Royale where the camera pans around the table - its still "juddery" even with 24p. I am still a rather newb in this area, so I'm not really certain how often this occurs in other movies...(would be curious to know).

I guess I'm in the #2 camp somewhat but use frame interpolation with 24p material... blasphemy, I know.
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post #10 of 20 Old 10-04-2012, 10:52 AM
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Where's the "see it, know it exists and fix it best they can but let it go after that" camp?

That's me. I'm happy at 23.9758fps and don't see any issues at all.

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post #11 of 20 Old 10-04-2012, 11:48 AM
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I'm a person who knows it exists, isn't sure exactly what it is, sometimes thinks he notices it, but doesn't pursue further knowledge because it could very well turn into a major annoyance....yup lol.
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post #12 of 20 Old 10-04-2012, 12:27 PM
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looks like I should have added a 7, 8 and 9....

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post #13 of 20 Old 10-04-2012, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lockdown571 View Post


I think there's a lot of confusion about 23.976 hz on this forum. You can not simply playback 23.976 and expect things to look good. You need both proper playback software on your HTPC AND a proper TV to display the 23.976 signal. Really, only a handful of televisions properly handle 23.976 hz content, and they usually do it by converting the 23.976 hz signal to some multiple of 24 or by converting it to 60 hz. Proper playback of 23.976 content should not make camera pans look bad. In fact, the point is the exact opposite.

 

My tv and monitor can do 23.976hz and these two scenes look horrible because of the slow camera pan.


Casino Royale: 01:11:13

Red: 00:04:05

 

I was so excited to get a tv years ago that supported 24hz (120hz) because I could then watch movies at there native refresh rate or multiple. Then I realized I still got this shimmering effect on straight edged objects. I looked it up and came across this

 

http://www.projectorcentral.com/judder_24p.htm

The author goes on about judder but its not judder, 23.976 is too low for pans.

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post #14 of 20 Old 10-04-2012, 02:30 PM
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Yup - that's the exact scene (Casino Royale) I've been using as a benchmark... maybe that's a bad thing? If I watch the same scene @ 24p w/motionflow (FI), it looks perfectly smooth... jury is still out if 60p (3:2) w/motion flow is better or not for me.
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post #15 of 20 Old 10-16-2012, 12:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrkazador View Post

My tv and monitor can do 23.976hz and these two scenes look horrible because of the slow camera pan.


Casino Royale: 01:11:13
Red: 00:04:05

I was so excited to get a tv years ago that supported 24hz (120hz) because I could then watch movies at there native refresh rate or multiple. Then I realized I still got this shimmering effect on straight edged objects. I looked it up and came across this

http://www.projectorcentral.com/judder_24p.htm
The author goes on about judder but its not judder, 23.976 is too low for pans.

Finally got a hold of Casino Royale. In that scene I agree that it's not judder, but rather a strobe-like effect due to the low frame rate. From my experience, those sort of pans are very rare. Typically either motion is slow enough that 24 fps is fine or so fast that it just looks like a blur. I'm not a big fan of frame interpolation either, because while it may make those 2 seconds of Casino Royale look better, the rest of the movie look really odd. Just FYI, I use a shot at towards the beginning of The Social Network (00:05:33) to determine whether 24 hz content is being properly displayed. The difference there is quite dramatic.
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post #16 of 20 Old 10-16-2012, 12:38 PM
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I've left my HTPC at 50Hz as I watch a stack of 25Hz stuff. For the 23.976 I literally cannot see a difference (and the framerate is locked at 23.95 apparently). I could upgrade and slap in a GT 640 and fiddle around with custom resolutions for a while, but I can't see a point. Seriously, everyone should switch to 50Hz, its ridiculous that we have this problem due to last century decisions on the electrical grid (or whatever it was).
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post #17 of 20 Old 10-16-2012, 01:28 PM
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Slow camera pans look that way in the theater too. It is a function of the frame rate created 100+ years abo when motion pictures were first invented. If I don't see it when playing back a movie on my HT, I'm upset because I grew up with film sources and not video sources at 60fps and higher.

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post #18 of 20 Old 10-16-2012, 04:56 PM
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I have a gt430 and a panasonic gt50 plasma that has a 60hz smooth cinema mode that is supposed to make things about as smooth as the vt50 with 96hz mode when you send it a 24hz signal. Problem is , the nvidia card matched to power dvd 12 just seems to drop too many frames. Its not the end of the world but I prefer to just set my card to 60hz and deal with the occassional judder. Truth be told, when I use my standalone blu ray player set to 24hz, I don't notice a huge difference. As others have stated, 24hz (or 23.xxx rather) still has judder because that low of a frame rate simply is too slow for panning shots. The perfectionist in me would like to see nvidia get this hadled, but its really not that big of an issue to me and I would be hard pressed to really be able to tell the difference. Has anyone with a gt430 and power dvd 12 gotten 23.xxx to work?

Btw. Is there a reason why 24hz 3d from my gt430 runs w/ no dropped frames and pretty damn smooth, while any combination in 2d drops frames?
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post #19 of 20 Old 10-17-2012, 07:23 AM
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7) Those who don't care and just set their HTPC to 60Hz because their display will do reverse 3:2 pulldown and display it properly without having to bother with setting their HTPC to 24Hz
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post #20 of 20 Old 10-17-2012, 09:59 AM
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I'm aware of it and have seen it but simply got used to it where it doesn't bother me. I used to be into high end audio to the point where every miniscule change in the sound of my system made me absolutely crazy. I got to where I was concentrating so hard on getting the sound right that I could no longer feel the joy in the music, which is what attracted me to high end audio in the first place. Perfection isn't all that it's cracked up to be. If you can find an easy cure, then go for it. If it's something you dwell on then I say walk away or learn to live with it. Why waste time chasing the Holy Grail when you can spend that time enjoying a good movie or sound recording? Life's too short.wink.gif
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