The case for a 16:9 specific one-click zoom+crop button in Video encoders: - AVS Forum
View Poll Results: Do you encode files specifically for different devices?
16:9 - Laptop / Desktop 0 0%
16:9 - Smart Phone 1 33.33%
16:9 - Tablet 1 33.33%
16:9 - Flatscreen TV 0 0%
16:9 - iPhone 5 1 33.33%
16:10 - high end computer monitors 0 0%
other ratio: older iPhones 0 0%
other ratio: Apple tablet 0 0%
other ratio: older Computers 0 0%
other ratio: device not in the list 0 0%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 3. You may not vote on this poll

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post #1 of 37 Old 10-18-2012, 10:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Why?

1) We're not talking about cropping your master file of the video! This is a purpose bound encode for use with specific displays.
2) Many could care less how it was "meant" to be seen, they have their own ideas.
3) Many portable screens are too small to waste space on black borders and most of the movie's action happens close enough to the center of the image, that the tradeoff is easily worth it.
4) While some Video players or Televisions do a perfectly good job of 'zoom + crop' to fit without distortion, a lot of them don't.
5) It reduces the overall image size to that part which you actually need, allowing better quality at lower file sizes for portable use.



So, why is Windows Media Player Classic perfectly capable of properly zooming and cropping video to fill the screen without distortion, and Video encoders are incapable to do that without a LOT of fumbling?
On Media Player Classic, I just hit one menu option, 2 clicks! that's it - perfect every time. No black bars, no distortion. What is the magic that Handbreak and everybody else, including Xmedia, Freemaker etc can't duplicate?


Is it only cause they have the attitude of "oh why would you ever want to do that? It wasn't meant to be seen like that."

Did they not think that people will create different files for different devices as needed?


As for watching a movie in 2.4:1 or such, unless you spend a LOT of cash on an overpriced, comparatively small, specialized TV from Philips or some other rare bird TV, you're stuck with 16:9 like everybody else. You can call 16:9 arbitrary and contrived all you want, but that's the display ratio we got on Televisions, Computers and mobile devices (excluding a few Apple devices). That pretty much makes it the standard, and any other ratio is just as contrived, even if they created them over the years to account for various technical issues for shooting and distributing films.

So, given that 16:9 is the de-facto standard for 98% of all displays consumers have access to purchase in 2012, shouldn't that warrant a specific one-click zoom+crop setting that actually works? Programmatically, it can't be that hard: zoom to fill the screen vertically, then cut off left and right excess.

Handbreak's controls actually look like the program could actually do that at least with a few clicks, choosing the aspect ratio and setting crop. But it doesn't work, I have to use manual settings every time if I want it to come out correctly.
Freemaker offers a "Zoom + Crop" feature with no manual settings at all. I thought: oh, nice, they will automatically zoom and crop to the resolution and aspect you've chosen.. but no. It doesn't work at all, black bars remain.


EDIT: You might be tempted to answer: "oh, its difficult cause there are so many different aspect ratios even on BD films." Then, if its so difficult, why can Microsoft's Classic Player handle it every time?
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post #2 of 37 Old 10-18-2012, 10:07 AM - Thread Starter
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This post to add any options I find that work well for this
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post #3 of 37 Old 10-18-2012, 10:35 AM
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Microsoft has nothing to do with Media Player Classic. It is in no way affiliated with Microsoft.

If you want to chop off part of the picture, the easiest way to do it on a tv is to adjust your tv's zoom settings. Never really tried watching anything on a portable device. Most probably have some sort of adjustable zoom settings, no?

I wouldn't change the aspect ratio if I was doing it.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by pittsoccer33 View Post

Microsoft has nothing to do with Media Player Classic. It is in no way affiliated with Microsoft.
If you want to chop off part of the picture, the easiest way to do it on a tv is to adjust your tv's zoom settings. Never really tried watching anything on a portable device. Most probably have some sort of adjustable zoom settings, no?
I wouldn't change the aspect ratio if I was doing it.

Yeah I thought there was a way to zoom on both iOS and android. iOS you double tap and Android there's a button.
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post #5 of 37 Old 10-18-2012, 10:49 AM
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For MX Video player on Android you can definitely zoom to crop if you want. Just checked it.

Leaving the black bars would also give you a lower overall bitrate if that is important to your mobile playback device.

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post #6 of 37 Old 10-18-2012, 10:53 AM
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Am I missing something here?

Handbrake anyone?

Just click your display

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post #7 of 37 Old 10-18-2012, 10:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pittsoccer33 View Post

If you want to chop off part of the picture, the easiest way to do it on a tv is to adjust your tv's zoom settings.
My apologies if the post was too long to read through... A lot of displays either don't have zooming or do it badly.

.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pittsoccer33 View Post

Never really tried watching anything on a portable device.
Yeah, that being the main point of this thread.

You get worthwhile benefits with encoding a custom file:

1) smaller file size with
2) better picture quality
3) no real-time zooming degradation
4) no worry if your favorite device or software player actually does zoom (which many don't)



Now, I can see how you might not care much, if you spend most of your time in your living room and don't have to travel a lot. You might also own a 60" Flatscreen, which still gives a large enough picture even when losing 1/3 of the screen to black borders.


EDIT: Media Player Classic fooled me, cause it looks exactly like M$' old Media Player...
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post #8 of 37 Old 10-18-2012, 10:57 AM
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This is how I do it. I encode for iphone or droid all the time. It's easy.

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post #9 of 37 Old 10-18-2012, 11:00 AM
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But mfusick it won't crop by doing that, will it?

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post #10 of 37 Old 10-18-2012, 11:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lockdown571 View Post

Yeah I thought there was a way to zoom on both iOS and android. iOS you double tap and Android there's a button.

Thats if you use the default player, and also with some of the app store players, but some of them will not even play back certain files.

Scaling also creates ugly artifacts and sometimes tearing. To minimize artifacts, you'd have to encode the video in a higher resolution than what the screen really needs, which is a waste of limited storage space and bandwidth.
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post #11 of 37 Old 10-18-2012, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post


This is how I do it. I encode for iphone or droid all the time. It's easy.

I take right off the higher resolution 720p or 1080p mkv I have and just change it to whatever resolution and aspect I want.

Example: Iphone or Droid. they have different resolution screens.

Handbrake allows you presets (custom too) for each device or display you want. It has presets already built in for most cell phones or pads too.

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post #12 of 37 Old 10-18-2012, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by pittsoccer33 View Post

But mfusick it won't crop by doing that, will it?


Sure it will.

Just check or uncheck the maintain aspect ratio box for your desired result

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post #13 of 37 Old 10-18-2012, 11:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pittsoccer33 View Post

For MX Video player on Android you can definitely zoom to crop if you want. Just checked it.
Leaving the black bars would also give you a lower overall bitrate if that is important to your mobile playback device.

File size is usually paramount. These days, playback performance is sufficient to play native device resolution smoothly without needing the 'mitigation' of black borders, unless you want to zoom in real time.

You're much better off encoding for the exact resolution of the device and zoom/crop it properly to boot, to avoid scaling artifacts.
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post #14 of 37 Old 10-18-2012, 11:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pittsoccer33 View Post

But mfusick it won't crop by doing that, will it?




You can choose if you want nothing cropped or you want something cropped.

You can maintain aspect or change it too.

Your choice.

If your encoding for a specific popular device there is probably already a preset for it. (Example iphone 4s or Droid)

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post #15 of 37 Old 10-18-2012, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N13L5 View Post

File size is usually paramount. These days, playback performance is sufficient to play native device resolution smoothly without needing the 'mitigation' of black borders, unless you want to zoom in real time.
You're much better off encoding for the exact resolution of the device and zoom/crop it properly to boot, to avoid scaling artifacts.

Exactly. Change the apsect and resolution to match your exact playback device and shrink the file size to fit more easily on the device and take up less storage room.

Handbrake does all that.

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post #16 of 37 Old 10-18-2012, 11:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

Sure it will.
Just check or uncheck the maintain aspect ratio box for your desired result

Thanks for giving a practical answer, rather than arguing that there's no need to do this!


Here is the problem:

If you uncheck the 'maintain aspect ratio' button, it will crop the black borders but squash the picture.

If you keep 'maintain aspect ratio' checked, it will not crop the black borders.


The idea is to crop the black borders AND retain aspect ratio of 16:9, by automatically cropping the sides as needed to arrive at 16:9


Now, if I go into custom settings, I can get it to where everything looks perfect in the preview, and after rendering the movie, its off anyway. Out of every 3 I tried, only one seems to come out right, after application of meticulous manual settings.
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post #17 of 37 Old 10-18-2012, 11:20 AM
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I think the OP is one of those strange characters I don't understand that actually wants to remove the bars on the 2:35 movie to make it 16:9 and exactly fill his screen.

But, he does not understand this will either stretch or crop the picture and thus lower the picture quality, make it look funny, or cut of the edges and sides to remove the bars top and bottom.

It's best to watch the movie on a TV the way it was filmed. Bars are ok with me since they provide the highest level of picture quality and display all the the picture without cropping anything so I don't see it.

OP is asking for something that should not exist, and basically does not because anyone that has a high understanding or caring about this subject knows why the original aspect is best best choice.

OP Reminds me of when widescreen came out and people complained about the black bars on square TV's when I was selling TUBE SDTV's for Circuit City back in late 90's and early 2000's

I thought he was asking for a way to watch a movie on a device like a phone or something.

I realize he might just want to watch on his living room TV, and I personally would not bother encoding my entire collection for that.

I don't want a performance penalty on my main display or system- but I don't mind on my cell phone since it's not critical viewing.

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post #18 of 37 Old 10-18-2012, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N13L5 View Post

Thanks for giving a practical answer, rather than arguing that there's no need to do this!

Lol. You spoke too soon.

I was typing that as you wrote this. haha.

Really once you learn the original aspect is best and why- you might change your tune.

But if you really want to change the video to a resolution to match a display I find handbrake is the best solution. It can take a bit of time with a not so powerful PC.

My i7 overclocked eats it up fast, but I would hate to do an entire collection on a basic system.

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post #19 of 37 Old 10-18-2012, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N13L5 View Post

Thanks for giving a practical answer, rather than arguing that there's no need to do this!
Here is the problem:
If you uncheck the 'maintain aspect ratio' button, it will crop the black borders but squash the picture.
If you keep 'maintain aspect ratio' checked, it will not crop the black borders.
The idea is to crop the black borders AND retain aspect ratio of 16:9, by automatically cropping the sides as needed to arrive at 16:9
Now, if I go into custom settings, I can get it to where everything looks perfect in the preview, and after rendering the movie, its off anyway. Out of every 3 I tried, only one seems to come out right, after application of meticulous manual settings.

yeah you need to use a custom setting to do that.

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post #20 of 37 Old 10-18-2012, 11:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

yeah you need to use a custom setting to do that.

And the custom settings are finicky.


As for "original aspect ratio is best", thats only true on a very large screen if your screen ratio doesn't match.


What I'm really saying is, with 98% of all displays being 16:9, Encoder software should not make you fumble to cut stuff to this size.

Like I said: they can include a warning that you shouldn't do this to your master file...

But on portable devices with small screens (yes, you understood correctly, thats what I was asking for) its a huge benefit to resize, as listed earlier.

And you have to ask yourself: would you rather be able to see the faces of the actors well, or the bokeh at the left and right edges?
I studied oil painting and design, I know framing is important, but framing works in all kinds of aspect ratios. Futher: Films are shot knowing that it will eventually go to less wide media, so the very left and right edges never contain information critical to the movie, its just there to add to atmosphere and immersion.
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post #21 of 37 Old 10-18-2012, 12:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

My i7 overclocked eats it up fast.

Yes, an i7-3770K with SSD cut it down to ~25 minutes per movie for me in Xmedia or Handbrake.

Freemaker is even better in the speed department, cause it uses the Cuda cores of my GTX 680 GPU, cutting an H264 MP4 DVD encode down to ~8 minutes.


Anyway, I go traveling very often, sometimes cause I want to, sometimes cause I must. The less space I waste, the more movies I can take. And encoded in native device resolution, they are small and look by far the sharpest.
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post #22 of 37 Old 10-18-2012, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N13L5 View Post

And you have to ask yourself: would you rather be able to see the faces of the actors well, or the bokeh at the left and right edges?

I would rather watch the whole movie than part of it.
Quote:
I studied oil painting and design, I know framing is important, but framing works in all kinds of aspect ratios. Futher: Films are shot knowing that it will eventually go to less wide media, so the very left and right edges never contain information critical to the movie, its just there to add to atmosphere and immersion.

Some notable directors/producers would disagree with you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5m1-pP1-5K8

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #23 of 37 Old 10-18-2012, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N13L5 View Post

Futher: Films are shot knowing that it will eventually go to less wide media, so the very left and right edges never contain information critical to the movie, its just there to add to atmosphere and immersion.

The Video stanger89 posted disagrees, especially timestamps 2:40, 3:10, and 4:18.

Looky here!
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post #24 of 37 Old 10-18-2012, 01:56 PM
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Er, why? Films shot at 2:40:1 or whatever are supposed to viewed that way. The last thing I want to do is fiddle with the AR, matted black bars are supposed to be there on a 1:78:1 screen. If anything blame all these new crap gadgets. I don't have a tablet or a $600 phone and have no need for them. If I watch a film its on a TV not on a tiny 5" or 10" screen.
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post #25 of 37 Old 10-18-2012, 01:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Some notable directors/producers would disagree with you

There will always be somebody to disagree with anything, there's >6 billion people on the planet.

In the same way, there will always be a people who agree with you - its a wash. And the word of a 'notable' or a beggar is worth the same to me: I will listen to either and then make my own decision.

Same reason everybody likes some directors but not others...



I find this whole argument over 'you should crop' or 'you shouldn't crop' idiotic, because it amounts to you telling other people to do it your way.
How about just assisting people with what they want, or else, go look for a thread where people talk about wanting to keep the original ratio at all costs.


Its selfish and unreasonable to tell other people to follow your personal preference, no matter how many friends or notables you can call up who share your opinion.
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post #26 of 37 Old 10-18-2012, 04:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N13L5 View Post

There will always be somebody to disagree with anything, there's >6 billion people on the planet.

Most of those >6 billion people don't make the movies you watch.
Quote:
In the same way, there will always be a people who agree with you - its a wash. And the word of a 'notable' or a beggar is worth the same to me: I will listen to either and then make my own decision.
Same reason everybody likes some directors but not others...

The point is directors choose a given aspect ratio for a reason, and are not "shot knowing that it will eventually go to less wide media, so the very left and right edges never contain information critical to the movie, its just there to add to atmosphere and immersion." Film makers choose wide aspect ratios because they're wider and they want to use that space.

I was not saying you're wrong for cropping, that's up to you, I was saying you're wrong stating that nobody puts important info toward the edges.
Quote:
I find this whole argument over 'you should crop' or 'you shouldn't crop' idiotic, because it amounts to you telling other people to do it your way.
How about just assisting people with what they want, or else, go look for a thread where people talk about wanting to keep the original ratio at all costs.
Its selfish and unreasonable to tell other people to follow your personal preference, no matter how many friends or notables you can call up who share your opinion.

It's not my personal opinion, it's the opinion of the people who created the very films you're wanting to crop.

Again, I don't care what you do with your rips, but it's just inaccurate to say that there's noting important on the sides or that movies are made to be cropped, they're not.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #27 of 37 Old 10-18-2012, 09:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N13L5 View Post

There will always be somebody to disagree with anything, there's >6 billion people on the planet.
In the same way, there will always be a people who agree with you - its a wash. And the word of a 'notable' or a beggar is worth the same to me: I will listen to either and then make my own decision.
Same reason everybody likes some directors but not others...
I find this whole argument over 'you should crop' or 'you shouldn't crop' idiotic, because it amounts to you telling other people to do it your way.
How about just assisting people with what they want, or else, go look for a thread where people talk about wanting to keep the original ratio at all costs.
Its selfish and unreasonable to tell other people to follow your personal preference, no matter how many friends or notables you can call up who share your opinion.

You're that guy that walks into a Michelin rated restaurant and asks for ketchup aren't you?

Looky here!
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post #28 of 37 Old 10-18-2012, 11:18 PM
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You're that guy that walks into a Michelin rated restaurant and asks for ketchup aren't you?

And brings a few 40oz of OE HG too.
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post #29 of 37 Old 10-19-2012, 12:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

It's not my personal opinion, it's the opinion of the people who created the very films you're wanting to crop.

Ahh, so its not your personal opinion, you're arguing for someone else's personal opinion...

Or, that the original designer's/director's/cameraman's idea is holy and can't be touched. Well, I paid for it and I can do damned well what I please with it for my mobile devices.

Talking to purists is like talking to Apple fanbois, they just won't leave it be.


This stupid contest basically amounts to hijacking the thread.
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post #30 of 37 Old 10-19-2012, 12:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robnix View Post

You're that guy that walks into a Michelin rated restaurant and asks for ketchup aren't you?

We're getting to personal attacks now, eh?

All just because you MUST be right and the other person wrong...

I don't eat ketchup or any other ready-made sauces, I cook very well, and I haven't been to a Michelin restaurant in ages.



There is no wrong or right with this. If you want to crop for small screens on mobile devices, its just practical and furthermore everybody's right to follow their own preference.

Where did I tell you that You must crop your movies? Nowhere, so give me a break and go stink up the area somewhere else.
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